Independent Fundamental Baptist Deception

I am very happy that you have created this web site and exposing the legalistic independent fundamental baptist denomination, as I call them, to who they really are. I am very sorry you went through all of that with this movement. The IFB are definately set in their ways. I want you to know that I am on your side, unlike those other people, who commented on here. I have been to web site such as http://www.av1611.org and http://www.jesus-is-savior.com and they attack any christian who are non-kjv only. av1611.org, the person who runs that site, slanders CCM artists and claims that they are both under the influnce of, and are tools of satan.
They slander Michael W. Smith, Third Day, Point of Grace, Steve Green, Sandy Patty, Amy Grant and jesus-is-savior.com does the same thing to Mercy Me.

Have you heard of these bible colleges, Pensacola Christian College, Hyles-Anderson College, Crown College and others? Please resond to my comment. Like I said, I agree with you about as I call them, the legalistic independent baptist movement. There is even this cocky, prideful, arrogant, “preacher” who pastors an IFB church in the Phoenix, Arizona area, who preached an entire sermon entitled, “Why Billy Graham is going to hell”.

I totally agree. I also grew up in this type of church, am now 23, & have found myself pulling away from the Bible as a help tool/guide because of such experiences you describe. That analogy helps me greatly & gives me hope that I can look beyond what I’ve been “taught” and see what God is trying to teach me.

As for Brian’s comment…my sister went to Crown College near Knoxville, TN, and he is right. They focus way to much on things that DO NOT MATTER (length of skirt, no flip flops, long hair????), and the people there [as well as my home church] honestly do not care about you as a person–putting themselves above you, judging you if you do not act as they act, dress as they dress, do what they do. There is definitely a sense of pride in it as well…as if they are proud of their ignorance. They don’t want to know the truth. They don’t want to grow in the Lord. They don’t want to be a help to others.

To all who read this: PLEASE pray for my family & me, that we may truly seek God and not get caught up in the ignorant beliefs we are surrounded by and raised in…That we have a healthy hunger for God, questioning to find the truth…That we not get caught up in religion but get caught up in God.

While I agree with much of what you are saying, you over generalize Baptist churches in your descriptions…severely. I have lived in several states and attended at least 30 Baptist churches in my lifetime and the type of church you are referring to only makes up 3 or 4 of them. While IFB churches can be and many are like what you are describing, it does not make up anywhere near the majority of Baptist churches in general. IFB churches are a small portion of the total Baptist churches and choose that name in large part because they want to seperate themselves from other Baptist churches.

I am sorry about the struggles you have been through and pray you get through them. We just have to be careful how we describe these situations because of the immense emotion involved. It is not fair to group all Baptists in with them.

Site Admin wrote a response: I actually haven’t made any generalizations. I state quite clearly in the third paragraph above “I will let you, the reader, determine which applies to you and your unique situation.” I also state very clearly that I’m speaking from my experiences. This site is about my experience and what I find dangerous about the IFB, nothing more. Please read the site before making assumptions. Thanks

This is a comment on the Administrator’s comment to Ike (Discussion with Ike has been moved to Here). All I can say is Amen, Amen, and Amen! Keep up the awesome work of giving your time to expose the stiff-face, “see something wrong with everything that does not look religious” Pharisee movement – the Pharisee was alive and well on earth when Jesus was here, and unfortunately that same spirit never died. God bless you

I’m really happy that you took the time to make sure others will hear about your experience. I strongly agree that most Fundamental Baptist are Pharisees. I’m speaking of the management and the staff not so much about the poor people they mislead and control. I spent part of my life in a Baptist Church and can testify of their abuse and mind control that is so far from the loving grace of God, His salvation and freedom. They have captured my sister’s brain and free-will alienating her from those who love and care for her. Stay away from this self-righteous cult and embrace God’s love!!!

I have been in an IFB church for 12 years. I am a student of the scriptures and always follow the lead of the Berean Christians in Acts 17. Please give me some examples of what I should be watching out for and the accompanying Bible references. I am always willing to rethink my beliefs if I am given Bible truth to judge them by. Thanks!

I am grateful for your site. My daughter (age 32) & her husband & their children are currently steeped in an IFB church that has caused them to turn against everyone in our family. They confronted us about the NIV and the praise music at my church…etc.. and we all refused to change. There was no success in arguing…they seemed to use some scripture or other, out of context to counter everything we said. Other judgemental and tragic events happened and after just 3 years, we’ve all recently received notification by email or letter that we are no longer to contact them in any way because we are “toxic” to them. For me, that means I will not see my grandchildren! They are planning to homeschool their young children, and haven’t even gotten any immunizations or medical care. My daughter gave birth at home with a mid-wife only. They have rejected most traditional medicine. They are extreme in discipline with 2 little girls aged 2 & 4. No TV, no pants for females, etc…. It is very sad and frustrating for our family. We don’t know what to do…besides prayer of course!…but we fear that they could be trapped in this church for years!!!!! Thanks again for your website, it has helped me to understand the problem a little better.

Really appreciate this site. I once had an intimate relationship with the Lord and was very happy, but then I started attending an IFB church and was made to feel like God was always made at me and never approved of me, my spiritual life has dried up, I no longer attend any church, and there are many painful associations between the Bible and church. I miss my walk with the Lord.

It is a shame to see how much the IFB churches have sunk into legalism and control. The truth is I know more that are the way you describe than not. Yet I know many who have moved more to center in the last years. I would like to think that the church I pastor is more like the latter than the former.

Hello I need help in the worse way and I hope you can answer me today. Heres the story a family Im fond of were praticing Lutherns very very inept in helping the church and seeminly very good people. One day a fella who was a graduate of a known IFBC Midwestern College had knocked on their door and invited them to a church he recently opened in a public meeting room. Since this time they have changed dramitically, there children are not allowed to watch Disney movies or attend Disneyland. The woman now seems to wear her shirts above her collar bone. They are now bothering their neighbors whom have Barrack Obama pictures in their windows and are recommending that his picture be taken down and a picture of Jesus be put up.Im afraid now that the minister is trying to convince them to sell their house. WHATS GOING ON HERE

@BILLY

What do you by them being “very inept in helping the church?” It seems like you were bragging on them, but “inept” means “incompetent.” Typo maybe?

Anyhow, Why do you think the pastor wants them to sell their house? I’m IFB myself, but I admit, that did raise an eyebrow.

The other things you mentioned, however, don’t seem like much reason for alarm, when you consider them individually.

1. As far as Disney goes, the Southern Baptist Convention (a mainstream denomination) boycotted Disney for years.

2. A married woman wearing less-revealing clothing certainly doesn’t hurt the cause of Christ. But maybe there’s more to the story than that? I mean, I knew a family who enforced a 2-finger rule on their daughters’ clothing (their shirt collars couldn’t be lower than the width of 2 fingers from the collar bone). Now, they didn’t impose that rule on anybody else, but I did think it was weird.

3. I’d much rather look at Jesus than Obama, McCain, Palin or any other politician. Maybe they just want a better role model for their children? Again, maybe you can tell me more about the situation.

Sigh* Wow. This is an amazing article for me. I have been a member of an IFB church for 14 years and it is definitely an abusive one. It really shook my faith to come to this conclusion and I searched the scriptures diligently, fasted and prayed, and double checked everything I was taught.

I can tell you that I love the people in the church and endeared the pastor as a spiritual father and named two of my children after two of his family members. I do not regret that, and I still pray for him.

Yet when you realize you have been taught false doctrine by people you have trusted, it really hits with a big blow. Most people really are just deceived and don’t intend it on purpose. I can forgive those who taught me wrong, however I know what is taught when a member leaves the church. They teach you not to have fellowship with them anymore. They also strictly forbid that you ask them why they left.

I have watched several couples whom I trusted for spiritual guidance leave and not tell us why. THAT was hard. Leaving a cult you were deceived in for a length of time is difficult and we have not even broke free all the way yet. We covet your prayers in this.

I have met many, many fabulous people from IFB churches, some of which spoke such incredible truth that my entire life was changed. However they don’t believe in having elders and don’t welcome correction very well in leadership. This is where the Enemy puts his stronghold in the lives of leadership, they become proud and don’t take correction or disagreement very well at all.

They are adamant in leading souls to Christ for which I am thankful, however many times the decision is under coercion and confrontation which brings a false conversion. I used to think an abrupt departure was best to get out of a cult, but it depends on the situation. Now I think slowly and gradually can be good. Most people don’t notice when you slip out quietly. Much easier. Yet always still difficult.

There was a time when I would have laughed at someone if they said my church was a cult. Now I know the truth. Someone must have been praying for us. :O)

I grew up in an IFB church. My parents, siblings were all members for 20 years. I was 27 when we left so it was basically all I knew of church. Though when we were in it you couldn’t have convinced us that we were in a cult like church or a church where spiritual abuse was running wild, after we got kicked out on our heads we saw it for what it was. The only type of people that come and stay are those that are very needy and those who are baby Christians. I could list them by name and my family was one that was needy at the time my parents joined. The pastor is “God” and so you don’t question ANYTHING outwardly even though so many things don’t add up or make sense or just are not right. There were no deacons or trustees or any other people in leadership. All of the men are pansy “yes men”. The problem was ALWAYS in the pew and was never behind the pulpit. If we thought the church was dead, we were the ones that were dead. Unless you gave more every year to missions you weren’t spiritual or trusting God enough. Before special offerings(which were in addition to the regular offering) that were at the end of NEARLY EVERY service the phrase, “what God doesn’t get on Sunday, the devil WILL get on Monday” was made. My mother was to the point of feeling bad about spending $1 on a soda during the week!!!! We were being sucked DRY! An elderly woman that was our friend and also left when we did was giving out of her savings because there was so much pressure to GIVE MORE! I could go on for 3 hours about all that was “normal” there. It is very painful to suddenly lose people that you cared for and were friends with and that respected you. They no longer want anything to do with us…we’ve fallen you see. The pastor could NEVER actually be WRONG so they wouldn’t even ask what we had to say about the situation. What “pastor” says is absolutely true. Whether the members fully realize it or not they ARE eagerly awaiting all of my family’s demise. I know, I was one of them. They are right about everything, they have, know and do all truth. They are superior to EVERYONE. There is none more righteous or closer to God then they; seriously, that IS the thinking. They condemn and criticize EVERYONE and EVERYTHING. They control you through FEAR. To keep you there you are reminded of those whose lives have fallen apart after leaving…there was a list given from time to time of those who left and were now dead, out of church, divorced, sick, in jail or whatever. They destroy with their mouths those who don’t line up with them…I watched this over and over. With my family letters were sent out to those we knew to tell them “the truth” about what happened. You have NO say in anything. If you dare speak up you will be humiliated publicly. Being outwardly “right” is more important than being inwardly right. THEY ARE PHARISEES! They are EXTREMELY arrogant because they “have, know and do all of the truth”. Every preacher or author “on the outside” is wrong, liberal, or an apostate. Anyone in any other kind of church are in a “so called church.” The ONLY godly music was the hymns sung in church or the cheesy, generic, off tune music of those that came through to sing and had made CDs. Soundtracks were a no-no. Sure, the outside of their cup is gleaming, but the inside is full of stinky old milk. Their “Christianity” is disgusting. I’ve done the research, we WERE in a cult like church and a church filled with spiritual abuse. I’ll not say that all Independent Baptist churches are cult like, they are not but that one was and I wouldn’t wish my worst enemy to get sucked into that place. Once you are in you can’t get out unless you dare question or confront the pastor on SIN. Painful though it was it is the best thing that could have happened to my family. Thanks for reading.

Amen…I currently attend a church in Colorado Springs, CO., where opinion and personal preference seem to take preeminance over Christ’s Doctrine. I have been there for almost 3yrs and realize that the Church’s spiritualiy has not grown, nor the number of converts, yet we claim to be the only church in the city that God is using. I have heard preaching against public school kids, inter-racial marriages(in which I have one), people putting there very lives in risk of car-accidents, and heart failure if one was to ever leave the church. I too have heard preaching against any other version of the bible (though I believe for textual reliablility for the English speaking language the KJV is acurate)and that one can not be saved outside of the KJV(wait sorry KJB). I’ve heard that Jesus Christ the God incarnate, the Lord and Saviour is a “Baptist” and anyone who is not a true Baptist will not be part of the Bride of Christ but will for eternity wonder outside the New Jerusalem(explain that one)….Period…Women can not wear denim dresses,, we ought to look like IFBC< so we should were White shirts and black ties or singular colored ties. “Fasting is not a Doctrine that is commonly preached if ever in our church????? Seperation has to do more with Dress and Music rather than, seperation unto spiritual Holyness and spiritual discernment??? I’ve noticed that Gossip is a huge thing among even the so called respected wives of those men who hold positions. The one I suppose thet gets me the most is this one.. Do not dare go against God’s annointed..or Hey if you don’t like it take it up with God, He wrote the bible not me. Like it or Lump it. Even though Soul Liberty is a Docrine of the Baptist Church, dare one get the boldness to actually live it in truth and Grace. Eveyone seems to either be called to be a preacher or pastors wife or missionary or missionay’s wife. I recently noticed in the last two years of the Seniors graduating class from Cornerstone Baptist Academy, that they seem to be turning away from God instead of wanting to serve him. Tithe and Curses go hand in hand in the preaching of stewerdship. We preach Grace to get them in but Law to try and disciple them. Several times have my wife and I had several concerns that we had council on and in the meetings the Love seemed overflowing and accepting of our concerns, but come sunday night,,,”goodnight” it was amunition for a series of sermons for the “church” a way to say…this is what I really think about your concerns. I just fill that the Zeal is there, but it is not driven by the Grace of God and Law of liberty. Rather being perfect in our own eyes and IFBC standards rather than being perfect in obedience to Christ. Please let me know what to do. Because I feel in my heart that God may want my family and I to move, but my wife just does not see it like I do.

Alvin, you and I attend the same church, and I must say, if you are not happy there, you should really leave. Your soul will not grow, nor your personal walk with God if you continue to attend a church that you do not agree with nor feel a part of. I am not saying this in judgement or harshly, or anything else. I used to attend every week, 3 or 4 times a week, but as you know, I have moved to Europe. However, I do look forward to attending CBC when I get back. Anyways, should you want to talk, my email address is amanda.frick@hotmail.com I can understand where you are coming from on many of your points!!

I came upon this website by accident and read over the comments on IFB churches. I have been an IFB for 40 years and I must say that the one thing I agreed with here is that many of our churches have become legalistic. I myself have been caught up in legalism before and still must fight the urge to be judgmental of others at times. I do not want to sound critical of anyone here but I must say however that I do agree with the standards and convictions of the IFB movement because we teach that Christ has called us to be a peculiar people. We are to be separate from the world. We are not to look like the world, act like the world, dress like the world—-I mean if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck then it is a duck. Are we Christians or are we still a part of this world? We live in the world but we are not to be a part of it. We teach that there must be a difference in us for others to see Christ. This difference comes first on the inside at the time of regeneration and then IT WILL show on the outside. If we as Christians listen to certain types of music, wear certain clothing, or participate in certain activities that appeal to the flesh or appear worldly then we are not in close fellowship with God as we should be. When the flesh wins the spirit loses! I do agree that our pulpits should not be used as a chopping block so to speak. I have known many preachers who acted horrible and offended lost people who may have never gotten saved because of their experience in an IFBC. We as Christians however must grow and realize that as the Bible says—Perfect peace have they which love Thy law and nothing shall offend them.

I have had my own negative experience with the fundamental baptist churches. I was a member of one for over 18 years. After coming to Christ, I now see how legalistic and shackling the fundamentalist movement is. These churches turn more people away from Christ than towards Christ. They forget about the Freedom that God brings. They forget that they cannot win God’s approval by their actions.

In the End of things we must agree to Search in finding Christ to serve ourselves. When it comes down to the brass tax of things we must realize who we serve and that is Christ Only. I believe that if we are to consumed and worried about not offending someone or a particular denomination than or focus is not on Christ, but on the preacher or the movement. Sould Liberty is what it boils down to. We must find true liberty in Christ ourselves rather than get to cought up in everything that is said behind the puplit especially preferrence over doctrine.

@Amanda Frick Hey, definitely, hit me back, for sure and we will discuss these matters.

@Linda
Hello. I am currently a member of a IFB church and you know I have seen in this church the translation struggle and the immunization problem and even the birth at home. What is this stuff and where is the origin?

I am a member of a IFB church and love it…I have been in one all my life…although some are legalistic, I have not had that experience. It is my desire and the desire of the majority of our congregation to grow closer and closer to Jesus….it is a personal walk with Christ. I love the fact that my first and only experience with church is the IFB Church…AMEN

God bless the person who has this site up!! It takes a lot of courage to speak out & I am glad that you have. Kudos to you & a hug too!

For over 19 years I was in a very abusive Landmark-Primitive-Baptist-Calvinist CULT. I started getting indoctrinated while still in college. When I joined it was a very vulnerable time in my young life. At that age, I was smart enough to see that the church I was raised in had problems & I believed there must be something better out there. But I was too young to realize that no “church” is perfect & there are often times no easy answers in life.

Anyhow, so so so thankful to the Creator that we escaped w/ our souls, lives & sanity. Walking away from the abuse was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done, but I knew God is so much bigger than that bullshit “true church”. The man of God (cough cough gag gag) was accountable to nobody. A one man show it was & still is. The “pastor” was perceived as “God’s mouthpiece” and God help anyone who would question, disagree or point out error….well, I should know, I was one of them. I began to think for myself & could no longer swallow the poison coming from the bully pulpit every sunday.

Oh…I was a “true believer”….I checked out my brains because I was constantly reminded of my “total depravity” and not to trust myself or my feelings. I had to be obedient & trust the *pastor* & his interpretations of the bible. Inside I felt something was wrong, but was told that my doubts were of the devil. Nothing like being told you are demon possessed to drive you over the edge…but I believe God was & is w/ me. I wouldn’t fall for the FEAR BS anymore. I’m a FREE creature under God. The leader is the master manipulator, using the “bible” to CONTROL people. FEAR reigns in that group. IMHO

There was so very much I was disagreeing w/…..I could no longer continue to support him, our integrity was at stake, so we quietly left. We never even gave a reason because we had tried to talk to xpastor & it was going nowhere. At every turn WE were the ones who were “wrong”…
WE were always the “problem”.
we were told the devil was causing us to doubt (since when is honestly questioning, evil????)
I was told to stuff it, I was yelled at & humiliated…
(people will often do pastor’s “dirty work” for him)
…..we realized that nothing would change his mind, so
why make a big deal, just walk away. and we did. thank God! Of course walking away isn’t really that easy when you are told that God might just KILL YOU for walking away from his “true church”.
It’s HORRIBLE psychological TERRORISM. Talk about using FEAR to CONTROL people & their lives!! Xpastor got up & LIED by yelling that “anyone is FREE to leave this church!” what a crock of shit….he JUDGES YOU & tells you to “watch out for God’s fiery indignation…” I saw that he was totally being dishonest & I’m thinking does anyone else see what he just said as not being true???!
FREE to leave would be a hug & blessing in my book.

I wish I could go back in time, but I can’t. What a waste of 19 precious years to all of the legalism & spiritual abuse.

At the time, I wasn’t aware of truly what I was getting myself into….I got RE-baptised by pastorX because I was told
that my immersion baptism I received in college wasn’t “valid”. It never dawned on me that by being RE-baptised by him he’d have a hook in me & attempt to keep me trapped in his “church” my whole life!!!
I began to feel like i was in a prison…..it’s a very long story.

We gave our lives for that group & we were BETRAYED. Betrayed & hurt to the core of our (my husband & I) beings. I would never set foot inside any baptist church (cult). I am so at peace, I believe God still loves me. I’m good w/ God…but religion sucks.

Just my opinion from my personal IFB HELL experience of over 19 years. I can so relate to this quote by Pascal,
“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.” I may put some of my “story” here at a later time.
Thanks for letting others & myself speak out.
And for anyone struggling w/ abusive religion, my advice is GET OUT!!
God will NOT be angry with you. You have FREEDOM in Christ. Don’t let some power crazed narcissist supposed “pastor” “lord it over” or have “dominion” over your faith & your relationship w/ your creator.
It wont be easy, but God will be with you & don’t be too hard on yourself. The abusive leaders/pastor are taskmasters that you will NEVER be able to do enough for, but GOD is NOT like the abusive leaders.
REST & GO in PEACE.
April

I was raised up in a very legalistic UPC church. I was saved at 17 at a southern Baptist church. I married a man who was saved into a IFB church. We are a military family so we have to travel and move around quite often. I was encouraged not to put the Man of God above God by my southern baptist pastor. That has helped me to see that All men everyone of us sin and are sinners. Saved and unsaved no sin is any bigger and we need grace. I can tell you that I have found Good Independant Babtist churches. They love people and love the Lord. They do practice the King James Bible, I do also . Mainly because I was shown were NIV does leave out certain verses pertaining to salvation. How ever I do not believe that only KJV people are true christians. It is what I do because I like those verses they help me tell people about Christ loving them .

After reading these comments my heart goes out to those that have been so horribly hurt. I am an ordained Evangelist Minister in an IFBC. I have seen most if not all of what has been described here. However, let me say this, these things are found in all religions. The Church I minister in and out of makes every effort not to be ligalistic or condeming. After all we are all just sinners saved by Grace. My I caution each and every one of you to pray God lead you to a Bible beleiving Church. I use the KJV because of the beauty of the language. I do not object to your reading any version you like. However for clarity and understanding I would recomend all members follow along with the same version being studied, taught and preached from.

Any pastor or teacher worth their position should be well enough studied to clearify any confusion. Men in any teaching or preaching position should never point fingers at anyone without realising the three fingers pointing at themselves. Christ is the head of the Church! No one else should ever think they are.

Please continue to pray God lead you to a Church where you can serve and be served. Time is moving on and things do not look good for America or the world. People need the Lord. Christ is our only real hope.

I have and will continue to pray for the spirtual healing we all need.

My god richly bless you all.

In Christ’s Love
Bro. Graham

@Debbie
Please consider reading my comment #24

I went to a church tonight and found out when there that it was an IFB church. I can sum up my experience in one word: “Oppressive”

Though they preached a correct message on salvation, I felt ashamed as a missionary, for all those peoples in the jungles of Panama I had preached to if ever they had to hear and listen to what I did tonight. Those poor people in the jungles come to church with little or nothing but a desire to know the truth. I sincerely do not believe these new converts on Panama would be welcome in the IFB church. How shameful to the name of Jesus. If a message preached in church cannot be preached to the poorest people elsewhere in the world, then such message should not be preached anywhere! Legalism is always wrong. The problem with legalism is that it is deceptive, especially deceiving those who adhere to its mandates.

@Alvin Jiron
In response to Alvin- my husband and I had a tough time reaching our conclusion- because quite frankly we were afaid we’d be cursed, but finally we decided it was best for our family that we leave. Every one in our family is much happier. We found a church that we like, however, we are a bit reluctant to join one at this point. We can look back now and see tons of manipulative tactics that we did not recognize at the time. Can’t tell you what to do except to not be afraid to question some of the things you are being taught. You are not questioning God or His sovereignty, you are questioning man’s philosophy. It is okay to test and see if those things are Biblical.

@Lori
Lori, I was in a church similar to that in Dillon, MT. Do you mind telling me the name or where that church was? Thanks,Tom

This post has been moved to the “Emails Received” page.

@Lani
Lani, I truly believe the Lord hears your heart’s cry, I really do.

Thank you so much for this site. Last year at age 41 I suddenly saw clearly the extent of the mental and emotional abuse perpetrated by my mother, who got into the church, and forced me to go three times a week starting from when I was about 12 years old.

My mother’s belligerent and judgemental way with me, my father, and anyone who did not meet her church’s standards was horrid, ugly, rude, and extremely damaging and hurtful. She destroyed her marriage and alienated her daughter with this behavior. Turned the home into a battle zone, while proclaiming self-righteous innocence. I had mental health issues in my twenties and was hospitalized off and on for a few years. The mind-f**k stuff (from both parents) finally coming to bear. How can you reason with someone who doesn’t think you have a right to your own opinions and beliefs? Why would you bother to try?

My struggle has been with my mother and her behavior which continues to this day. Judgmental, not listening, active FORGETTING what does not fit into her schema, (four times I’d told her I’d gotten saved and she forgot each time…because when I didn’t do exactly what she thought I should, in her mind, meant I wasn’t saved…the last time was for putting an unwashed dish in the sink). Ultimately, she rejected me when I finally called her on her s**t. I felt so liberated! Wait, you mean not having any relationship is an option? Thank you!

Months later, she’s apologized for what went down when I was a kid, and wants to be in touch. But I seen the promised land — don’t know if I want to go back to what she has to offer!!! Listening to my heart, and God, I wonder if being around her is good for my own spiritual, not to mention mental, and emotional life. I’m seeking the most compassionate way. If she insists on seeing me as a sinner, shouldn’t I simply respect and honor her beliefs, and take myself out of her world?

Anyway, what I appreciate about this site, the gift it has given me today, is that it places her behavior in CONTEXT. I never had a problem with the people of the church, really, the pastor in his wife believed what they did and it seemed misguided, but they always treated me with respect. But now I can see my own mother’s behavior as an combination of her own particular personality trait (a knower, obeyer and enforcer of rules, who is ruled mainly by fear, and takes comfort and solace in rules…the “cops and accountants of the world” ) and the awful influence of church itself. She got into the wrong crowd. Her powers might have been used for good…

This IS an “angry” site, as one of your detractors has said, but I don’t see a problem with that. One’s anger must be honored and acknowledged, for one’s own health. The people who have been a source of the anger wouldn’t listen compassionately, which further exacerbates the problem, the anger bottled up with no place to go–crazy making! Gratitude is a wonderful antidote, but screaming in pillows or creating sites so that people can speak their truth is helpful too. Acupunture and other alternative health remedies were also really helpful for me.

Gratitude is the way to peace, I think.

My spiritual life is deep and rich. Would it be this wonderful if I hadn’t been raised by a Christi-Nazi? Probably not. No matter what else I have to say about my childhood, there WAS an extreme focus on God. Not a bad place to start.

A few years ago I found a spiritual teacher, a Hindu actually, who even when I wasn’t looking for it, has somehow brought me back to Christ — she preaches no particular religion, but but exemplifies and lives the love of God, to such a great extent that I feel like I KNOW what it must have been like to live in Christ’s time, and actually see him and be around him. (amma.org for those interested)

I experience the type of intimacy with Him that my mother would scoff at and disbelieve if I were to share it with her. But at this point, I know not to cast my pearls before swine…it wastes my time and annoys the pig. I don’t need her approval of my relationship with God. She appointed herself God’s bouncer, but that too, is not my problem. It’ s between her and God.

Such a pure unconditional love that emanates from my teacher, allowing one to see oneself truly through God’s loving eyes, and feel honored to humble oneself before the Lord’s grace…what a difference from the type of humbling that takes place by the jack-booted thugs of the IFBC such as my mom, using the tools of shame and guilt and attack. Again, if i hadn’t had the type of grounding I did early on in this abusive legalism, would I be where I am now? Doubt it.

My teacher herself was treated quite abusively as a child, by her own parents, and had this to say about it.
At the time, she received everything that happened as God himself, as the will of God, and is now grateful for the severity and demanding exactitude, because it helped her to learn discipline, and to hold high standards. She counts her early abusers as her first spiritual teachers.

Everything in this life brings us closer to God, whether we are aware of it at the time or not…
Might as well give thanks from the get-go, and ask to see it as God sees it, see and trust its purpose and meaning.

Another way to find gratitude for my experiences…
I was raised by someone, and brought to a church were they really TALKED the TALK,
and that means I can go a step further, and WALK the TALK.

I once got into an altercation with a Baptist..she’d started asking about what I believed, and I was happy to share and find commonality in the love of God. But it turned out she wasn’t actually curious; I asked her to speak to me respectfully and not to preach, but simply share what SHE believed, and share her joy in that belief. She wouldn’t, or couldn’t. The third time she ignored my request, correcting me and casting me as wrong and a sinner, I had to ask her to leave. As she was leaving, she shouted bible verses and “sinner” at me, red faced. In that moment, I realized I had a choice. I could argue with her about Christ, or I could exemplify Christ, right then in that moment. I ushered her out, looking at her with love and compassion as she fussed, and quietly shut the door, love and peace in my heart. No indignation, no anger, no giving her another thought once she was gone from my sight. A blessing, Christ’s love through me. ..and she the instrument of it.

On your way to God, you can’t stop to argue with every dog that barks.
There’s too much worship to do!

Do you understand even what a cult is? Do you understand the Biblical defintion of legalism? As an IFB preacher who runs a ministry to help free people from both, thre is something to consider. While there may be some IFB congregations that fit this description, the IFB Movement as a whole doesn’t.

(Article removed by Admin due to copyright violations) The answer to your questions is yes to both.

@Brian Bob Jones University is also legalistic. They forbid things that the Bible does not categorically condemn. Also, Pensacola Christian College. They are extremely legalistic. Have you heard of these two places in the IFB?

@Brian
Brian, Just my .02 worth… I have heard of Bob Jones Univ. (Xabusive pastor spent I think a year there..why doesn’t that surprise me????) anyhow, IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) BJU & PCC, are very legalistic.

@Alvin Jiron
Thanks for your letter Alvin. We also stumbled into this. The people seemed so nice and we were looking for a church with more children programs.The pastor said ” WE just preach the bible here” so sounds good, Right?

I’m not going to try to list all the stuff. You and others have nailed it and I am not perfect by any means. My wife is totally caught and will not even hear anything except what Pastor says.She answers all with “NOW I KNOW THE TRUTH, I WAS WRONG BEFORE.” Also she wants to put our kids in their little school. I told her no and told pastor no.They keep asking her to enroll them.

So, our marriage is being torn by this conflict.She told me that her relation to GOD has nothing to do with mine And I will be going Hell.”THANKS DEAR”. Now I just try to say as little as possible to maintain peace ( except for the school thing).I’m a prisoner to IFB

@Oscar
I feel bad for you & others who are prisoners to the manipulation of abusive churches & so-called pastors. Just my opinion, I’m thinking if the kids go to the school that the indoctrination will just continue..**SIGH**. My heart goes out to you. I have seen abusive religion destroy families & marriages. I can say my husband saw the BS years before I did, so please don’t give up on your wife. When my husband was pointing out hypocrisy & questioning the leader I thought he was being influenced by evil, that’s what I was taught. but over time I could see some truth into what he was pointing out & little by little the truth was actually penetrating into my brainwashed soul.

Maybe someday she will see how twisted it all is. It is hard to realize what a sham it is because it looks sooooo good & right at first.

My husband & I were going to leave a first time, then because of the leaders harsh & condemning words, I got scared & sucked back into the “Borg”…my husband was devastated. A few months later we finally left. When you get to the point that you want to run screaming out of a “church service” you know it’s time to leave!

After finally leaving my husband shared his thoughts w/ me about if he had to stay… that he figured he’d just “play the game” and go along for the sake of his family. (living a lie, but doing it to hold on to his family) I couldn’t blame him.

Thank God over time I also began to truly see the abuse & the legalism & eventually walked away from that bible cult w/ my husband. For me it was way harder…guess I was just more of a sucker than my husband.
At the same time we are out of there, better late than never.

I wish you the best & hopeful thoughts to you & yours.

I am writing due to a conflict with my husband and I. My husband is completely brainwashed into believing that if he does not do what the church wants him to do that he cannot serve the LORD. I have realized that this church was not for me. I also had my children in their little school, and I did not like the books that they were learning out of. I sat and read one of the 8th grade U.S. History books that my son was required to read, and I could not believe it. It was all WHITE history, nothing on slaves, nothing on the halecaust, I know I spelled that wrong. Anyway, just the christian founding fathers. I understand the importance of that message, but the wrongs in history need to be taught to our children too, so they will not repeat the evil that has transpired in the past. Anyway, please pray for me. My husband will not listen to me. I think he thinks like some of the others on here, that I am being influenced by evil. I love the lord, and I am saved. I just want him to understand. Thank you for allowing others to post here. May GOD bless you and keep you.

April Trendt-Frazier :
…. I did not like the books that they were learning out of. I sat and read one of the 8th grade U.S. History books that my son was required to read, and I could not believe it. It was all WHITE history, nothing on slaves, nothing on the halecaust, I know I spelled that wrong. Anyway, just the christian founding fathers. I understand the importance of that message, but the wrongs in history need to be taught to our children too, so they will not repeat the evil that has transpired in the past. …. I love the lord, and I am saved. I just want him to understand. Thank you for allowing others to post here. May GOD bless you and keep you.

I believe God does understand.

The cult I escaped had lots of demented teachings, they were more in the background, not mentioned in “sermon/rants”..but the mindset was there, IMHO. here are some examples,

the Indians deserved their fate because they were “savages”, this is utter bullshit! The “white” men wouldn’t have survived had it not been for the compassion the “savages” showed them.

Slavery is “OK”..the bible backs it. Yeah…the bible also backs stoning children who disobey their parents..where does it end?
So many teachings that were just plain CRUEL…but the “bible”…”good book”….”god’s word”..backed it.

@Linda
Dear Linda,
I am so sorry for what you are going through – not being able to see your grandchildren must be very difficult. I can empathize with what you have written. My younger sister’s husband is an IFB Pastor, they too have written us a letter stating we are ‘wicked’ people, that we listen to the devils music and therefore want nothing to do with us. Prior to them writing the letter, it was brought to our attention that they were doing there own investigation on us — their response was that they did this so that they would know who to stay away from. The sad part in all of this too is that my sisters and parents also go to their small church. On occasion when i have seen my sister and her family their behavior is very stoic, there is no joy in them. There is a lot of negativity that comes from them.
I do pray for them – we know that our joy comes from the Lord and that He gives us strength!
btw; there was nothing to investigate and we are a Christian family!
We must continue to pray for them.

I just want to share a little of my experience. Before I go into it I just want to state categorically that I believe basically all the things that make the IFB. So I do believe that the KJB is the most accurate (after much solo investigation on the history of the different versions, the people who were on the translation teams, etc). I also believe that we should be seperate. If we as Christians look like the world, talk like the world, act like the world, dress like the world, we are certainly not seperate and ‘called-out’. I agree with modest dress as the bible commands although I haven’t quite settled the dress-only issue as of it (currently studying it). I do not go to and IFB church currently but I have attended one in the past. The sad part about it all is that while the place had great teaching about false doctrine, taking a stand, etc, the pastor lacked the self-control and humility to effectively shepherd a church. He called our house screaming on several occasions, called my daughter who is on the Autism spectrum names such as rangy and wild (to be fair she wasn’t diagnosed at the time but we were in the midst of pursuing diagnosis and he knew that). He spent much of his time assuring his congregation that the church was the best our city had to offer and preaching on faults/sin as something would occur. Ex. Teenage girl dresses with a skirt a little too short and guess what’s preached on Sunday! It’s like he never planned an actual teaching sermon but rather used whatever the members did wrong to set an example.

The pastors wife would call in sick to work and take off with a friend for dinner in another city without sharing with her husband. Their daughter was drinking often at the same time the pastor was praising her holiness. The whole thing left me shaken and disillusioned. As a young Christian I intended to leave church and never go back. Within a couple months I was convicted and began attending another Baptist church (not IFB). Now we know of another IFB in our city and have met the pastor and his wife (they counseled us a while back) and feel sure they are loving and genuine. At the same time their teaching takes a stand so we are really thinking about giving that church a try. I think bad church situations and controlling leaders do happen in every denomination so we must look for true churches where the leader leads and teaches, in love. We must not sacrifice the truth of issues for the sake of remaining united but when we do point out fallacies we must be sure to do so in love with all reference to the scriptures. Please pray for me as we try out this new church. God Bless

Thanks April,
I’m still hanging on and hoping. We get along pretty good if I just don’t comment. Seems odd that I’m the ” Leader of the Home ” and have to keep my mouth closed. Anyway I’m not a scholar and won’t pretend to be. I can only live by faith. Listening to hate and prideful comments for an hour gives me a headache. With luck maybe I’ll get kicked out for not being active enough.

@oscar

Keep hoping & praying Oscar she may come around some day.

You don’t have to be a scholar to be a good person. God writes his laws into our hearts & we have the Holy Spirit in us to help us. Funny how the religious zealots, as I unfortunately was, forever read & study the bible…I think of the verse “ever learning, yet never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” IMHO little realizing that Jesus’ religion is so simple, you know, love God & your neighbor. Jesus fulfilled the law, yet all kinds of laws get heaped on believers shoulders making folks depressed & crazy. I don’t see simplicity or common sense in the controlling religious legalists camp.

I believe controlling pastors thrust themselves into marriages using their supposed “authority”. I recall when I started to seriously listen to my husband, which of course opened my mind to questions & doubts about the church doctrines, & the pastor’s interpretations of the bible. When we tried to leave the cult church, in a conversation b/ just the pastor & I, he slyly brought up how “…seems like your husband is the problem…” (or words to that effect.) I believe Xpastor’s purpose for that comment was to put a wedge into our relationship w/ the “your husband is doubting & we can’t have that evil influencing you…” scenerio. I can’t remember the exact words, but I believe, the sentiment was to persuade me to trust the PASTOR & NOT my “doubting” husband. It was very manipulative.

All the best to you & yours… I know it’s not easy, but I hope someday you will have a good outcome to it all.

I too know what everyone is speaking about. I am 18 and just left an IFB church as I needed to for university. I knew there were problems, but being rremoved from the situation magnified the problems. My dad is actually an IFB pastor. Being raised as a pastor’s daughter, I saw many things that I disagreed with. I was raised that wearing pants was wrong, Praise & worship music isn’t for real or genuine Christians, the father should always be the head of the home no matter what, ect…

I guess I really started to struggle when I looked at the Bible for myself, and it wwas clearly not saying that women should only wear skirts and the other 101 rules we had to follow to “be safe.” My dad actually got abusive with my sisters. He even strangled my sister for not bringing he Bible to church.

I disagree with my father and his IFB teachings on so many different levels. Being 18 and truly away from everything for the first time, though, I have been left very confused. Everyday it is a struggle feeling like I need to live up to a certain way because I “owe” these people for giving my family the means to live.

If anyone has a familiar situation or advice I would sincerely love to hear.

Mariette

I am amazed to see a common thread in these comments. That common thread is how the pastor is always preaching that the husband is the head of the household, but at the same time, he subtily places a wedge between husbands and wives. He lets the wives know how great he is, and how horrible their husbands are at leadership. He wants you to listen to him, and when you listen to your husband, he gets offended. When I finally started to listen to my OWN husband like the Bible tells us to do, things suddenly changed. They really do not want wives to honor their husbands! If wives honored their husbands, their church congregation would be much smaller, because, after all, most of the “active” members are the women!

IFB was the first church my wife and I attended after our salvation.The pastor there was abusive and paranoid that others were trying to take over leadership.I counseled him several times “that this was not true” but it never seemed to sink in.
We were there eight years and the KJV only doctrine was starting to sweep through our church just before we left.
Well my wife and I had read “the book” a very lose translation of the bible by Pat Robertson first and then we bought other bibles.
So I knew I was saved and I knew it didn’t matter what bible you read, because God is eager to save people.
The eight years I was there I saw many people come and go because of the Pastor.this angered me because we had constant sermons about bringing them in, only to watch them leave offended when we did.
One day during prayer meeting I just asked God to allow me to leave this church and I did and we never looked back.
They sent over the youth leader to try to talk us back in and I guess the Lord spoke through me that day.
I told the youth pastor.
No we won’t be coming back and furthermore you tell the pastor…. that if He doesn’t start doing right and continues to run people away, then He will be run off and will not be allowed back no matter how much He pleads with the church.
Well a few months went by and I got a call from the pastor and He asked me to meet him at the local mall.
When I went down to meet Him I found him in a terrible state and I felt sorry for Him.
Just as I had prophesied, The church had found mild forms of porn in his desk for a second time and they had asked him to resign.
He seemed almost suicidal. I comforted him as much as I could and begged Him to get help and trust that the Lord was not finished with Him and that He was still loved by the Lord.
Well I went back and started to attend again after the new pastor was hired and the old Pastor Literally begged the church to allow Him to just be a member but they would have none of it.
last I heard He was attending a southern baptist church.
We also have been in southern baptist churches since.I have finally seen the other side of God preached. The soft and loving side, the side that does not condemn anything and everything.
I learned a lot In the IFB church because neither my wife nor I were raised Christian.
I have continued my education in Christian apologetics for twenty years and I really loved and still love the pastor and the Church and wish only good things for them. I hope all is well with them but I could never be in that denomination again.

PS. I don’t believe at this time it{the IDFB} can be classified as a cult since the one I attended held to all the tenets of the faith such as the Triune
Godhead and salvation by grace to name just a few.

In my search for what I call recovery I have come accross this site. It’s not that misery loves company but it is comforting to know I am not alone. When you leave a controlling environment like IFB you feel VERY alone because all of your life is wrapped up in church and all your friends are in these churches. When you leave you are cut off. Such a sad testimony to the Lord Jesus Christ.
I will return here for more info and sharing. I have learned much through my experience and would like to share more.
It saddens me to look at the group I was in as a cult. But much of the help I have received is from reading material from authors writing about recovery from cults. There are many similarities even if IFB are not cults they practice many of the same techniques.

Thanks,

All I can say is Wow, I’ve been looking for a site like this for a very long time. It is so affirming to know that others have gone through what my family has with and IFB church, and that we’re not alone.

My dh was raised in IFB church, and I joined one 2 years after being saved when watching the 700 club. All of the things you mentioned went on at that church, but we too were too blind to see it. We raised our son according to their teachings and counseling, and now our son is 17 and wants nothing to do with God. He has seen people that call themselves Christians do the worst things. My dh became disabled and we were treated horribly as he could no longer physically attend service 3 times a week and do all the other things he had been doing for the church.

My son attended the church school at the time, and was picked on mercilessly by the kids there becuase of this. At one point in time, he wsa in a van with a bunch of kids, no adults present, and the children chanted “you don’t belong here.” We got out not long after that. We were so blind and it has hurt our family so badly.

if just one person comes to this site and their eyes are opened to the spiritual abuse they are under and get out, wow, that would be wonderful.

We also lost many friends when we left, our whole life felt empty, and we spent a good couple years waiting for God to punish us. It is still hard to feel “safe” in church and we are very reluctant to trust leadership, but God has been with us all along in amazing ways despite not being in IFB church, something we were taught could never happen.

Hi everyone! Thank God we have all found this site, and that we are not alone! We could each write a book about our IFB experiences.

I would call the IFB cult-like for its tactics, but since the true salvation Gospel is dispensed, it is not a full-blown cult. The spiritual damage inflicted, however, is comparable. Although spiritual abuse occurs in all denominations, I would say the IFB has it more than not. Therefore, I urge all who are there to depart, and all who are considering attending, please go elsewhere. If your child is in an IFB school, that is most unfortunate, and I urge you to explore another alternative. Ease him out of there and into a new setting, due to culture shock and inferior education. The way I feel at this point, public school would have done my child less harm than his IFB school. At 9 years old, he was well-grounded and walking with the Lord BEFORE his undeserved sentence in the IFB. At 16, he attends his new church and school activities more for the social contact. He is socially awkward, lacking valuable education, and he remains estranged from the Lord. Traditional hymns and contemporary Christian music alike leave him cold. Even I can barely stand to hear old favorites like “Victory in Jesus,” et al. The memories have destroyed my former pleasure in them. Whenever I hear “Pastor’s” personal favorites, I get angry, depressed, anxious, and nauseous.

My son and I got trapped in an IFB church for 6 years. The first 2 years seemed OK until I transferred him from his larger, excellent Christian school, to the tiny, one-room church school when he began 5th grade. When he completed 8th grade, we FLED. In those 4 years at that church and school, my son and I both lost many family members and friends due to our need to be separate. My son brought his best friend from his former school to church one Sunday, to the disdain of the congregation and the other kids, because his clothes and mop-top hair were unacceptable. We discontinued doing fun activities because they were of the world. We even physically destroyed expensive (and harmless) CDs, videos, game systems and games, because they were of the world and getting in the way of the things of the Lord. We had ourselves and our home prayed over and prayed through, like an exorcism, to remove the remnants of any evil spirits that still may have been lurking, even though we already destroyed everything we could think of.

We stopped going even on short trips, because we had to be in church “whenever the church doors were open.” (Never mind that while on the road once, we took the time to stop in at a non-IFB Baptist church to attend the Sunday evening service. We were at the wrong church, not OUR church).

My son wore a white shirt, black tie, pants, and shoes to school every day, while I wore long skirts, even on the coldest, snowiest days. They all laughed when I slipped on the ice and all was exposed when the skirt flew up around me. I never did give my son a crewcut, as I was frequently requested to do. I just kept it off of his ears and his collar. We were taught that shorts and swimming in the summer (or any time) were not to be. To this day, swimming no longer interests him, although he delighted in it before we fell into their snare. Even t-shirts were frowned upon in favor of collared shirts. No man better be caught wearing any kind of pastel colored shirt either. Ladies’ blouses better not be any lower than 4 finger widths from the neckline, or else!

“Revivals” were frequent, held at our church and at other IFB churches miles away. All of them were attended, even if they were held during school hours. My son was actually ill after having traveled to one and being forced to endure 5 hours of “screaching.” I’ve walked the aisle for salvation more than once, just to be sure, since I still never felt “right with God.”

Physical education at the school consisted of lame exercises, kick ball, pushups, or marching. There was no gym, so frequent sprained ankles on uneven ground outside has resulted in my son’s painful, early arthritis today.

I don’t want to calculate all the money this UNEMPLOYED, DISABLED, WIDOW donated to the needs of the church, the pastor’s family, and to a scheming, lying, hypocritical family, the head of which was the “Assistant Pastor.” As time went on, we got to see the rampant, grievous sin and hypocrasy of various members and those in the pastor’s own family. Even a revered, visiting evangelist screacher, blew it and showed his true colors.

After the Assistant Pastor’s family got done squandering and milking whatever they could, they latched on to an out of state pastor’s family and church to begin the process there anew. They even managed to weedle a whole new house from Habitat for Humanity.

Enter a new “Assistant Pastor,” a young upstart punk from a local IFB college, itching to get his power trip going. He easily got things his way from the aging pastor, who was at least “kind” in his abuse. This young guy pulled out all the stops with his abuse, using the personal matters within the congregation as sermon material, dismissing those who weren’t fully under his thumb from teaching Sunday school classes, and telling this widow, after having donated THOUSANDS of dollars, that I “really need to tithe.” He also announced at the school banquet, that “those who are not with Pastor, are against him,” referring to those of us that were not enrolling our kids in their “high school.” That school, after my son had a legitimate argument with “Pastor,” even threated to delay his 8th grade graduation!

Well, I’ve become all worked up again, and I could go on and on with more horror stories, but I better quit here (for now). Maybe I’ll come up with a bedtime story or two in the future.

I am just very grateful for this site on which we can all vent and help each other through our collective IFB nightmare! Thank you for your attention.

There is another church like this in Albany, Georgia. The pastor is arrogent. Look at this site: http://www.brothermike.com

Hey Brian, I’m not an IFB however I’m going to PCC (pensacola christian college) Not really because I want to, but it’s where God has called me to. Even though a majority of IFB leaders are judgmental and ignorant, we cannot turn out to be just like them by judging them back. God bless.

@Matt If you’re not an IFB, then you should not go to an IFB college. Arlin Horton, along with the administration will control every aspect of your life. IMO, they are the most legalist IFB college in the United States, after Hyles-Anderson. Going home for thankgiving is even prohibited. They will not cut you any slack. You need to read the Student Voice. http://www.pensacolachristiancollege.com

Brian :
@Matt ….the administration will control every aspect of your life. IMO, they are the most legalist IFB college in the United States, after Hyles-Anderson. Going home for thankgiving is even prohibited http://www.pensacolachristiancollege.com

That place sounds scary!

Seems to be a very controlling, authoritarian mindset…I guess God is a dicator?? & they want to emulate what they believe God is (dictating over others?)??? and not going home for Thanksgiving…wow, these folks evidently want more control over a person than their own loving family. God gave us our families!! Seems like some people want others to devote all loyalty to THEM & their organization/dogma/theology.

So reminds me of the abuse….

God, please get people out of places like that!

I grew up in a liberal church that judged everyone that had a lower standard than ours even though I was allowed to teach AWANAS after drinking beer and being immoral on the weekends. My wife and I finally found an IFBC and I led my first soul to the Lord ( what a thrill that I have had the pleasure of partaking in as long as I do not quench the Holy Spirit by living in a sinful , bitter condition)No church or pastor is perfect and I am sorry that the majority of the letter writers are so judgmental toward folks that were probably doing there best to love you and try to shepherd you in a right direction.I know the world says to do your own thing , but put yourselves in the shoes of a pastor who truely loves you and would give his life to see you turn out for good and for God. There must be Biblical standards or we would not know right from wrong. I know that many have left our church with the same criticisms that I read in your letters BUT WHERE IS THE LOVE AND PRAYERS FOR THE PASTORS AND THEIR FAMILIES THAT ARE JUST TRYING TO DO RIGHT ??? a Pastor

@April Did you go to the link of the web site I posted?

maybe yes to some but not all ifb’s are like this. the church i have been attending is an ifb and typically the governing pattern is synonymous with many published experiences. im losing direction but im studying and praying for light that we may find a scriptural assembly. I hope reforms shall be made for the greatest glory for the LORD.

Not every IFB church is as described on this website…I’ve never been taught by anyone including the pastor of my church that you are only saved if you read a certain version of the Bible. I don’t know a SINGLE IFB church that says that. Yes, we use KJV but when talking about salvation it has nothing to do with the version we read! : ) It is about realizing you are a sinner and believing and accepting what Jesus did!The only time I could see that making sense is if someone is reading a version that says anything other than accepting Christ to be saved. Anyway there are a lot of things you say on here that are right on. Like with separation-we are called to be separate in the Bible so I don’t understand this argument. I don’t believe that I will go to hell if I wear jeans. If Christians continue to do things that un saved people do, is that not just confusing them? I heard a sermon recently that said if we continue to look and act like the world, someone who isn’t saved is going to look at us and go-what is so good about them? Why do I need Jesus? I am exactly like they are…I know that how I LOOK and ACT isn’t going to save someone! I realize that 100%. But they way we are could sure mislead someone. I really truly believe that. I think in any denomination there are extremists and those who are more liberal. I mean in the southern Baptist church I used to go to the kids that made up the youth group were out drinking and having sex on Saturday night and then right there in church being an influence to others(most scary, YOUNG kids ) anyway I know there are definitely those who take extremes in the IFB church. I can say that the one I go to isn’t at all like it is described on here. If you read the Bible and believe in Jesus and have him as your saviour, you realize the Bible IS what we should live by! It lays out plainly how we should live…as far as schools being legalistic and stuff. I do agree they are very very strict, most of the time way more strict that families are that are in the IFB church. I see a good reason for this though. In places that are training men and women to do work either as pastors, teachers in Christian schools or churches or whatever. It’s important I think to not have any distractions that could lead a girl or young man off course from what they are there to do. Anyway these are just a few of the things I think! I could keep writing forever but I have already written a lot : )

@Sarah Don’t take sides with this legalistic IFB movement on this anti-IFB web site!!

Comment removed by Site Moderator. Comments are welcome. Personal attacks are not!

Click here to read Gerry’s comment.

Comment removed by Site Moderator. Comments are welcome. Personal attacks are not!

Click here to read what James had to say.

It seems sad to me that you have had such a horrible experience. It also seems to me that you have singled out the only ‘denomination’ that is not teaching with a ‘contemporary’ twist. Spend some time in the other denominations and I asure you, you will have to expand your web site to include their faults, too. Your accusations against the IFB would not even have a listening ear if the world had not been taught a ‘feel good’ doctrine in the more liberal churches of our day. I have read your grievances and understand that there is always a little truth in every deception. Sir, your deception has enough ‘truth’ in it to convince people that may not know any better, but as for me and my house…we will serve the LORD. (in the the old fashioned IFB way)

@Brian
Hi Brian, I clicked the link, saw briefly some stuff, then my virus detector said “Warning…” so I exited the website.

I don’t believe I need to check out that site to know about PCC…I have heard about that place as well as Bob Jones University & all I can say is it seems authoritarian & controlling. Just my opinion.

Well, I’ve gotten burned too, but I’m not bitter…sounds like you want people to join your pitty party.

Just keep walking with God and obey him and he’ll pull you out.

I got kicked out of my church…5 years of blood, sweat and tears and all because some guy was doing all these things he should not be doing and I thought he was a Jesuit infiltrator…still think he is…and prayed 3 months and went to my pastor -in confidence- and told him and he flipped out (he’s a neophite)…I stayed 2 extra years and all these people came out of the woodwork to accuse me of God knows what till I got kicked out…If that were not bad enough, they just completely excommunicated me and this Guy I call Mr. Stumblingblock made sure I was not welcome at the bible college where I was going to get my masters and then he called every church in my town to tell them God knows what about me…that I’m a troublemaker…because I brought up issues in private to my pastor…never told anyone outside of leadership anything.

Oh well…I may have to relocate out of my city if I want to go to an independent baptist church, but you know what?…God never abandoned me and I still walk, witness, study my bible, pray, obey, etc…I’m still born again and my hope is still alive.

But, I will say this…they ought to have a ‘Diplomacy 101′ and make it mandatory for all ifb leaders…they just took me out back and executed me…then they put on the really long philacteries in their ‘leadership’ conferences and wax eloquent about the ‘inner workings’ of being a baptist leader…they should listen and learn from their own preaching

best advice…pray for them and be like Job that prayed for his friends and God released his captivity…be like Joseph…their brothers meant their betrayal for evil, but God meant it for good.

My hope is still alive

I’ve been out of church for 2 years but read my bible every

well done for being brave enough to stand up for what you beleive is right. I count myself as a beleiver in christ.I am an ex-baptist member of an independent baptist church and resigned due to in my opinion the misuse of their idea of how to live biblical lives. They encourage you to read the bible, which i did, the more i read it, the more i equated their rule obsessed thinking and joyless behaviour with the pharisees. the most important words as quoted by Jesus himself was love the lord your god with all your heat and love thy neighbour. That as i understand, means a love and compassion for all people not just members of the baptist church. They seemed more obsessed with petty rules, and placed more emphasis on some issues than others, that suited their own agenda rather than extending true christian love. I particularly think of how Jesus was “told off” and quoted from scriptures about healing a man on the day of the sabbath, as that was the day of rest according to scriptures. He had to remind them of the higher reason for the laws. Many independent baptist churches seemed to display disturbing animosity towards homeosexuals, because biblically the practice is decreed as wrong, but they forget to still love the homosexual and to treat him with compassion, understanding and kindness.This is only one example of many. Just the general attitude of condemnation and sin orientated thinking, lack of joy. The whole purpose of Jesus dying on the cross, was that we may repent and turn to him and be so filled with his spirit that we no longer want to sin. This is good news and therefore dwelling on sin, just brings people down. We try to sin no more because we joyously love Jesus and want to spread that joy he brings us. Not spread misery,doom.gloom and pious condemnation.Jesus clearly chose to be with the obvious sinners and untouchables, like tax collectors,prosititutes and adulterers, who showed humility and repentence, he led them away from their ways,because they loved him. He was far more critical of the self-richeous.I have had many humbling,personal experiences of christ’s love and as a result it has given me compassion and understanding and a desire to pass this wonderful grace on.This love he filled my heart with is not because i am particularly good, but because he gave his love and i am humbly grateful for this.I knocked and he answered.I do not hate the members of indep. baptist churches, but i pray for them, because their attitude puts a lot of christians off track and discourages and depresses them and also discourages non-believers from seeing the light. Pray a lot and be guided by the spirit. God bless and may Jesus and all he stood for,be stood up for bravely as you have done. God bless

It is nice to know that I am not crazy after all. I felt like no one could possibly understand what was feeling. I still have ALOT of fear, anger, anxiety, guilt, confusion about everything that I experienced in a IFB church. I am thankful God allowed this in my life so that in the future He will be able to use me to help others. As for now, I have ALOT of healing to do. I am currently in a Evangelical Free church where I feel safe spiritually. I am still extremely gaurded though. Thank you so much for shedding light on this subject. God is the only true source of strength and hope because right now I really do not trust people at all!!!!!!!

I went to an IFB in Jackson, MS for 15 years of my childhood. From the time I was 4 years old until I was old enough to not go (18). I definitely suffered spiritual abuse and have been dealing with this spiritual hole in my life for the last two years specifically. Most recently, I have come to realize that I never fully comprehended God’s amazing grace and unconditional love for us as sinners. We are all sinners and must die daily to live like Christ. A christ centered church is not a place for saints but a hospital for sinners.

See as a child then teenager in this church, I was worthless to the preacher. There were deacons until they disagreed with the Pastor and he did away with them. I too have seen many people led to the Lord (Soul Winning) and then driven away by condemnation and judgement on them. We were taught that women did not wear pants, boys cut their hair, you sit 12 inches apart, and movies,tv, radio, dancing where all bad.

I blame this church for my misunderstanding of Christ’s love, but Thank God, I have recently been born again. I can use this painful experience to learn from. Unfortunately, my mother still attends this church. She will never leave because she is in her 70s and this is all she knows. She too can be judgemental and condemning. I still get the speech, “If you would have listed to Bro. XXXX you wouldnt be in the mess you are in”.

Thank goodness God saved me from this believe and now I know and experience his love and can hopefully learn to be forgiving and show love to those who have hurt me. Like Jesus, we must love our enemies. We must pray that he will show us how to love them and change their hearts.” Romans 12: 9-21.

I too have been angry and this verse has helped me: Ephesians 4:26, “Be angry, and yet do not sine. Do not let the sun go down on your anger. and do not give the devil an opportunity.

What I notice as a member of a fundamental baptist congregation is being bombarded with sermons about soul winning, giving, and honoring and being loyal to your pastor. However, not much preaching about the person and works of Christ, the Holy Spirit, regeneration,justification, repentance, and election. Seems to me the system is not Christ centred, and more like a fellowship centered on a person in the pulpit.

While I admit that soul winning or witnessing is a must for a christian in obedience to the Lord, I still believe it’s the Spirit work to communicate life to one who hears the gospel. Those who experienced regeneration, and knew what true repentance and faith is hopefully can relate to what I mean.

I wonder if children raised in such strict environments will eventually abandson any faith once they are on their own. When a child is told everything remotely fun (movies, TV, sports, many games) is sinful, they will see Christianity as boring and God as one quick to punish. I can agree that playing poker for money is wrong, but not a simple game of “Go Fish” or “Crazy Eights”. Many R rated movies are not appropriate, but why can’t people see movies like “UP” or “Night at the Museum”?

Freind there are greater enemies out there than a few who build self above Christ, don’t let this haterate eat you up , as long as people are in this body we shall be afflicted, be careful in attacking His Body even if it doesnt please you. Jerry

Folks, if you think IFB churchs are strict and legalistic, just wait until you find out how strict & legalistic God is! He put alot of very strict do’s & do not’s in His Word. The Bible says to pray for those that despitfully use you. Are you praying for them? You speak of Pharisees. Perhaps you should turn to the Bible and see what Gamaliel had to say. I read the previous posts and the predominate theme is bitterness. One posts even starts out that they aren’t bitter and with in a few sentences, bitterness was rearing it’s ugly head. Jesus says that there are 2 great commandments: Love God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind; and love your neighbor as yourself. Only God knows if you follow the first one, but your posts seem to indicate that you don’t follow the second. Whether the IFB churchs are wrong or not, the matter should be dealt with in prayer with God, not on an internet website. God has the power to change things if it’s His will, while this website has no power to do that. The level of your walk with Christ is now available, for all who visit this site, to see. Please pray before posting, and choose your words carefully. Don’t be the stumbling block that God speaks of in His word. I would like to thank the website host for letting me post, and I’ll be praying for all of you. Casey

Casey :
Folks, if you think IFB churchs are strict and legalistic, just wait until you find out how strict & legalistic God is! He put alot of very strict do’s & do not’s in His Word. The Bible says to pray for those that despitfully use you. Are you praying for them? You speak of Pharisees. Perhaps you should turn to the Bible and see what Gamaliel had to say. I read the previous posts and the predominate theme is bitterness. One posts even starts out that they aren’t bitter and with in a few sentences, bitterness was rearing it’s ugly head. Jesus says that there are 2 great commandments: Love God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind; and love your neighbor as yourself. Only God knows if you follow the first one, but your posts seem to indicate that you don’t follow the second. Whether the IFB churchs are wrong or not, the matter should be dealt with in prayer with God, not on an internet website. God has the power to change things if it’s His will, while this website has no power to do that. The level of your walk with Christ is now available, for all who visit this site, to see. Please pray before posting, and choose your words carefully. Don’t be the stumbling block that God speaks of in His word. I would like to thank the website host for letting me post, and I’ll be praying for all of you. Casey

Wow…so if I speak my truth I’m not following the 2nd of the two great commandments according to you?

So….who made you judge, jury & executioner?

My God isn’t some zeus in the sky waiting to hurl lightening bolts at people for supposed infringments of what you call “strict & legalistic” rules. But since you’re talking about these strict & legalistic rules why don’t you stone the children to death who disobey & go buy a few slaves while you are at it? Living by the good book, right?

Aren’t folks saved by GRACE according to the bible?
Ya ever read Micah 6:8 “what doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly, love mercy & walk humbly w/ thy God” ???

Why shouldn’t abusers, who use God’s name to hurt & abuse others, be exposed via the internet? Should people have just sat around & “prayed & let God deal w/ it?” while Hitler or Stalin were murdering? …don’t you know that for evil to prevail, all it takes if for good people to do NOTHING. Maybe God’s will is for us to bring to light & discuss these issues… bring them out into the open.

The truth shouldn’t be afraid of being shown, but those who are abusive & hypocritical sure don’t appreciate the spotlight of scrutiny!

I do not see speaking the truth of ones experiences as being any “stumbling block”. By your statements you seem to think people are some “stumbling block” for voicing their experiences with abusive religion.

Must be nice to be the judge.

Maybe once you’ve walked a mile in those shoes you would not be so quick to judge those of us who have been through a fire you could not possibly imagine.

BTW, I am pissed about what happened to me in God’s name, call it “bitterness” or whatever. I’m a feeling human being that God made, I have emotions & if I feel bitter & hurt by what I experienced then it just goes to show that I am HUMAN.

@Linda
I must say that you need to read your bible more! your children are only following what God tells them to do in Dueteronomy 22:5 that says that its an abomination for a woman to wear a man's clothing I guess that following God's plan is overboard in you opinion then. The bible also states that if we spare the rod we spoil the child. This means that we ought to spank our children when they sin. This actually shows them that we do love them. Also, stop interfering with the decisions they make!! The Bible says train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it. They have the Bible to back them up in these situations. Also to those that say that keeping your children from sinful or questionable activities will bore them and cause them to stray from God , do you realize that the bible says be ye angry and sin not. This means that we should depart from all appearances of evil. I think that there are a lot of people on this site that want to live like worldly christians. If you live the way that the world does they see no difference in you. What have you even been saved from? If you are no different then there is nothing that the lost world would see that they need.

Casey, The churches that are mentioned on this site are churches that are based on traditions of men NOT on the true Word of God. Therefore, they have done great damage to the cause of Christ and in individuals lives…mine included.

False teachers are to be exposed for who they are. Those legalistic rules are put in place so others will be conformed into the image of man NOT God. Like the pharisees of the NT todays pharisees reject who Christ of the Bible is and set out to make others conform to their image not Gods. If you would but read your Bible you would see how Christ interacted with the pharisees and openly rebuked them. He called them a brood of vipers at one time. That is pretty strong language. He wasn’t out to be mean, but expose them for who they really are, enemies of God. He did that so others would not fall prey to their traditions.

Time and time again as you read the testimony of those of us who have been freed from the bondage of legalism we share that we have a true hunger for the Truth of God’s Word, not mans. We seek after Him and His righteousness. We long to grow in grace and knowledge of Him and Him alone. We are sick and tired of trying to follow the dead traditions of men. We understand who these folks are and how they operate. We understand that our character will be and has been maligned due to the fact we reject their traditions. We understand we will and have lost relationships. We understand the we are and will continue to be labeled as heretics due to the fact we have left “the faith”.

We have paid a heavy price for our freedom in Christ. I can’t speak for everyone, but I have lost friends, family, and have had my character maligned countless times. I get angry emails and comments made towards my family and I by those who are still trapped in the bonds of legalism and wish to place us under the same bonds. I hold no hatred or anger towards them but I do mourn for them. You and others like you have no understanding of what a true life in Christ is therefore you have no understanding of the new found freedom we have in Christ. That is incredibly tragic. I would like to encourage you and others to read Matt. 23. You will get a clear picture of the churches I use to attend.

Matt. 5:20…”For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

@Lor

@Casey

This month I will celebrate two years since I exited IFBC’s. This was after attending for over thrity years, going to their schools and holding position(s) of leadership. About three years ago I ran smack dab into religion (man’s attemps to earn God’s approval) in the church I was attending and discovered it had well saturated my own life. I began to question much of what is being discusse on this site. It’s a long and exciting story as God began to unravel my belief system to rebuild the relationship He had always desired with me. One day I happened to come across a book on the web. A free .pdf download entitled “So You Don’t Want To Go To Church Anymore?” (currently in Walmart stores) http://www.jakecolsen.com/
It put into words what my heart had been feeling for a long time. Through it I became gratefully disallusioned with the Institutional Church. My realationship with Jesus has skyrocked in the past two years. Father has and continues to connect us with people who are hungry for Him. I’m enjoying the journey with Him as He places people in front of our lives to love as He loves us. I don’t attend the weekly show anymore, where I set and watch what’s going on up front. Not intrested in another sermon but love the continued conversations that I find myself in. Living loved – because we have a Father who loves us more than anyone on the planet ever has or ever will.

Paul

This post was removed to the “Emails Received” page. You will find Steve’s reply there as well.

@joe schmoe
Dear Joe Schmoe, I am sorry that you have had to experience this terrible ordeal. No doubt, what was done to you was absolutely wrong! I am a IFB preacher, and I can say truthfully that it shames me that these men are called IFB preachers.

I have a friend in Indianapolis, IN who pretty much experienced the same thing you did. I mean it. The exact same thing. But also like you, he has learned not to be bitter, to understand that the Word of God is our absolute priority, and he is having to move on. I will pray that the Lord will continue to heal and guide you in the time to come.

God Bless

JR

@JLR

A man of learning will not only know his argument, but also the arguments of those who oppose him.

Having attended, been schooled (HAC, 7 yrs. 2 degrees), and served in IFBC’s for over 32 years, I am well versed in the teachings, dogma, and doctrines of Fundamentalism. While it is true and in this I would agree with you, that not all those in IFB circles are the same. Some are better, others worse. I have watched Fundamentalism over the years become something far different from what it once was. What I have observed over the years is that the aroma or savor of IFB’s is very close in smell and taste. Of course, this takes on slightly different hews depending on which school or ministry you’ve attended. I have been one who has held, taught, preached, defended, and espoused the view of IFBs over the course of time mentioned above.
I believe your summation about people being hurt and/or bitter is only partial. While there are those who have been hurt, I believe this is the minority of those who have become disillusioned and are speaking out today. It is taboo to question or disagree with pastors in the IFB churches.
Please consider the statements below from http://www.lifestream.org/bodylife.php?blid=53

“Religion survives by telling us we need to fall in line or some horrible fate will befall us.”
“Institutionalism breeds task-based friendships. As long as you’re on the same task together, you can be friends. When you’re not, people have to treat you like damaged goods.”

“The problem with church as you know it, is that it has become nothing more than mutual accommodation of self-need. Some need to lead. Some need to be led. Some want to teach, others are happy to be the audience. Rather than become an authentic demonstration of God’s life and love in the world, it ends up being a group of people who have to protect their turf. What you’re seeing is less of God’s life than people’s insecurities that cling to those things they think will best serve their needs…

“That’s the problem with institutions isn’t it? The institution provides something more important than simply loving each other in the same way we’ve been loved. Once you build an institution together you have to protect it and its assets to be good stewards. It confuses everything. Even love gets redefined as that which protects the institution and unloving as that which does not. It will turn some of the nicest people in the world into raging maniacs and they never stop to think that all the name-calling and accusations are the opposite of love.”

I believe your below statement encapsulates the thinking of most if not all IFBs. And therein lays the foundation of your error. All else is built thereon. Please realize, I do not believe you will see what I am saying. I believe you will disagree. That’s OK. I understand because this was once me.

You have stated: “I believe God’s Word, the Bible, and all that it says and teaches. Friends, our first loyalty must and always be to the Word of God, not to a church, a preacher, a denomination, or tradition.”

Please don’t back peddle as soon as you read the following, you have made your statement. Jesus is my first and only loyalty. I too believe the Bible and its teachings. But, you have given the Bible preeminence. This is the place only Jesus should hold. IFB’s with its KJVonly views have made the Bible the forth member of the Godhead. The KJV of the Bible has become the standard by which every thing else is judged. I know the arguments, the books, and the web sites that support the above. Please consider my opening statement and consider the links listed below. I was like a fish in a fish tank. My whole world was there. Then one day God threw me into the ocean.

http://www.awildernessvoice.com/GEC.html
http://www.awildernessvoice.com/WordMadeFlesh.html
http://www.kjvonly.org/
http://www.kjv-only.com/
http://www.lifestream.org
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id11.html

I choose not to comment on other statements in your post although I see other areas that I believe need discussing.

We have a Father that loves us like no one ever has or ever will on this planet.
Paul

@Paul

Paul, Thank you for the book link. I finished reading it last night. We too have been set free from the incorrect modern mindset of “church”. I would agree with most of what the book says. However, we have been blessed with a very rare…not perfect…church family. The preaching & teaching is right on with scripture. Unlike most churches though, there is no pressure to serve, attend or any other “standards” enforced.
This church has been a true blessing to us as it let us rest in the Lord as we were led by the Holy Spirit and learned what it is to walk with Christ, not in traditions of men. For the past 4 yrs. we have been able to grow tremendously in the Lord with other believers living along side us. For the first time in our lives, church wasn’t the focus; God is!

Such a precious gift from God.

When we were in IFB church we truly thought we were serving God and living for Him. As many of us now know, we were deceived. In reality, we have replaced a relationship with God with church and all it’s requirements. Folks ask us often when we share what God has done in our lives why we even attended such a church. I tell them it is all we knew and that fear was a strong factor as well.

Folks still in it, as you said, just don’t see the deception as of yet. I pray for those still caught in the web of deception. I pray the blinders will fall off and that they will see the majority of IFB churches really are.

I once was lost,
but now I am found!
Was blind
but now I am free!!!

Hi! I have been a member of an IFB church since 1992. Before that, I was raised partially Southern Baptist, and partially according to the traditional ways of my Cherokee grandparents. I am born-again and follow the Lord 100 percent. I am 43 years old, and yes, I wear long skirts and dresses and have very long hair. I wear make-up, watch TV, currently attend a secular college, and enjoy some contemporary Christian music, although my church does not approve of it, does not allow it in church, or it’s college affilliates(Bob Jones University and Ambassador Baptist College). i AM PLANNING TO TRANSFER TO one of these colleges soon.

I know of a couple of IFB churches and their church-supported organizations that are, indeed, spiritually abusive, and to some extent, physically abusive with children(ie, spanking allowed by Sunday School teachers). Some of the parents take corporal punishment too far in the name of Jesus. NO, no, this is WRONG. MY church is not one of these churches. The colleges my church supports does not promote such things. There ARE rules for both men and women attending these colleges, such as dress code…women wear longish skirts and dresses, and men wear suits. However, women are allowed to wear skorts casually when school is not going on, and men are allowed to wear jeans. Casual dress is allowed ”off the academic clock” but it must be godly and modest. The college students at our church are expected to maintain the same dress codes and conduct mannerisms as they do at school. However, women like me who do not go to these colleges are in no way treated as outcasts if we wear slacks. The idea is MODESTY. One need not look like Ma Ingles and her girls to be modest. The idea is modesty and taste in OUR time and culture. We aren’t Old or New Testament Jews and Gentiles living in desert areas in the Middle East, and God does not expect us to be. I WEAR DRESSES BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO, NOT BECAUSE MY CHURCH MAKES ME FEEL SINFUL IF I DON’T! I sympathize with anyone who has suffered spiritual abuse. I HAVE, but not because of a church. i SUFFERED spiritual abuse from my own husband. But please do not lump all IFB churches like apples into one barrell. One bad apple does NOT spoil the whole bunch. Also keep in mind that it isn’t IFB churches taking advantage of people, brainwashing, etc. There is a ”cult” called Church of God Restoration. I invite you to go to their web site. Just key in CHURCH OF GOD RESTORATION on [an Internet search engine] and click the link when it comes up. Look especially at the photo galleries. And check out other links exposing this ”church”. Study their beliefs. I have NEVER heard of ANY IFB church say that if one does not belong to an IFB church, that person will go to hell, or that one cannot be saved outside of a IFB church. I may be wrong on this but I’ve checked out boocoos of IFB web sites and been to several IFB churches and have never heard this said. Also, [search online for] the WORD OF FAITH CHURCH, SPINDALE, NC. This is a real cult, just minutes up the road from me. Read about all the national publicity on this church and thier practices.

aT MY CHURCH, i AM FED SPIRITUALLY. I am always challeneged in spiritual discipline.

@Pastor Martin Siegwart
It should start with you exemplifying the love of Christ as the leader. You can’t do that when you are picking motes out of a brother’s eye.

@kizzy
You have made a whole list of incoherent judgments in your post. None of them are backed with Scripture, and none of them have any logical relationship from one argument to the next. I don’t see what point you are trying to make except that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

First, I don’t think this website is an anti-IFB pity party. These are people with real hurt and real needs. Second, I don’t agree that labelling and condemning all of the IFB churches as an organization is right. Many are excellent churches with folks that love and serve the Lord genuinely and sincerely. You will find similar abuse and control issues in any denomination. Third, as one who has been victimized in three abusive church ministries, I can add my testimony to the fact that the abuse is real and the spiritual damage is real, though I am not sure that all the people in any particular abusive church are intentional participants in the abuse. The intention is most clearly seen in those at the top as they respond to perceived threats to their power and control. In this, the abusive intimidation and controlling behaviors are most clearly intentional and calculated. Unfortunately, the term “leadership” has come to classify many abusive actions as requirements of good leadership. While the abuse is very real, it can also be very subtle. What all of my experience has underscored to me is that we have and can trust no one but God. And there is nothing for us to hold on to except His Word. What more do we need? Fellowship with others is critical, but God can and will provide for that. I think this website could be the first step for healing for many people–we have to start somehwere.

Here are some comments on You Tube from IFB church members:

to ilovestorms, i understand where your coming from to a point, i grew up in a very “Conservative” Baptist family, and i dont think card-playing and movie-going are evil anymore, i grew out of that, but what i havent grown out of is my understanding of the truth that the King James Bible is the perfect, preserved Word of God and I still consider myself an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, we answer to God and His Word

ILovestorms is my you tube user name.

I think it is a shame and disgrace for you allto talk about your churches like this. Remember what the word of God says. It would be better for a person to have never known the truth than to have known it and turn their back on it. so turn unto your own vomit, but remember Christ still loves you.

I am so happy I found this site! I just finally left the IBC that I have been a part of for 7 years and I am feeling God’s tru grace for the first time in YEARS!!! Praise Jesus I am FREE!!

this site is very helpful I think I seen it all in the Independent fundamental Baptist churches.There are a few that are doing a great job and are loving but the movement is ready to die. Rules and non bible standards have killed it. 90% of pastors kids do not make it because they can not live up to the standards by the way us adults have the same problem. I have many friends in these churches and pastor friends you would not believe what they really feel about the church.Many do not study and the ones who do begin to ask questions thats when you get in trouble. the truth is they do not want you to think for yourself.pray for the many who want out but are scared of there peers.

It’s not wrong to question the truth of something! It is wrong to question whether or not God is true, or whether or not the Bible is true. However, if something seems manipulative, or if what they are teaching is confusing, it is Okay to study the scriptures and see if what they are teaching is right. That is Biblical to do. It is wrong to use the Word of God to make people AFRAID to question what they are taught. Doctrines like clothing, music, dating, spanking- those are all okay to study out for yourself. There is nothing CLEAR cut in the Bible about them. It is wrong for people to make you feel guilty about not agreeing with how they want to apply standards.

Why does everyone freely accept other versions of the bible. When reading from the bible and everyone has different versions, doesn’t that cause confusion? Who is the author of confusion? All of the negative comments are a result of ignorance.

I was trained up in the IFB church from the age of fifteen all the way to a small IFB College to be one of their preachers. When I didn’t agree with the legailistic doctrine, they tried their best to ruin a young man’s life without an ounce of consideration for my feelings or what haveck it may have caused me down the road. Thank God I have responded to the criticism by going to college again to be a State Trooper and have done incredibly well. Yet, I have dedicated the rest of my life to warn people about the legalisic, dangerous, and abusive church which claims to be God’s Church. If there is anything I can do, you let me know. I promise to help as long as God gives me breath

In response to Brian- Is it wrong for me to not talk the same way they talked in the 1600′s? Because if I spoke that way today, most people would not understand me. There are different ways to say the same thing- that is not wrong. I have read the King James Version exclusively since I was 20 years old. I am 37 now. Today, it is still hard for me to understand at times. It took a long time for me to not feel guilty about reading a different transcription, but I’m glad I do now! Most people do not want to change the meaning of scripture- they are only updating the language so that it can be understood. I’m sure there are some bad transcriptions out there, but let’s please not accuse good, godly men who love His word of being people who are out to get us and rewrite God’s word all for money and power. That is slanderous.

I have shared this link with many people since my last comment on this page from April 21,2009. We are no longer with that church. It has been a nightmare to get out and it’s no wonder people move away when they need to break free.

Divorce hurts but it doesn’t make marriage obsolete or wrong, Church or pastoral abuse is wrong and hurts but doesn’t incriminate most IFB churches. I can’t argue with these personal stories b/c I don’t know you or the churches that you dislike but most of the people that post speak of a better life now and a more spiritual walk while they bash those that wronged them. I would encourage each of you over time to consider Jesus’ example of forgiveness and perhaps your story of forgiveness will have a much bigger impact then even this website of sharing how you were wronged.

Reading these makes me thankful that I have not had the same experiences as some of you had and I hope each of you find a Bible believing church that you can serve in and grow.

There is something I do agree with the IFB about, but it’s the ONLY thing and that is that they do not adhere to the doctrine of calvinism, also call Reformed Theology. The theology is defined by 5 points on the infamous acrynim T.U.L.I.P. They teach that man has no free will and that because God is sovereign, He chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. The people He chose for heaven are called “the elect” and that Jesus Christ only died on the cross for them, which is why the L in the TULIP stands for “Limited Atonement”. They are irresistably drawn by the Spirit by “Iresistable Grace”. IBF rejects that God sends people to hell, who never stood a chance of being saved, becuase they are not part of “the elect”. I agree with them about not adhering to those teachings, but that’s the one and ONLY thing that I agree with them about.

@Jacob F
It is sad…yes, they do try to ruin people’s lives who get the courage to point out what’s wrong & leave. They want to be able to judge & exclaim, “see there…God judged him for leaving the fold! God will punish…blah blah.”

It’s very, very sad.
It’s a good way to control people though.

I am so GLAD for you that you are making a good way for yourself!
Keep up the good work & informing others about churches that abuse.
Thumbs Up!

BRAVO!

The time is long past due for people to start taking truth as the authority rather than the “authority” as truth.

My history is very much the same, having spent 38 years in legalistic “Baptist” sects.

By definition they ARE cults, which prevent you from feeling led by the Spirit of Truth to think outside of those walls.

May every human experience a release from such traps, and learn to experience the FREEDOM in Jesus.

Jonny

@Lori
Lori…..wow, seriously it was like reading my own story. I was not in the FBI church my whole life like you were. I actually came INTO the church at 27 and stayed until about 8 mo. ago. My husband and I are still trying to wrap our minds around the last decade of our lives. We had our children in the tiny little Christian school connected to the church and so when we finally started to see the abuse and hypocrisy in the church it was like turning our lives upside down because it meant not only leaving the church but also taking our kids out of their school and sending them to the “evil” public school. You are SO right about the fear part and bringing up the demise of others who left as a scare tactic to stay there. I literally felt like I could not even breathe I was so scared when we left. I sometimes still feel that way. There are flaws in the public schools for sure, but I have to say that I am not sure there could have been a worse message sent to my children than what was being presented to them by the “Christian leadership” in the school they were attending. Not to mention the lack of true education. My 4th grader is way behind because they hire unqualified people to teach and pretty much think you are ridiculous to worry about your child’s academic achievements as long as they are in a Christian school, that is all that matters. I was definitely brain washed into believing that. I am not a stupid person and I knew logically that much of what they were saying was way off base, but logic has very little to do with faith, and so I blamed myself for not being spiritually strong enough to believe what they were saying. Honestly, my family (siblings, parents)could not believe I would be so irrational as to think this was best for the kids. Looking back, I’d kinda like to slap myself upside the head. But when you are under mind control, you seriously do not trust yourself to do ANYTHING if it is not backed up by those “all knowing” 45 people who regularly attend church with you. I am just relieved to be gone and on the road to really embracing Christ again. I am so happy He loves me despite all of my flaws. One day I pray my family will finally feel free of the judgement. THe one who was affected the most is my soon to be 18 year old. He was treated pretty harshly over the past decade by the people in the school and he was one of the first to have pointed out all the hypocrisy years ago and we just kept telling him to trust God and we did nothing. Honestly, we believed we were in the right place doing the right thing. Now naturally he is a little hardened toward the things of God and I do not blame him. I just pray God will capture his heart once again and allow him to embrace the true love of Christ. Your story was a true encouragement that we do not stand alone and we are not nuts. Other people have been through the same thing. God bless you.

Informative site.At 13 years of age,a friend invited me to church.It was one of these deals that had a fleet of buses that went out into the poor and mid income communities and picked up “us poor, ignorant, little minority kids” and evangelized us with tootsie rolls and subpar sunday school teachers that were, in hindsight; condescending, repetatative in their lesson delivery, unwittingly prejudiced, and adamant that KJV was the final authority on Gods word.Yes, it was one of these IFB churches and it was the late 70′s and i was very young, but inquisitve about God and learning about the word of God from the only source I knew at the time. Thankfully, my parents warned me of the dangers, and so I kept a safe distance.I do remember some of these so-called bus drivers(Bus Captains they were called) frequently visiting some of the more attractive teen girls on their routes. I thought nothing of it, because remember; I was only 13 and so were they.Judging the “bus captains” or their motives is pointless; however, I will say that the tragic stuff that has happened to some of these people subsequently, over the years, is really mind-blowing.
I consider myself a lay Buddhist at present day(43 yo) and I will say that the “Law of Karma” does exists in this life and possibly the next and how you treat people is a reflection of your true spiritual state.
Evil is reciprical just as Good and calling yourself pastor, deacon, brother,sister, father, whatever is only a label.
Peace and thanks

I was at church , about 5 all other member’s above me leving… and the film when on… my older sis beside me it was the nazi’s and a chistian man being pulled apart by a truck on all four.. then a child having his or her eyerdrum brust with a stick..by the nazi party…this is not a dream, i remember it…. this is not what u dream I didn’t find this by accidentup in a child’s head….. This is somthing they remember for the rest of the life’s….. WHY…..

Hi sheila..I think you’re refering to the Ron Ormond / Estus Pirkle Film “If footmen tire you, what will horsemen do?” This film was made in 71 and was Pirkle & Ormonds’ vision of what america would be like if communist forces took over.In retrospect the film has become an underground cult classic(not because of it’s cinematic value) but because of it’s over the top, propaganda-esque,greasy way of trying to make a social commentary on something they had no clue of.It’s awkward, campy,made on heresay and on testamonies “they heard”.Sheila..thats how propaganda works and why the images stuck with you.Hope I’ve shed some light.Peace.

This comment was deleted by the moderator. Comments are welcome, ad hominem attacks aren’t.

**Update: I’ve moved this comment. Please click here to read the comment and my reply.

I attended a fundamental baptist church a few years ago. I never felt comfortable with the kjv only doctrine or the dress code. The pastor preached a message in which he declared the kjv doctrine to be a fundamental of the Christian faith. I proceeded to question him in private about this since I believed he was in error. He told me I needed to submit to his teaching. I told him that I could not submit to an unbiblical teaching. He told me that I needed to find another church if I wouldn’t submit to his teaching. I did just that. However, my wife refused to leave. Again, I approached the pastor in private to insist that she should leave as well so we could attend church together. He only maintained that my wife didn’t need to follow me if I wouldn’t submit to him. And of course, submitting to him meant attending his church.

Unfortunately, my wife left me a few months later. I contacted the pastor a number of times to affect reconciliation with my wife, but he will not do anything unless I go back to his church and submit to him.

As for my wife, she does not want to have anything to do with me because I attend a ” worldly” church. With all of that, she is treated as a member in good standing and teaches Sunday School.

This is a sad and an amazing story. I pray for my wife every single day.

I am so thankful that i have God’s Word, and the assurance that comes from a personal knowledge of Jesus Christ and His Word.

Hello everyone. I have only been christian a few months but have been studying scripture for a couple years.I am SO GLAD I started reading scripture before I started looking for a church.

I hear these horror stories all the time and the couple of IFB churches I have visited , you can just see the cult like atmosphere. Everyone is in a shirt and tie , or some dress from the 1300s , and the joy and smiles you see in the church are completely phony.

Funny thing is , I agree with a lot of their principles. It IS sinful to watch non christian movies and play most video games. So for those of you who left on that basis , I must say that you were wrong.

But most of their rules have no basis in scripture at all. Rules against christian rock , women wearing pants , and 8 trillion other things are the very reason people want nothing to do with christianity.

Its also the very reason the jesus movement of the 1960s was so strong. The hypees had mostly come to san fran in rebellion against the church culture of the time , and it wasn’t until the lord reached a couple of em that they realized that jesus is not this hellfire and brimstone , suit and tie , racist , legalistic god that the churches made him out to be.

Once the hyppees realized that , they were more than willing to accept jesus with ooen arms, starting a REAL christian movement.

The IFB might be the most dangerous denomination out there , although there are plenty. And I for one , believe we need another grassroots jesus movement in this country again. We all need to just get back to the bible and lemme say I am. Very sorry about the abuse you all have suffered at the hands of these stoic christians

Hey Joshman, I think you are spot on about staying true to Scripture. That is the key. Jesus said,”you will know them by their fruit.” It wasn’t “you will know them by their rules, or kjv, or their dress code.”

A lot of people don’t know what to look for when they go to these churches. The people seem really nice, old-fashioned, and committed to God. The pastor ” preaches from the Bible” and things seem OK.

I am most concerned about people who have never been to a church, who don’t know any better. Some genuinely want to please God and follow Christ and this is all they know. We need to be ready to help people who are caught-up in these churches.

You are dead on brother. And that’s the thing. Someone may recently find christ on his own , but because his knowledge of scripture is scant , he gets caught up in the heresies of the first church he walks into.

5 years down the road , he is so ingrained into that culture , having read scripture thru denominational eyes , that he can’t even recognize unbiblical teaching when it is presented to him.

I have never had a serious discussion with a fundie baptist end well. They start out nice , but when you show them from scripture where they are wrong , the tone changes quickly. And then they start calling you unteachable and all kinds of other name.

What is it about that denomination that produces so mane pompous asses?

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Returning to our first love may not be so much about our loving Him as much as it is in coming back or even staying in the place where we realize that we are loved by Him. I John – We love him because he first loved us….. Even with all our brokenness, waywardness, and sin. We have a Father that loves us like no one on this planet ever has or ever will. Those who are well loved, love well. It’s not about rules of dress, which book, where we attend; it’s about Him and He is rather fond of each of us.
Live loved! http://www.lifestream.org/waynes-books.php?bid=5

Comment moved to the Shared Stories page.

Thank you for this site.. I thought I was the only one who had experienced such pain. By the grace of God (and a much needed intervention by my family) in the last year, I have recently been able to seperate myself away from an abusive IFB. It was VERY difficult at first when I was shunned by my “brothers and sisters” to bring me back into the fold and into submission, but I am also finding that several people have been through similar circumstances and they can either make one bitter or better. I have seen both and I choose better. I am now in a balanced evangelical church. Thanks again for this site.

One of the things I have come to terms of late is the pursuit of pure, unadulterated truth, or to put it simply, “Above All: Truth”. When I became a victim of spiritual abuse by IFBCs, I decided to check and validate everything they (IFB leaders) have ever told me, from KJV only, to tithing and church history. I’m still on that quest and have come to the conclusion that I will never know the complete truth this side of life, maybe in the next one, (then again where is it stated that once we die we will be omniscient?).

If my faith, denomination, church, etc, cannot stand up to the scrutiny of honest questions and examination of truth then it needs to be cast aside. For example (this is for you hard-core IFBs): Suppose for a minute that we have solid, undeniable evidence that the KJV-Only stance is incorrect or that the KJV Bible has errors due to the translation process. Now most of you IFBs will have stopped right there and not understood the question so . . .one more time: SUPPOSE, that we have solid, UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE that the KJV-Only stance is incorrect and that the KJV Bible has errors due to the translation process (Ok IFBs, hang in there don’t switch off, just SUPPOSE!). What will you do? Will your faith crumble because it is centered on a human endeavor? (The KJV translation was after all done by humans not angels.) Do you have the courage to look at that portion of your faith/belief and say “that belief was wrong”? What if the same thing can be said about tithing? Or other precepts of the IFB movement? Most members of IFB churches that I know will not consider such questions and operate almost as if they are in a cult. They will run away because it threatens their entire spiritual world and they are afraid. Like the classic scenario of the abused child that refuses help because despite the abuse (or incorrectness of teaching) that is all they know and the alternative (the unknown) is not acceptable. Despite the guilt they feel over some of the smallest things in life, despite the fear that God will send the “Devourer” (Mal 3:10-12) if they don’t tithe, or God will visit judgment upon them if they do not attend every service or church event “Not forsaking the assembly” (Heb 10:25-27). Some will reach a level where they feel they are doing it out of love for God and not guilt, but what happens when that feeling dissipates? That’s right, you start doing it out of guilt/fear! (Come on, admit it, it’s ok, you can tell us, we’ve been there Yet despite all this, they feel they are in the proper spiritual world where everything is as it should be. Until the abused reach a level of pain where they say enough is enough! Have the courage to start asking questions at your church! Ask them the hard ones! When they give you there standard, patented IFB answers, go to the internet (Google It!) and research the opposing views, print them out, go back to your preacher/SS teacher and sit down with him and review them point by point. Here are some good ones to get you started: Is tithing for the New Testament church? What evidence do you have to support Pre-Trib Rapture theory? What is Preterism? History of KJV-Only issue.

I predict a couple of outcomes once you start doing this: 1. the preacher will meet with you and tolerate this a few times then tell you to stop asking questions or leave the church. 2. The preacher will start to avoid you and make excuses why he can’t meet, may defer you to a deacon/Sunday school teacher, if you persist he will ask you to leave the church. 3. The preacher will start getting mad and start using you as the topic of preaching during subsequent services. 4. Maybe, just maybe, the preacher will meet with you and welcome your quest for truth and embrace your endeavor.

People who have written on this site opposing Mr. Steve Sorenson simply lack the courage to honestly look at their IFB beliefs/movement with an open, clear, un-predisposed mind. They have been successfully programmed to lock their mind and throw away the key using the very scriptures they profess to follow. They will justify cruelty, anger, name-calling, profanity and violence all in the name of their god. I see them stoning the woman caught in adultery whereas Jesus simply let her go. Do you have the courage to see if we the abused are right? Try it! God will not condemn a person who is honestly searching for truth right? Ask God to show you and have the courage to take the answer even if it goes against the preacher/church/denomination. After all, you have been preached that there are incorrect wayward churches out there; all you want to do is make sure you are not in one of them.

I can tell you of the wonderful freedom and happiness my wife and I enjoy now that we no longer attend these churches. We stopped tithing years ago and that “Devourer” fellow (still sounds like WWF character or something doesn’t it?), he never did appear. I have not lost my job, my car did not explode (boy, sometimes we make God out to be a terrorist don’t we? Car bombs and all.) I have spoken out against these so called men of god (yep, little ‘g’ on purpose there) and no “She-Bears” have appeared to devour me. God has not killed my kids. I will continue to call out these men of god as I see them, some are ignorant fools and some are just plain asses. I don’t answer to them anymore; in fact they in part should answer to me for leading me astray so many years. They should answer to you too; after all they claim to have the truth! (Again, Google what they are teaching) For those that doubt my experience, understand that I was well on my way to becoming one of them. I was an Adult Sunday school teacher, preacher and deacon over the course of my IFB life and was on the cusp of enrolling/attending Ambassador Baptist College in North Carolina following after Ron Comfort. Glad I didn’t. I would rather be an “Honest Sinner, than a Fake Saint”. And I will be the first one to tell you I am not perfect or holy, but then again, unlike most IFB preachers I’ve known, I never claimed to be. Peace, out!

Interesting note: The group of people that got yelled at the most in the Gospels were; (yep,you guessed it) the Pharasees. The same group that would give a tithe of their herbs/spices but ignored the weightier matters; justice, MERCY, faithfullness. Sounds tragically familiar.

I like the site very much. God open my eyes up to what I was just a year ago. I was caring about the rules that the Independent Baptist set. I thought I had to earn Gods love by doing all the right moves I could never live up to all the rules. Most people in this movement become mean and many keep getting saved. I began to study this and found that many people feel the same but afraid to speak out. Most get saved again and again because the movement makes you feel if you sin your not saved. There are a few Independent Baptist churches I been to that do not act like this but let me say there are very few of them. My study began six months ago I been to over 110 IFB churches. Took notes and talked with members .Let me say so many members are ready to get out and many just go because thats all they were taught. The number one thing I see is the IFB does not want you to think for yourself. There is so much mind control out there it is sad whats happening. I also learned that its movement is going down fast. Pastors, most of them do not study and are poor on knowledge so if you have some bible knowledge it makes them feel very uneasy.The number one thing I found is there known for being mean and nasty people also strange. Sad to say 90% of members do not believe in what ther taught. The pants and dress issue is a joke.There funny doctrine is so confusing that members do just about anything.If your in this movement you better be real careful it can destroy your family I saw this over and over again.

Thanks for the website. I am in the process of detaching from my in-laws over these very issues, their “know it all” attitude is overwhelming. Although I know it is wrong to feel this way, I almost feel like not even discussing church or my faith with anyone. I am so sick of their dominating, judgmental attitude that I am ashamed of how they represent Christianity. I am sad for the people around me who really need church and some sort of walk of faith and they will never know that because of how turned away from Christianity they become over these kinds of folks. Again, thanks for the website and the information.

Hello;
I attended an IFB church for only 2months off/on so I donot know all about them church wise I have been on both sides. One IFB with a pastor whom my husband didn’t even like & the other one it was lovely,but God didn’t call me there. I am now with the Chicago Bible Students here in Texas & I can tell you, reading the bible in another version besides KJV (though some in my congeregation still use that one,& have others)w/o being critisised like the IFB church has done. I hope no matter what cultish church you came from ,know that God can heal you. It isn’t the scriptures that are bad, but how people abuse them.I wear a headcovering(mantella type) during my biblestudy/congregational time& yes I wear dresses/long skirts as well, but also wear pants during the week when needed & hmschool my children. We put God first& if that means leaving a cult like atmosphere to get a better walk with God, let it be.thanks for sharing your website.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for articulating what has happened to you and for allowing me to know that I am not alone. You help me understand that I was correct in pulling my family out of an IFB church.

We still have so many friends in the church that need to read your story. They don’t agree 100% with the philosophy of the church, but I wish they could see how they are enabling stories of abuse to continue by ignoring the “dog poop in the brownies”.

Thanks brother, I can hear the “well done” you will one day receive!!!

Hello. I have never been involved with an IFB church,but have a friend who recently has. I am deeply concerned for her. Please let me know how I can help her. I have finally come out and told her I think she is involved in a cult. She became very angry. Any suggestions on how to share the truth with her?

Thanks!

To Gloria,

I am involved in a similar situation with my wife. She is attending an IFB church in Butler, PA.

The fact that your friend became angry with you because of your concern indicates to me that something is wrong there.

I would try to maintain a friendship with her. This may be difficult, because people who are legalistic do not like being around ” worldly ” people.

Point her towards the truth. Whenever the opportunity presents itself, give her clear Scriptural counsel that exposes error. The truth will set you free.

Then I would pray. Behind these cults, if that is what it is, satan is in control to a degree.

I certainly feel for your predicament. I know what it is like to lose someone you love to a church that looks very religious, but is in fact enslaving.

One prayer you might want to consider is a prayer I have prayed many times for my wife. You can find it in 2 timothy 2:25-26. The following chapter has also been helpful for me.

I will pray for you and your friend.

you people are a bunch of heethans. Just because you walk out of the church house with your feelings hurt doesnt mean the church or pastor is in the wrong. the word of God pricks even the coldest hearts and how dare you say that you would pull away from the Bible as a tool. If you read you KJV Bible which is the one you should read because it was inspired by a KING the way God intended it to be. He was inspired by his faith to try his hardest to make a direct original translation for the English speaking people.anyway if you read your bibles at all you wouldnt be able to contradict half the things you are saying. Heck even if you read a new american standard which is an abomination in my opinion you could still not contradict these things you are saying.People these days expect to FEEL GOOD like Joel Olsteen or somebody and forget about sin. If you think being a christian is a walk in the park you are WRONG. you should be proud to stand up for christ and be persecuted and beat down and have no friends. you shouldnt want to be around wourldy people, which is straight out of any scripture from any bible even the wrong ones. All these new Bibles are clearly mistranslated on some parts. However, though I am an IFB I do believe that you dont have to be led to christ by a direct verse from the KJV. You could lead someone to christ from word of mouth or even a track. What happen to people won to chirst befor bibles were even printed. I guess if this post is even offensive it will probably be removed to promote this websites cause, but I hope it reaches who its meant to and helps you to open your eyes.

THanks for your thoughts & ideas, Bob. You are so right, the Word of God is the “sword of truth”. I have avoided “bible bashing” with her. I have honestly not said much, because she became so upset, as well as brought in her husband. Sigh…
I do understand the workings of a cult. I was a Mormon for 19 yrs of my life, and understand well the trappings. I pray one day your wife will be set free in the perfect liberty of grace!

I think you are way over exagerating the IFB church. I am a member of an IFB church and it is definitely not what you are describing. I’ve attended other IFB churches and they are also not what you are saying. In fact, I’ve attended other “Christian” (non-IFB) churches and my life wasn’t changed until I was shown the real truth. Seems the IFB churches are one of the few that are willing to do that. Once I saw what God really says in the Bible, my life truly changed and I am happy and free knowing that God loves, accepts, and forgives me. There is nothing I have to do to earn my salvation. I no longer suffer from depression and feelings of suicide. We have a close family and I have WONDERFUL children! Doesn’t sound like what you say. This is definitely not a cult, the IFB church does not preach you cannot be saved outside of this church, I have never heard that in any of the IFB churches I attended. I love my IFB church and they are like family to me!!

I was pleasantly surprised to find this site! I intend to return and read as many of the comments as possible. It’s great to discover that I am not the only survivor of an IFB church!

I was raised in an IFB church in the 1970′s. It was a horrific experience that still causes me pain. My parents were normal before they became indoctrinated. My family’s life looked happy on the outside, but inside it was full of fear and what I call “religious abuse.”

The long term effects of how that church negatively influenced my life are numerous. When I was 18 years old, I left that church. Why do those days still haunt me? I don’t think my parents realize how horrific those days were for me.

I think I was fortunate to have had a good solid upbringing as a young child before my parents joined an IFB church. Even as a child, I knew when the teachings got bizarre and just plain wrong. I would sit in church and ask myself why my parents were going along with the things that were being preached as “God’s word.” I knew deep inside that it was inappropiate and abusive to the church members.

People were taught that the preacher was telling them exactly what God wanted them to do and if they did not do it, they were going against God. The rules were so ridiculous. Even as a child I recognized their dogma for what it was. I am so thankful that I was blessed with an open mind and that I had the courage to maintain my sense of self throughout those rough years.

The church’s practice was to verbally beat people down so low that they had no will of their own. Some of the adults did the same thing to their kids when they got home. At times, I had to pretend to be beat down, but, I never was. I prayed to be rescued and one day I was. I grew up and made my own way in the world and thank goodness, it didn’t make me hate God. I knew all along that God had nothing to do with the IFB church.

I never understood why my parents didn’t recognize what was happening. I’ll post more details later if anyone is interested in reading. I would like to know how extreme the cruelty became in other churches across the country. I saw the cruelty this faith teaches firsthand. I also saw it at least 10 other sister churches. (Other IFB churches that we socialized with, but had no technical connection.)

Some of my family is still in their IFB church. I have not attended it in many years and have no intention of doing so. From what I can see, it may have changed somewhat, but I can’t be sure. They still have many of the same rules and they still don’t promote education. I believe that higher education threatens them.

I developed my own ambition and went on to graduate from college and obtain a post graduate professional degree. In my experience with the IFB churches, there were rarely any members who had any higher education, unless they had attended an IFB college such as Bob Jones University.

To Daniel,
I am not sure your posting deserves a response, but here it is.
It should be obvious to everyone that most people here are not complaining about hurt feelings, but overt spiritual abuse. This is an issue that should concern you as well. Jesus said that it would be better to have a millstone tied around your neck and be thrown into the sea, than to cause one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble. I think it is pretty serious.
As for Bible translations, if you can show me one verse in the Bible that supports the KJV-only doctrine, I will crawl on my hands and knees to the nearest IFB church ( about five miles away) and offer a public apology.

I am not really sure how to respond because I am currently IFB, my husband says to obey him in all things and so that’s what we are. My family is concerned about me and think I’m starting to think i’m in a cult. I will admit I am King James only, wear ankle length skirts / dresses, no newspaper or TV and that really doesn’t bother me too much, but there are other things that I notice. The biggest focus seems to be on dress codes, on the fact that almost everyone else is a cult but us (that must seem funny on this site), and other Baptist denominations are wrong. There is not much love for the brethren outside of our small groups. We have taken things to the extreme. No make-up, cutting or braiding your hair. No, I do not even own a pair of pants (an allowance was made for thermals under my dress because I get really cold) I was really happy when I got saved and we served the Lord joyfully, but we left the IFB church and went to a more stricter one. I have no problem with no t.v. (glad we finally got a computer) and on a few occasions my husband lets us have meals with family. But everytime I say the wrong thing, it is supposedly of the Devil and I must not be right. Not everyone is like this but I am not sure what to do because I have been programmed that I am in rebellion for my thoughts. We are not serving the Lord like we use to and I really miss that. Sometimes I think we push people away. That is sad because I don’t want anyone going to hell. I’d rather tell them about how Jesus died to save sinners rather than it’s not right to wear pants. And yes I can admit that I have become what some would consider Phariseeical, but things are starting to look different to me.

To Alice,

It looks like you are in a really tough situation.

I would like to offer one thought. Do you want to follow Christ above all else? Is God’s approval more important to you than than everything else? Is pleasing Christ your number one priority, even above your family?

Honoring God above all others can be difficult, especially if your family is not supportive of that. Remember that Jesus said if anyone comes to Me, and does not hate ( in comparison of his love for me) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

God’s approval is worth far more than anyone else’s. Making Christ number one brings us liberty and joy. The blessings of following Christ, however, may come with persecution.

I am just trying to say that your personal relationship with Christ is number one. No one or no thing should keep you from following Christ and loving him with all of your heart,soul, and yes, your mind.

Alice,

My heart goes out to you. I’m glad you found this site! I can’t tell you what to do, however, I can tell you what happened to my family. My original post is the second one above. My early years are about 95% like the story of the author of his site.

My family, especially my father, were great, warm, fun loving, wonderful people before they got into the IFB church. As they got more and more brainwashed, they changed as people. They changed in a negative way. They alienated everyone in our lives, including family, except for other devout IFB followers. It was HORRIBLE for the children of the adult members. I could see how miserable my parents became, yet they claimed they were free in Christ Jesus; that they were reborn. It was all a lie. They had no REAL comfort in their church, although that is the most important, all consuming thing that existed for them. They were obsessed with condemning other people for allowing the devil in their lives. If they saw me watching American Bandstand, they might call the family into the dining room and preach and pray over me to be delivered from Satan for hours.

All of my skeptism was confirmed a few years ago when my brother developed a drug addiction. My parents both had breakdowns. They were devastated by it and literally fell to the floor crying and screaming. They were inconsolable. Who did they call? Me and my other brother. They did not call anyone from the church, not even their pastor!!!!!!!

During this time, they never spoke of God, they never mentioned the Bible or prayer! My brother and I had to babysit them and hold them for days to get them through this. I asked myself, “How dare you torture me in that cult for years growing up and yet when you need the support of God and that church, it’s as if they didn’t exist!”

After my brother got out of rehab and got straight, they returned to the church and took my brother with them! I prayer for them all now. It just breaks my heart. They are now in their 60s’ and 70′s and will never change. I know that. I regret that I actually lost my REAL parents in 1971. I pray that you find peace.

I find reading these incents interesting. I dont beleave they hold any weight on all IFBC I have been to all kinds of churches and i have never found the amoiunt of truth i have found in IFBC. Never once has any of the pasters i have served under ever told me that the KJV is the only bible to read. but they have said that it is the only true translation of the bible nor have they told me that I need the Bible to get saved through. every paster in any IFBC I have been to has told me to (read the Bible). Now they have told me the only way to be saved is through Christ and if you dont beleave that then its a reflection of your beliefs not the IFBC teachings. now i havnt lived your life so i cant say what you beleave but i do know what i beleave and i beleave that IFBC are a good faith based teacching. iI hope you fine the truth in your search God bless you

athlic churches

you probably haven’t been to many. As I said earlier, we were in an IFBC and loved it. We were serving the Lord faithfully, passing out tracts at the downtown area, working in another ministry helping. Whe we left that church we went to another IFBC (another state) and then things changed. We we told you could only get saved by the King James Version (we were)dresses and skirts are required 24/7 for females and no shorts or tank tops for men. Again I do not have a problem with most of that. Again I mentioned we are to have no television, we do not take the paper, women are to have long hair and men’s must be kept short, beards were often frowned upon but wasn’t a big issue. We were not to fellowship with those of other denominations or what we considered liberal IFB churches. We had certain sister churches to meet with. I like the standards and the King James only stance. However, in this new church the standards became most of all the preaching. Since their is a syndrome “the man of God” fear was placed on those that would dare to question his authority because we were warned of God’s chastisement on us, the evangelist that came in said the same thing. If you think the pastor’s wong you follow him anyway and pray for him and let God deal with him. When we learned certain things about our pastor’s (we all are equal at the cross) it had a bad effect on our family in an extreme way. I am not against stndards, my husband now has a problem with going to church because none of them we have been to since have met up to the standards (appearance and seperation)that we have been under except the mennonite church we’ve attended and he says there wrong too because of doctrine. He doesn’t want to preach anymore either. I really love my family and don’t want to go through each day hearing how I’m of the devil because I mention trimming my hair or saomething that offends him. (no I did not go physically against him and trim my hair) I want him to be happy again and there only seems to be anger. I am was divorced and married my husband. I am his first wife. He was offered and accepted a pastorate at a local Baptist church. It did not have the same standards as the IFB and he quit. But since I was considered a doubled married woman and he was disqualified by the IFB standard from pastoring (they let him preach but not pastor) we were rejected from them and now we are as if ex-communicated from what we come to know. Only a few will even talk to us now. No not all IFB churches are like that but when you have been pouded with preaching saying you have to act, dress, reject, and not waste your time on reprobates it’s alot to overcome. Although we are not there now and my husband doesn’t ask anything wrong of me, neither does he allow me to make many decision for myself. He believes the man should be controlling in authority in all areas. I cannot trim my hair, if I decide not to wear a hair covering then I am not as close to God (I recently asked about yhat because I do cover or did until a couple of days ago, No earings, makeup, braiding of the hair, ankle length skirts and dresses only, I cannot use his radio because I might listen to inappropiate music (CCM), If I disobey my husband I am in rebellion to God and if I obey his every rule I am becoming depressed. I am saved by grace though faith and want joy in my life.

to Deborah: and others
My daughter, now an adult ran away becuase we imposed some rules that were extremely strict and unfortunatley we did not show love toward her as we should. We did it because we did not think she showed the proper attitudes in our beliefs. I’m sorry I did not take the time to give her some choices and lessons in brotherly love, but we are now close and she is a married woman. She does wear pants now, but at least she usually keeps a long skirt in the car to change before she comes over. (Respectful)

To Robert:
I agree that many IFB churches may not be this way and in fact the first one I mentioned was a loving, caring, community evangelistic, church that cared about souls and winning the lost to Christ. They did not have the same rules as the second one (in a different state) did. They had joy and encouraged reading the Bible, and being involved in witnessing. And they believe the King James Bible is the only bible but that the others hold enough truth that a person can get saved. It was the first time I have been out on visitation and we helped the elderly. They also allowed the children to caroling.

I never even knew there existed a church as the one I spoke of until we went to the second church and things were on the other end of the spectrum. You could not even join unless you dressed a certain way. They were all about standards and I agree about the importance of standards because man sees the outside and God sees the inside, however almost all the preaching concerned that. There was little love among the brethren of the church because it seemed many were looking for faults in the others (which is what happens) They did preach you could only get saved from the KJV (and I am KJV only, but not sure on my stance about the salvation issue) I’ll go further to say that my husband was asked to pastor a church. The Church allowed things my husband disapproved of so he quit. Since the pastor of our church did not approve of him pastoring the church (although my husband was allowed to go off preaching)we are no longer wanted back. They said he was not allowed to be a pastor because I am a double married woman. As some of you know that means I was married and divorced before marrying my husband now. I am his first wife. Things seem to becoming more intense now than before or maybe I’m just noticing it more. May I add that my husband was a preacher, and we were both Sunday school teachers but because I had been married before he could not actually pastor. They may be right and us wrong, but the unloving attitutdes, nasty letters, and and asking us to not contact our friends from the church was too much. What happened to trying to reconcile and repentence?

They ain’t not all bad, and if I had not gone to that church and went through those experiences perhaps I would have a hard time believing anything the people on this site posted was true.

I am a proud Independent Fundamental Fire Breathing Baptist Christian. I respect everyone’s opinion but I have been to many Christian churches and have never been to a type of Christian church in which is so direct with Bible Doctrine. The Independent Fundamental Church is a blessing. Keep preaching that FIRE preaching.

Rodrigo,

What impressed me with your post is that you stated you respect everyone’s opinion. That is a good trait and not one that I encountered with my vast experience with IFB churches and followers. I am curious as to what part of the country you garnered your respect for differeing opinions.

In the southeastern part of the country, different opinions in IFB churches are the devils work and an attempt to sway you from God’s will. They are not well tolerated.

I have sat through numerous services in which anyone with a differing opinion was laughted at, mocked, condemned to hell or cast out of the church as an example of what happens to those whom disagree with their program.

If you love the IFB church you have found and its your free will, that’s fine. My parents never realized how totally controlled they were by their IFB church. I’m not saying you are, but my parents lost the respect and fellowship with most all non-IFB people, including family and never stopped to think why. They lost it from me, their daughter, and that didn’t even phase them. I had no agenda against the church. I was a 10 year old child, but I knew their way was full of intolerance and ignorance.

I saw thousands of fire breathing IFB sermons over the years and never saw how they contributed to anything accept to stir people into hysterical, sanctimonious behavior. It ran the kids from the front row to the back of the church.

Alice,
I just read your post. I am glad God is opening up your eyes to the truth. I want you to know I stopped and prayed for you. To have the courage to step away, and for your husband to see the light too. The Gospel = good news. It has nothing to do with how we dress or what version of the Bible we read. May God continue to encourage you!!!
IN Christ,
gloria

I was doing some googling about the IFB because I have a couple of married friends who were recently saved and became members of an IFB church, and came across this page. Hopefully I can gain some insight…

By nature, my two friends are very opinionated and intelligent and want to do what is good, but as baby Christians it is so easy to be decieved by legalism/old covenant if you have not done any research previously into what being a Christian is really supposed to be and how we are all made new in the acceptance of Christ’a free gift of eternal life.

Over the course of their membership my friend(the wife) has become thrown into teaching young children’s sunday school courses, and what I do not understand is why would they have someone who is new to the faith teaching others? In addition, it has become very apparent that her husband has become more controlling and judgemental of people who are supposed to be their friends, and they have both become judgemental of our friends who are very charismatic, of other denominations (such as myself, I am a born and raised Methodist, but have been doing a lot of searching into other faith traditions for the past 6-ish years.) The last time I hung out with them I noticed a tinge of hatred in my friend’s voice when she was voicing her opinion about our other Christian friends & their compassion for animals, or interest in science. It certainly seems to me that this is NOT loving Christian behavior, and they were not like this before they become members of that IFB.

I am trying to salvage a friendship with them, but it is becoming increasingly hard for me since it does not seem like they respect me as a person for having different gifts and beliefs than them. If anyone could help me out with this situation I would surely appreciate it. Thanks and God bless.

@Jodie

Hi Jodie,

I’m not sure what kind of research you are attempting to conduct. I think there are a number of posts here that give detailed descriptions of life in an IFB church and some may contain links. I wish you and your friends the best, but I would remain cautious. It’s difficult to understand the magnitude of the IFB church, unless you have been there.

My parents were indoctrinated over the course of about a year by the IFB. They were in their 20′s and while raised Methodist and southern Baptist, had been out of church for a few years. They were treated like royality by the church at first. My parents went from happy, good loving people to mean spirited grouches. They have mellowed since they hit their senior years, but my true parents never returned, I’m sorry to say.

I’m not sure what would have happened if one of their friends would have discussed concern over their behavior with them. I suspect my parents would have written them off as ungodly. They would not entertain any criticism of their church or its teachings. My father was so confrontational that most people didn’t try to cross him about his faith. He ruined most all of his relationships with familty and non-IFB friends. I was a child, but even I could see that most of them thought he had been brainwashed. He was truly a different person.

Do your friends have children? If so, I feel for them. The kids will suffer. I have no doubt about that.

Despite their profession of salvation and peace through the grace of God, I found them to be a very miserable bunch, who never missed an opportunity to degrade anything that was not sanctioned by them. They spent a lot of time on matters regarding the body, such as showing an arm or knee and not much concern with matters of the mind, such as education and mental health.

I am so thankful that I made it out without hating God and the Bible. That is saying a lot since I was verbally abused with it for years.

I hope you are able to help your friends. Keep us posted here.

Hi Deborah,

So you pretty much described them exactly! All I wanted to know is what the church is like and the experiences of members were like, since I know nothing of it. Unfortunately I just have not had the time to read through alll the posts everyone has made, just checked back to this today. But yes they do have children-3 and one on the way. I’ve met people at work and school who came from IFB families who were so hurt and frightened by their churches and the “God fearing” practices that it completely turned them off to God’s love, and it makes me very sad.

I also meant to say that I do have other Baptist family members who are nothing like what my friends are turning into. I have not confronted my friends about this but it is not just me that has noticed the change in their behavior and mentality, and I know that in 2 Timothy it talks about staying away from that kind of confrontation and arguments, because it will not do anything but cause hurt. I know it’s better to be patient and compassionate for my friends, but also that I cannot change what is on their hearts. It just bothers me that they spend more time ragging on other Christians who don’t adhere to the same doctrines they do, it is so retroactive to what we are really supposed to do, which is spread God’s love! A little while back they did mention interest in finding a different church, but were very VERY particular about their statements of faith so we shall see how this all plays out. I just hope it does not come to the point to where they alienate all their friends, because we love them and want them to be happy and blessed too. Thanks for the response and God bless you:)

Jodie,

You seem to have much compassion in your heart for your friends. You also seem to have a very deep and personal relationship with God. Hopefully that will assist you in creating a good example to your friends.

I am sorry for the length of my post, but there is no way to provide a sense of what I experienced without the details.

I can only say what I experienced in the IFB churches I attended growing up. I have family who still attend and they convey to me that the teachings are the same, although the degree of severity varies based on the particular pastor of the church. Some are more dogmatic than others, but the rules and practices remain the same in their church.

Some things that stand out in my mind were the mean spiritness of the church leaders, usually the preacher. I often felt that if the preacher was not so hostile, the members would have been more compassionate. The teachings hailed ignorance as holy. They taught that God can speak to and through you as an uneducated, uncultured, unprofessional “man of God.” That was VERY important to them, because once you establish that God is speaking to and through you, then anyone in the church is afraid to question you, because they would be questioning God.

With that established, they then lay out the rules. First get saved (code word for accepting Jesus as your personal savior, being reborn in Christ,) and usually this is done in a highly charged alter call in which many church members sing, cry, shout and beg. This comes after a long sermon of screaming and threatening people with burning in hell, never seeing their family again, being hit by a car, hit with cancer, etc.

The sermon will also contain digs at any other denomination and mocking the First Baptist Church, because they have fancy stainglassed windows and use proper grammar. They ridiculed any other church and any other practice. They would list the groups of people who were going to hell: Catholics, Mormons, etc. If it was around election time, they would tell you how to vote and how the liberal candidates were trying to persucute their church and have them put into prison. They taught that the ultimate goal of the government was to persecute the IFB.

The christians who really wanted to please God would do as follows and if you didn’t, you were considered worldly. Worldly is code word for sinful, not Christ like:

No pants on females.
No long hair or medium length hair on males.
No music except for gospel, that was approved by the church.Contemporary Christian music was not allowed as it was too worldly.
No attendance at any church that was not an IFB.
No other version of the Bible except for King James Version. Any questioning of this was grounds to be kicked out of church.
No smoking.
No alcohol of any kind at any time. And should avoid shopping anywhere that sold alcohol
No remarriage if you had a living spouse. No divorce. If you had been divorced and had a living spouse, you could not hold any office in the church or teach Sunday School.
No television.
No dancing of any kind, including ballroom, square or tap.
No mixed bathing, which means only swimming in a pool with people of same sex.
No going to a beach or lake because you could see someone there who had on a swimsuit of the opposite sex.
No movie theaters.
No attendance at a county or state fair.
No purchase of a lottery ticket. I knew a poor lady who was kicked out because she won $100,000. in the lottery.
No mental health treatment or rehab, because God would take care of that and you didn’t need any other help.
No ecology. It’s based on humanism.
No opportunity for a woman to speak in church. She could stand up in the congregation and give her testimony, but could not speak up front as
the men could.
No choir robes because women could hide their short skirts underneath.
No church bulletins, because they would hamper the holy spirit.
No public school education because they were brainwashing your children with ungodly messages to disobey their parents and teaching evolution.
No value on college education. They tolerated some Bible college at places like Bob Jones University or Liberty. NOTE: I have checked their rules and apparently both have lightened up on them over the years.
No focus on nature or admiration of animals. Pets should not obtain much attention or undue care. “Dog is a dog and should be put outside.”
No peace signs. It’s a sign of the devil.
No astrology. It’s satan’s work.
No Santa and no Christmas tree. It’s idoltry worhip.

No fellowship with worldly people, including people who do anything that is not in their rules.
No questioning the preacher about the rules. If you do, you will be called up before the church and “prayed” for so that God will get you back in line. If you fail to follow the rules and after being prayed for by the church, you are not “convicted” of your actions, then that means you are not saved and are going to hell. Then you should be kicked out of the church because they cannot fellowhip with a sinner in the midst.

This list could go on.

The worst thing I encountered was the refusal to consider any other point of view. Not only were differing opinions wrong, they were sinful and against God. They would often say that they could not guarantee that other demoninations would not go to heaven, but they were fairly certain that there were many “so called” Christians who would wake up in a lake of fire and regret that they stayed Methodist, or southern Baptist, etc.

Once we had a couple visit from a Southern Baptist church. The preacher stood up in his sermon and pointed them out and told them if they stayed in that church, he did not want their blood on his hands, because they were not right with God! It was so cruel to watch.

They convince the members that their way is the only way and the member becomes afraid to go against them for fear of disappointing the church and God.

Sorry for the length, but this describes only a portion of what I saw with this group. Others may have different experiences. I can’t say your friends church is like this, but it is MY experience.

Lastly, I will add that many of the preachers who did this to my family, left the church in scandal. Most after discovering they were having affairs with other married church members, stealing money, and one having criminal charges of molesting children.

I wish you and your friends the best.
God bless you all.

Not all Baptist are alike/similar. Primitive Baptist beliefs are very different from other Baptist denominations. Much of the abuse you describe comes from their belief in salvation by works not by Grace.

Clyd :Not all Baptist are alike/similar. Primitive Baptist beliefs are very different from other Baptist denominations. Much of the abuse you describe comes from their belief in salvation by works not by Grace.

Cyld, It’s true that you can find just about anything under the awning labeled Baptist. In my experience the abuse that has been mentioned above accutately describes the IFB mindset and they do believe in salvation by grace through faith. It’s through Jesus and him alone apart from works. The catch though is — now that you’re saved…..here’s the rules.

Mrs. Deborah you forgot no celebrating easter too. It is alright to celebrate Independance day and Thanksgiving though.

I am not against or for many churches. I was in an IFB church that I really liked and they loved and cared about others. The rules were scriptural because the pastor believed that if your not hindering the church that your home life should be a matter you take to the scriptures

Another church I was involved in is why I started seeking and searching because almost all the above applied. The preaching seemed sound but I notice we were changing and instead of being evangelical and wanting to get the gospel out, we were becoming nasty towards others and looking down on weaker brethren, and other Christians (especially the SBC) Maybe that ‘s why they have the term :fighting fundamentalist”

My husband went to extremes with the teachings to the point that even the church we were in wasn’t godly enough and they were to worldly (and that was one of the strict ones)Because I am starting to be in disagreement with my husband on certain issues our marriage is strained. It is hard enough that some look down on us because I am divorced and remarried. He has found another church for us to attend and I do understand that a wife is to be in total obedience but in my mind I think some things aren’t as they should be. I want to know what God would have of me and I search the scriptures wanting to know if it’s alright to do certain things. Even simple things;braiding of the hair, trimming it (i do have long hair) being able to see my children from first marriage, not telling people about them when asked if we have children. Sometimes I think it’s wrong to not tell the truth about it. (not referring to a lie but silence)My husband does not approve of ALOT of things and I know there not sinful but I have been so indoctrinated about submissiveness that I am not sure what the Lord would allow of my own free will. I tried to talk to my husband but as the IFB (only the extremist) teach, just do what your told or your out of the will of God and then comes the fear part. Sometimes I get scared. Fear of the Lord is healthy, being scared of constant wrath is not.

Alice,
I’m not sure how to respond to your post. It sounds very serious and quite sad. It reminds me of the sad and joyless life my parents lived as devout IFB.

I would actually advise you to talk to a professional about your situation. I would suggest you take care to protect yourself from any harm. I get that feeling from your posts. I could be wrong.

God bless you. I hope you will find answers to help you.

What religion can do, Christ can undo….

The people came in deeply oppressed, expressionless, looking like they’d come to a funeral, or at least another person from America telling them how they were failing. But as Kent and I began to share about Father’s love we watched a miracle take place. Oppressed expressions gave way to skeptical looks, then to hope, and finally to embracing God’s love for them and they began to laugh, ask questions and celebrate a rich heritage they hadn’t realized was theirs.

http://lifestream.org/blog/

That sounds beautiful

I have attempted to get help but it did not turn out well and my husband believes it is ungodly and worldly to do so when I am commanded to ask him, it may be that I would be talking to a woman that wears pants or has short hair, or wears makeup, or does not use KJV only or is of another faith. Sometimes I do think if it’s just him and how he is being an extremist or if it’s really the teachings of our beliefs that he just takes too far. (1 Corinthians 14:35)This site is important to me because I was really starting to get depressed and even thought of running away myself, but now I know there are others out there. As I said (for the benefit of all you IFB – which I still am) It may be that its just something my husband goes to EXTREMES about and not the church. The rules listed by Mrs. Deborah though do apply and I agree to an extent. Some allowances are made. I have to be careful about getting help because my husband mistrust doctors and believes most are of the devil.

It seems to be a common trait of folks to take one side of the story and run with it, especially if it involves wanting to live a life separated from things that might give an INDIVIDUAL trouble. I understand that there are many “religious” folks that hurt people in the name of their “religious” practices but I also understand that there are much more thefts, abuses, and outright injustices done in the rest of the world, not just in what is refereed to as the “IFB.” Shoulden’t professing Christians take each INDIVIDUAL case INDIVIDUALLY? Are the facts given by the posters on this site just a bit exaggerated at times? Surely there are problems in IFB churches but what about your church? What about your marriage? What about your kids? What about you? I’ve seen some things in various different IFB churches but I personally haven’t seen these different rules and regulations in many of them. In fact, in my INDIVIDUAL experience, I haven’t seen many of them in ANY of the churches I’ve attended. Maybe a few here and there, but never all of them. If there is physical abuse in a relationship get out of it. If there is physical abuse in a church house, get out of it. You decide what constitutes abuse for yourself. Bashing someone, even with the seeming intent to help someone, will never help the cause of Christ. He died for ALL sinners so that we might be reconciled to the Father. He rose again on the third day and proclaimed the victory over death, hell, and the grave forever and whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved! Repent and believe the Gospel and see what Jesus Christ will do!

Alice,
I have been following your postings and I find them quite interesting. I truly sympathize for you and the situation you are in.
I just wanted to remind you of one thing that I thought would be helpful. The bible is your one and only authority for truth. I know you must want to please your husband and respect him, as you should. However, God’s word is the ultimate authority. What God has said in his word is the final and ultimate authority on what is truth. Your husband has authority to operate within the framework of Scripture, that is all.
Just imagine if your husband were to ask you to do something that was a clear violation of God’s word. Do you think that God would be honored by obeying your husband over Him? Of course not. We must obey God rather than men.
I know your situation is difficult and delicate to handle. I just want to encourage you to make sure your number one loyalty is to Christ. I know that Christ will be honored if you put Him first, and you go to His word as your source of truth.
I am sure you know that God is not honored when we blindly obey people, whether they are pastors, parents, or our spouse. God is honored when we put him first and study the Scriptures to show ourselves approved. Read Acts 17:11 and notice how Paul calls the men more noble-minded, because they searched the Scriptures to see if what the apostle Paul taught them was true.
I hope this was helpful. I am sure your situation is far more complex than I understand it. I just want to encourage you and be of some help.

@bob

Bob,
I agree with your post above. I empathize with Alice because her story seemed quite severe and based on her description of her husband, I was concerned for her physical safety. Maybe, I’m off base, but when there is a concern for safety, I’m not sure what to say. I think your words are true. The problem is, no matter what she says to her husband, he is not likely to change his position. Then what do you do? It’s really a tough situation. I feel for Alice.

Alice:
I met Jesus at the age of 24. Man was I excited. I was alive with God. Life had come. Then I hunkered down and began running on the treadmill of performance. I mean, after all, we were doing something GREAT for God. Deeply involved in Church, Bible college, and then the ministry. But after thirty-two years, I found His life in me was slowly being suffocated. It had almost killed myself, and my family spiritually through our aberrance to religious obligation. We had walked the walk and talked the talk seeking to gain our Saviors approval not realizing we already had it. About three years ago in the midst of some deep questioning I discovered I had ran smack dab into “religion” in the church I was attending. I also found it was all over in my life. Jesus had been waiting all along. He breathed His life back into our relationship. My IFB belief system was crumbling fast. It was being replaced with what He had always wanted – Me to be loved by Him. We get it for about the first 24 hours after salvation. Then we seek to conform to this, that, and the other only to miss the relationship He desired to have. Today, I’m living loved, and loving others as He loved me. Jesus is always kind, tender, and loving. He has never forced His way into any of our lives.

From Anna, Mister God and the Black Knight by Fynn
“Sometimes Tich, I think it’s a whole lot easier for kids to know Mister God than it is for grown ups.”
“Why, Finn?” she persisted. Why?”
I didn’t quite know the answer to that one, so I just had to make it up.
“Well,” I began, “I reckon grown ups have often got so many problems of their own that they just haven’t got time to… er…er…”
“Play?” she suggested. “Play with Mister God. Eh? Play?”
“Something like that,” I said.
“Um. Grown-up people make church so, well, serious that they ne-ver have time to play, do they, Fynn?”
“I guess you’re just about right on that one, luv,” I replied.
“Too busy trying to earn enough money to pay the bills, I guess.”

Alice, Go play with Jesus for awhile. He really enjoys this.
Love your husband as you’re loved by HIM. John 13:34
Ya, might pick up a copy of “The Shack” (great playground) although the religious community may frown.

You are deeply loved.

http://www.lifestream.org/bodylife.php?blid=37
http://lifestream.org/waynes-books.php?bid=5

To Daniel Smith,
Not to be mean or sound attacking, but I don’t believe your post will be removed. Your post is the perfect example of what everyone on this site is talking about.

1.) Of all the posts here, your post (which represents the Independent Fundamental Baptist faith) is by far the angriest. You lash out and attack everyone (name calling and belittling). Do you think Jesus would respond in the same tone?

2.) Your answers are very canned. In other words, they are answers we’ve all heard before. From reading your post, all I hear is the IFB church. No where do I hear “you”. You don’t offer much depth to what you have to say. Very robotic and unnatural.

I hope you don’t take my comments as an attack. There has to be a reason why you are on this site and reading through what people have to say. It is because there is a little light inside of you fighting vigorously to be let out from above a cloud of lies and deception the IFB has created over your eyes, mind, and life. In the words of the IFB…I pray for you for you are lost. And really, I do pray for you!

I meant to say: “Your post will NOT be removed”

Also, recognition is the first step to recovery. I’m glad you are aware of this site. It has helped me recover by leaps and bounds. You’re not alone!

Daniel Smith, I went back and reviewed your last post after reading the post of Jacob above. Your words are quite familiar to me. I grew up IFB.
My parents have been in it for years.

I recently told my mom, who still attends IFB church, that my disabled cousin had been uplifted by hearing a sermon from a popular preacher on the tv. My mom immediatley recoiled and said that she bet it was easy to “feel good” when someone says nice things about God. Her church is way above that kind of thing. I was initially surprised that she would begrudge a disabled little lady a blessing, but then I realized it was not my mom speaking. It was something she has been forced to belief. She believes that she must be verbally abused in order to live right. It’s sad.

I will encourage you to continue to read on this site or any other place that offers information. I only wish that my parents would have been able to read and learn about what they were getting involved with.(IFB) If that had happened, perhaps I would still have my great parents from my early childhood.

I’m sure there must be people in your life who worry and are concerned about you. I hope you do keep your eyes open and really listen. People on this board share their experiences because others have the right to know. We can only hope it will make a difference in someone’s life.

You are making a judgement call on ALL IBF’s. I guess we all could do the same thing in regard to the Catholic church. But I, unlike you, don’t judge a denomination based on a few bad churches. I’ve been to several different IBF’s due to moving around and I am here to tell you, they are the most loving group of people I have come across. They would and have done anything for me and my husband. There was one church in particular that although we had only been there less than five times, helped us out so much financially or else we would have lost our place to live. They didn’t even know us.
The church back home, those people are God loving and God fearing people! Most wonderful people I’ve come across and I miss them dearly. You are just being vindictive and I think you are going about this in a very evil manner trying to give my church family a bad name. As they say, it ain’t nothing but the devil. This really is an evil, evil move and I for one do not appreciate it! You really need to be prayed for. And by the way, how do I even know your story is true?
I don’t know what church you, the poster, went to and those who say you can’t question the pastor. Not true of every IBF. We can have discussions with our pastor anytime we’d like. We do have a deacon. What is the purpose of having a group of men, all trying to run the church. That is left up to the pastor and whoever he wants to appoint. He is the one who was called by God, not you guys.

@Lori

The Bereans weren’t Christians yet in Acts12. I am a Fundamental Baptist. Legalism is defined ” anything that adds to salvation” Noone in the Independent Fundalmental churches that I have attended has added to salvation. There are standards. Standards are important. How else would you be able to seperate yourself from the world “And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed” if you don’t have some kind of standards. Standards and legalism are not the same thing.@Bill

@Linda
iI HAVE HAD ALMOST THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO MY LITTLE GIRL, WHO IS NOW 26, SHE MET AND MARRIED IFB AND SAID AT THE WEDDING WHERE MY FATHER A METHODIST MINISTER, SHE SAID SHE HAD NEVER BEEN SAVED UNTIL SHE MET THIS MAN..AND I KNOW SHE WAS. BUT BESIDES BREAKING ALL OF OUR METHODIST HEARTSD. SHE HADS SAID SHE HAS TO STAY AWAY FROM US AS WE ARE TOXIC TO HER WALKING WITH THE LORD AND ONLY BELIEVESIN HERBAL CURES AND HAS POLYSISTIC OVARIAN DESIEASE AND I JUST WISH SHE WOULD SEE A DR. AND I KNOW GOD IS THE BEST PHISISIAN BUT I WANT GRANDKIDS AND I KNOW SHE DOES, SHE ACTS LIKE METHODIST ARENT SAVED SINCE WE WERNET IMMERSED, AND SHE IS ON ME ALL THE TIME. I GO TO CHURCH NOW TO BABPTIST AND PENECOSTLE AND METHODIST, I AM GETTING SO MIXED UP…MY PARENTS RAISED HER AND ARE VRY HURT BY HER…I AM GLD SHE ISNT ON DRUGS OR OUT IN THE STREET , BUT SHE ISNT THE SAME JULIE AS SHE WAS, SHE WEARS LONG HAIR AND , ONLY LISTENS TO CHURCH MUSIS WHICH I LIKE TO DTO ALSO … BUT SHE IS ARGUING THE METHODIST THING AND WE ARE HERE FOR SUCH A SHORT TIME AND I THOUHGT I TAUGHT HER BETTER THSAN TO ARGUE RELIGION…AND I THIBNK SHE IS SCARED ALOT OF THE TIME. SHE IS TRULWEY SAVED AND AS I AM AS WELL BUT SHE TLKS ABOUT THE DEVIL ALOT…ANYWAY AT LEAST SHE IS IN CHURCH AND MAYBE ONE DAY I WILL UNDERSTAND IT..ASHE IS A WONDERFUL GIRL AND I LOVE SO VERY MUCH I JUST WISH SHE WOULD LOVE US LIKE SHE USE TO…..AND SHE ALSO ARGUES WITH SRCIPTURE…

Candi,
I am truly sorry to hear about your daughter. Just keep loving her and praying for her. I was involved with a religious cult for 19 yrs, and my family kept loving me and praying for me.

Hang in there,
gloria

@ashley. You, yourself, may not “judge a denomination based on a few bad churches” but the Independent Fundamental Church (which you are a part of) does judge everyone who’s not an IFB. And that percentage of non-IFB church going crowd is so much larger. In retrospect, I honestly believe the devil is working amongst and through the IFB Church.

Like I’ve said to Daniel Smith…there has to be a reason why you are on this site…a little inkling inside of you is curious what “we” (the people the IFB judges) think. That little inkling or voice, my dear, is God speaking to you. I pray for you!!!!!

…and Ashley…We have all come from an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church…this is more of a support group. We are not trying to be vindictive…much rather, we are helping each other out… I pray God removes the IFB blinders from off your eyes. I really do hope you can open your mind and heart a bit to think for yourself and read what we have to say without preconceived notions which the IFB instilled in you.

I’m sorry you had a bad experience. I swore I’d never ever go to church again no matter what kind. I went to Frontier Baptist Church in Durango, CO about 3 1/2 years ago and stayed. Our Pastor preaches out of the bible and we are told to take it or leave it. He is not going to defend the bible. He does not judge. He does not tell us what to wear. If we come to him for counseling he does ask us to be reading our bible first. He is humble! In my family experince we had a huge challenge medically – he was willing to learn about it and helped us through – he did not demand we do things his way. He prayed for us. Our church is small without much money but if anyone has a challenge EVERYONE helps in any way they are able to.

Ashley :
……. He is the one who was called by God, not you guys.

@Lori

Yeeaaah riiiight……any controlling, narcissistic nut-job can claim they are “called”, that proves absolutely nothing, except that a person “claims” to be “called”.

While we are talking about that, I say I’m CALLED!!!!
Yep, & this is what God is saying for me to speak here…..

“they loooove the chief places & loooove to be called “pastor” or “elder” & love the free reign of power over the flock…& they loooove the lack of accountability…& they love the FREE UNTAXED $$$$,
& they love having a gig where THEY are the “mouthpiece of God”…& they love all of the adulation & complete attention on them while “preaching”….& they just love “lording it over” the flock”…”
amen.

April :

Ashley :……. He is the one who was called by God, not you guys.
@Lori

Yeeaaah riiiight……any controlling, narcissistic nut-job can claim they are “called”, that proves absolutely nothing, except that a person “claims” to be “called”.
While we are talking about that, I say I’m CALLED!!!!Yep, & this is what God is saying for me to speak here…..
“they loooove the chief places & loooove to be called “pastor” or “elder” & love the free reign of power over the flock…& they loooove the lack of accountability…& they love the FREE UNTAXED $$$$,& they love having a gig where THEY are the “mouthpiece of God”…& they love all of the adulation & complete attention on them while “preaching”….& they just love “lording it over” the flock”…”amen.

I knew many so called “men of God” who fit your description, except they never called themself elder. They mainly requested to be called Preacher or Pastor. That was very important to them.

My experience was that all but one of the IFB preachers that I knew, was on an ego trip, even though they would deny it. Their messages were delivered in such an abusive and arrogant manner that I never felt safe in trusting much of what they said. I read my Bible and tried to listen to more educated speakers who seemed to be more learned in their speech and decorum. That was not easy to do since my parents ridiculed any preacher who was not an IFB preacher.

During my childhood and teen years, I was exposed to many IFB churches and preachers. (We had regular evangelists preach revivals and our members traveled to churches all over the southeastern US for revival services.) We regularly had missionaries speak from all across the world. I only saw one man that stood out as different. He was quickly discarded and replaced by a full fledged tyrant. The new man soon took over the church.

Most of the “men of God” that pastored at our church left in scandal and disgrace. It was because an affair they were having blew up, they had criminal charges filed against them for sexual abuse of children or they were caught stealing money. You must give the deacons credit though; they went out and replaced the guy with another one just like him. The fire and brimstone sermons that these wayward men had preached during their immoral or criminal activities, did nothing to disway the members from jumping onto the next “man of God” who exhibited the same talents for guise LOL.

The member’s and deacon’s fear of God’s wrath was so great that they could not or would not properly investigate the credentials of these men. They also blindly shattered relationships with family members because they had to do anything the preacher said because he was “God’s man.”

It was a sick system and resulted in creating illness in many lives. I viewed it as a form of illness even as a child and still see it in that way. My parents become sticken when they were in their 20′s and now they are in their 60′s and early 70′s. They are not as ill as they once were, but it is still rather debilitating to them as they still attend the church.

Does anyone who if there are any longtime IFB members (adults) or preachers, who have been deprogramed after many years and now speak out against the faith they once advocated? I know of some who got out when they turned 18 years of age, but I’m curious about any who get out when they are 40.

Deborah, So true what you have written.

I think when a man sets himself up in a system with absolutely NO accountability, it’s just a matter of time until he gets on a power trip. And I know what you mean, we were told not to listen to those “other” preachers, if you had a problem the pastor would always recommend one of HIS sermons.

It does seem that lots of folks in the IFB, at least the group I escaped from was quite rife with illness, both physical & mental. One guy killed himself, another lady, after we escaped tried killing herself a couple of times & was *church disciplined & excommunicated*…there is NO MERCY for hurting & damaged people. From my experience folks were USED & tossed out when everything was sucked out of them…their livelihoods, their wonder, their spirit, their $$$$, their health…. If you weren’t making the church or pastor look good….well they just didn’t want you anymore.

I joined the group in my early 20′s & left in my early 40′s….almost 2 decades of indoctrination, guilt & brainwashing to undo.

I can’t speak for others, but I can say that in many ways I have undone the indoctrinations/beliefs in my mind & spirit. I just can’t worship a God who would be so cruel, knowing his creatures were made “flawed”.
Nope, to me GOD is way more merciful than these peon little controlling “men of god”. I do believe there are many blogs of folks who no longer hold to the fundy view of God who at one time did.
All the best to you Deb,
April

@David David, the word “legalism” is not only used by Christians in connection with salvation and justification. When it is used in terms of justification, “legalism” mean adding works to faith, or human merit as a condition for salvation. The standards you are talking about are man-made traditions ADDED to the Bible. This is when the term is used in connection with sancification. Fundamentalists, like you, who believe in having these standards often answer the charge of legalism by saying that you believe in salvation is by grace alone, therefore you are not a legalist. You do not think that the term applies to your rules and regulations for the Christian life. but it does, whether you think so or not!

@David No, David. You are right and wrong. Legalism is not only defined as “anythings that adds to salvation” as you say. The term is used by Christians in connection with both justification AND sanctification. When used in connection with justification, the term had to do with man-made traditions added to the Bible, which are your standards. Fundamentalists like yourself will often answer the charge of legalism by saying that you believe in salvation by grace alone, therefore you are not a legalist. Having standards that go beyond what the Bible says is also legalism!! You’re like Jack Hyles.

Brian :@David No, David. You are right and wrong. Legalism is not only defined as “anythings that adds to salvation” as you say. The term is used by Christians in connection with both justification AND sanctification. When used in connection with sanctification, the term had to do with man-made traditions added to the Bible, which are your standards. Fundamentalists like yourself will often answer the charge of legalism by saying that you believe in salvation by grace alone, therefore you are not a legalist. Having standards that go beyond what the Bible says is also legalism!! You’re like Jack Hyles.

@April

April, I am so glad to hear of your liberation. It it rare IMO. It must have taken a lot of courage for you to do what you did. Do you really feel free of it?

I have been away from it for many years, however, I often still think of what I witnessed and how my and my family’s lives might be so different if we had only settled in a different church. I try to focus on the positive. I am the person I am, because of what I went through. I think I learned to be more patient, more open minded, and to stand up for what I believe in. I basically looked at the teachings of the IFB and how they conduct themselves and and tried to do the opposite. Not because I wanted to be difficult, but because I knew it was right. I knew from an early age that I never wanted to be like them.

I also learned how good people with good intentions can do bad things and hurt the ones they love, all in the name of IFB teachings. That is a difficult concept for many people. I had to adapt it or sever my relationship with my parents.

Do you still have family in an IFB church? How do the IFB church members relate to you now?

Deborah, The members in the group we left have absolutely nothing to do with us…& we relocated our lives to this state for their supposed “church”! Betrayal is what we experienced.
Through this I have learned a lot, but I am not happy with what transpired & I long for the day to see justice & some restitution.

I have tried to undo the dogma by focusing on the truths that were ignored in the cult. I think I literally had to re – brainwash myself to get all of the garbage out! Many things are triggering, I can not listen to anyone preach…I cannot stand the KJV….I would never step foot in any baptist church…it all just has too many painful memories. I refuse to listen to certain hymns. So now I focus on more positive things. LIfe is hard enough without being beaten down every friggen sunday with how we are all such “totally depraved” sinners & God wont be happy w/ us unless we do what the “pastor” says. Nope…I will not blindly accept that anymore! I also have spent much time reading Thomas Paine, Emerson…folks who dared to question dogma.

I feel for you if your parents are still in IFB. I guess you will have to do what your gut tells you. I absolutely believe some folks are sincere, I know I was…they don’t want to hate or judge or be cruel, but that’s what the leader’s dogma is telling them to do. They want to be righteous & think that being that way is the way to God. I hope you just use the good sense you have…I hope you can regain a measure of your relationship w/ your parents & also be able to have some peace inside. You will know if you’ve had enough…don’t let them run you down because you don’t believe exactly as they do. I don’t mean to tell you what to do, I just hope you don’t let yourself get hurt again.

I personally hope I never see any of those people again. That’s how bad the damage was to myself & my family. Matter of fact, we will be moving out of state soon & I will never see those people again.
Good riddance! They were so willing to toss us aside as if we meant absolutely nothing….well, so be it. They in turn, mean nothing to me.
Oh I do hope they escape the borg…I do hope they someday see that God is sooooo much more merciful, & not limited to what some preacher says about him…I wish them to find freedom because those people are in a prison of their own making. Well…it’s the leaders making that has the shackles locked anyhow. The leader is most responsible.

Thank God I have no family who are IFB, none were in the cult I got involved with. So that has made my exit & transition much easier than someone like you, who still has relatives w/ that mindset. ((((HUG))) to you…I can’t imagine having family reject me & I know folks who leave who have family in it much suffer a whole lot. I do see some people who are still in the group from time to time, but they pretty much avoid me, don’t go out of their way…it’s as if I am a stranger to them. That hurt real bad, but I made up my mind I would not give up who I am for those relationships. I could not just say “oooohhhh it’s all gooooood….I forgive….no problem” BS It wasn’t “all good” & I was absolutely finished playing pretend. I never was good at glossing over what I saw as the truth. Those groups have painted on false smiles…false joy…it’s all for show. It wasn’t truthful, it was very deceptive & I despised it, especially towards the end. At first, you don’t fully see it, but over time it becomes clear what it’s really about, & it aint about God.
Just my opinion.

I think the reason I’ve been able to undo much of the brainwashing is that I was NOT raised IFB. I was raised in a loving, somewhat liberal, very large Catholic family. My dad smoked & drank 7&7′s, we went to public school, sports, music, movies, television, etc….We didn’t have much $$, but the holidays were something very special. We would all sing Christmas carols at Christmas time & my dad would play the accordian for entertainment as well.

I got sucked into the IFB during college & joined after graduating. It was a very uncertain & vulnerable time in my life. I wanted to be a better person, I knew I had made mistakes…I was ready for some good changes to my life. IN steps an older student, getting her masters degree…& she really seems to have her act together! Over time she would quote the bible & finally loaned me some audio cassette tapes of a preacher. I listened & over time….not realizing it, the way the bible was used to manipulate & guilt me into accepting doctrines & agendas that I otherwise would not have accepted.

I got sucked into the vortex. You can read some of my story on this site at the “shared stories” link. Over time, to the chagrin of my parents & family, I gave up Christmas, Easter, Halloween, my goals, my friends, my family (to a degree)…..it was expected all of my focus should be on this group,(the true church) leader & I guess God was somewhere in there. Although I was very sincere & naive & had no idea how bad it really was, until it was too late.

Again, my saving grace was I REMEMBERED WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE FREE…I wanted to be free again!!! I felt in a prison in that group & so longed for the days when God loved me, no matter what. I missed the good times of the holidays & I missed my family…

Well Deb, I’ve rambled & I apologize for how long this is!

It’s not an easy road, but I hope you can find peace & realize that God is not some abusive deity waiting to hurl lightening bolts at us, but I believe in God’s goodness & mercy. Hang in there & I think you are doing GREAT for all you have been through.
Yours,
April

i have been following independent baptists for some years or so, and at first being baptist seemed lovely, then i realized some of them were so lovely and some of them were just pure trashy people. there are the arrogant ones and the fake ones. the fake ones like to hide behind what they say and lie about what comments they make to other poeple. in person theyre real nice…but they can also talk behind your backs too. i knew a lady who couldnt make it to church every sunday and they were talking about her behind her back like she was crazy. she wasnt crazy she just had an “Episode” of a mental illness…seems like they didnt care. some of them are so lovely. anyways i left because i felt like they were being deceptive and trying to manipulate people with mindgame tactics….though they have wonderful doctrine and go soul-winning, some of them are so fake when it comes to treating people with common deciency. they expect apologies and they cant even apologize for the bad things they say to other peoples faces, and behind their backs. when you say something at least have the courage to honestly respond when someone asks you! now that i think about it, i kind of wish i never went to the church at all, i wish i went to other churches that do believe in being “Saved” and following the bible. they are wonderful when it comes to doctrine but some are so unloving when its involving people are rumors! because of that, i have known some people who left that church with the denomination… it was fake! but some were so loving, thats the worse part. just because they look decent with their clothes it doesnt always mean that they will all act the same. some people i know left because their actions pointed in a way different to their “holy” doctrine. there are nice people there, but not everyone is as nice as the doctrine. who doesnt want to be modest? thats nice, but what about being modest in actions and day talk?

anonymous : who doesnt want to be modest? thats nice, but what about being modest in actions and day talk?

i hate to be bashing them on here. but i noticed those flaws. also theres one-sided gossip that they do sometimes. about other people, and other churches. they are wonderful in everything else but it may not have been for me. sometimes i question how some people can deal with the arrogance that some baptists happen to have. the “Soul-mate” teaching is what is taught to make christians believe that having a “soul-mate”…no, not all christians have a soul mate so they shouldnt be going around telling everyone they have one in sunday school. it isnt correct. might as well just tell them that the bible teaches that not every christian will have a soul mate. also, their doctrine about salvation is not legalism. they do beleive that accepting christ is the way to heaven and what they do is go door to door inviting poeple to church telling them how to be saved, (go to heaven) by believing in jesus. if anyone isnt sure about how to go to heaven just tell god that “i accept jesus into my heart and i believe that jesus died for me on the cross, that jesus was risen on the 3rd day from the grave” and there you have it youre going to heaven cause you trusted christ.

anyways some of the church folks were loving, but i regret ever having gone there. they are very smart with scripture which is wonderful, but after all that hypocrisy that i noticed, it made me feel as if some of them could not become trusted, which was awful, because i had to see some truths for myself. because of some of the advice i was first taught, i had more dilemmas than i originally had. i almost wish i hadnt have settled for that church, that i should have visited other churches before having gone to that one. what was attractive about that church is that there is a bus route. thats wonderful, but what about the bus workers? are they as wonderful as the bus route all the time? that i dont know.

What a great post April. Your story is very inspiring. I hope you do find peace and can enjoy church again. I found a wonderful church that is near my house. One of my best friends is a deacon there. She is very involved with this baptist church, but is very open and understands about my tendency to keep my distance with organized religion. Due to the religious abuse growing up, I don’t feel compelled to be too involved with the church, but they don’t mind. They are happy to see me to the extent that I feel comfortable.

The pastor is so kind and intelligent. He gives wonderful sermons that give me things to think about and examine in my life. He challenges you to seek God’s will and purpose for your life. I weep during most every service, because you can actually feel God’s presence in the service. The sermons are spiritual food and not used as a whip to beat you. I feel so good to attend and when I leave, I always thank God for giving me the opportunity to attend a real worship service. This is something that some of my family members have never had. (Not only are my parents still in the IFB church, but my younger brother, his wife and kids.) My brother doesn’t follow the dogma though. He takes away what he likes and leaves the rest.

The churhc I attend is an older church with mainly older members, (over 45), but there are a few members with kids. You can wear anything you want to church such as pants, t-shirts, jeans, etc. and nobody minds. They just welcome you and are so friendly thanking you for coming. My friend who is a deacon always serves alcohol at her holiday parties. They don’t try to rule your life, but only help you have a better relationship with God.

I hope you can find a place like that.

@Bryan
I know for a fact that the independent baptist movement is not one of compassion but of legalism.Ijust have to set the record straight having been in the movement for 26 years as well as being the son of a black independent baptist pastor and a soon to be pastor as well.I have been to white and black ifbc churches and they are still the same now as they were when the Lord himself told me to leave.The churches are dead spiritually,the pastors are quite judgemental,unfair.manipulative,controlling,selfish,ones who dont mind lording over the sheep as peter said not to,unclear of understanding the power of the Holy ghost,divided amongst each other ecspecially if your a black pastor there wont be preaching from a black man in the vast majority of white ifbc churches .There is so much deception in this movement that ifbc does not understand that the wheat grows with the tare,theology does not make a pastor right and it sure doesnt teach him how to pastor!I have watched people being torn to shreds spiritually in the pulpit (including my wife and I),and as i have seen many say dont say the pastor is wrong you are totally out of order forever! i have watched the mental abuse and the false love between white pastors towards black pastors and how blacks are made to believe that they are called to reach the black community as if Christ had not died for all and with that type of mindframe you will never see the ifbc apart of a spiritual awakening in the usa or anywhere else because thou hast a name that thou livest and are dead!The gospel is only shared with in the denomination itself as if thats wise to go preaching to the same six churches you affiliate with.what about methodist?what about holiness and pentecostal?what about presbyterian?what about cogic?what about non denominational churches? why have the so called complete truth and only share it with those who already have the same thoughts and truth you do?its like an oxymoron! but noone likes to hear this kind of stuff because it makes an ifbc preacher think am i really doing the commission or am i having a spirit like jonah?there is so much foolishness going on and God never called his people to be seperatist only cults operate like that seperation from works of darkness in context is talking of the sins in the verses before that statement was made!The body of Christ is suffering severely because of sects like ifbc,and yes i am baptist but im a holy ghost filled tongue talking christian first so i just want to say for those who want more of Jesus realize ifbc is not a movement because any movement in Christ will change communities as well as surroundings but the ifbc has failed to do so.so until we all come into the knowledge of the unity of the faith in Christ Jesus try uniting for Jesus and we’ll see less sites like this and more life changing word come through the body!so God bless if anyone wants to talk of more my email is nathanaelloveless@yahoo.com .God bless

@Deborah
Thank you Deborah! I am glad you have found a church that works for you & no pressure.

I will try to re-read some of your earlier posts.

Did you post “your story” on this site?

Take Care & all of the best to you!
April

@anonymouss

@anonymous

hi i wrote the previous posts also but not everyone in the church is bad. if you dont like it just leave. the bible says to s”peak no evil of the ruler of your people”. ifbc are certianly not legalists. if they are its because they are trying to make people believe they are so that the church members can conform to their lifestyles. the people arent rotten, and some may be arrogant and may not follow all their rules, but its because the arrogant chose not to do so. n every church theres at least a group of people who dont accept every part of the “good church people behavior”

Anonymous,
I agree that not all IFB people are bad. I am sure that there are a number of good people in these churches that genuinely want to follow Christ. I also agree that they teach salvation correctly.
However, IFB churches tend to be extremely legalistic. They don’t add works for salvation, but they do add rules for daily living, and plenty of them. Legalism is depending on your ability to keep the rules to be right with God. The bible teaches living by faith. I want to do what pleases God because I have already been made right with God.
I would also point out to you that pastors are not ” rulers of the people”. If they would like to be first, they must become servant of all. God’s leaders are not to be dictators, but servants.

April :@DeborahThank you Deborah! I am glad you have found a church that works for you & no pressure.
I will try to re-read some of your earlier posts.
Did you post “your story” on this site?
Take Care & all of the best to you! April

Yes, April. I made my first post on this thread on Feb. 16 about my story. I also posted more about it on Feb. 18, 22,24 and 25.

I was so excited to find this site. I know there must be many more people who experienced what we have. Some kids are still going throw that abuse. It breaks my heart, but there is really nothing you can do about it.

I agree with alot of what most everyone have talked about, although I believe that some of what is being called obusave seems to me as just being seperated from the world, such tings as listing to worldly music, and destroying ungodly CS’s or movies. These are things which a person who wants to grow closer to God would not mind doing. I think we need to be carful not to be quick to judge, be absalutly sure that any thing you are asked to do can be biblicaly backed up. I my self have been an Indipendent Baptist for over 30 years. While I agree with most of the standards set forth by our pastor, I would not go along if I thought fo one second they were not biblicaly based. We have standards such as people dressing appropetly, attending worldly movies, allowing ungodly music or material in our homes, but all these are not forced on us rather it is a choise we as individuals make ourselves and we would never ever impose any standards on a new visitor or believer. God uses the preaching of the word to teach and train new and old christians alike.

Don P. I appreciate your comments, but based on your words, it doesn’t sound as if you were brought up in an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. Those of us who were have an entirely different take on the matter. When you say teachings were not forced on you, I chuckle. Everything I saw in the church was forced. It wasn’t done with a handgun, but with mind control and firey sermons that caused fear.

I don’t think people usually realize they have been brainwashed or unduly influenced. They may realize it down the road, but usually don’t have the open mind to see it when they are under the influence.

I fully support the right for everyone to worship as they choose, but I do take offense when the rights of children are trampled upon or when people get sucked in by false prophets. I saw plenty of both while growing up in one of the IFB churces.

I’m curious Don P. What brought you to this board?

Don P stated:

We have standards such as people dressing appropetly, attending worldly movies, allowing ungodly music or material in our homes, but all these are not forced on us rather it is a choise we as individuals make ourselves and we would never ever impose any standards on a new visitor or believer. God uses the preaching of the word to teach and train new and old christians alike.

I find this interesting. My old IFB pastor used to preach a message that stated that the two legs on which the church stood were standards and soul winning. It all sounded good but I could never find any scriptural reference that backed this. Standard are about ethics. They always have been and always will be about ethics. No one ever came to Christ through standards. They came because He invited them into a relationship so they could know His Father. No one ever grows in the Christian life through standards. They grow through a continued relationship with the Son of God. Life in Christ is not about ethics but relationship. When we fall into the illusion that there is something I must do or can do, then we erect standards believing this will win us favor with God. Or there’s a certain way He wants us to live so be must do this or not do that. The more we lean into the standards lie the further we distance ourselves from what God desires. The Jews had 613 do’s and don’ts in the law and it was these “standards” that blinded them to who Jesus was.

How much would Jesus be criticized by our standards today. How he dressed, where he went, who he spent time with. If our desire is a close relationship with the Father, standards really don’t come into the mix.
“God uses the preaching of the word to teach and train new and old Christians alike?” Really. Or do we use the preaching of the word to conform others to what we want? Then we go out with the “Good News” to threaten unbelievers with Hell so we can conform them to His standards.

I got into the IBF movement because I wanted to do something great for God. I got out because I wanted to join Him in the great work He was already doing. And, Oh my, it looks so much different from what I thought it was when I was in the IFB churches. Totally enjoying the relationship w/Him!! Letting Him lead and enjoying the journey.

I John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Or – teaching for doctines the commandments of men.

Hi people!

I saw someone mentioned CBC (Cornerstone Baptist Church) in Colorado Springs… there is a large and growing membership there and it’s a really accepting church. I had a really positive experience attending there when I lived in Colorado Springs and miss the Pastor’s biblical teachings and the fellowship, and the music. There were a lot of families and the children were all respectful, and the people there were loving and really great to be around. As far as dress and clothes are concerned… I don’t think there is anything wrong with wanting to cover up more than you show off –as far as your body is concerned– because there is too much nudity around today as it is. We need standards. I’ve seen a lot of WRONG attitudes from people dressed with “modern” clothes, too. We are all human. All churches have some undesirable things going on because they have humans in them. I must also add, I have had pretty rotton experiences in other denomination churches-non-denominational, Catholic, charismatic, evangelical, etc… I think it is not good to lump all baptist churches because at CBC I had a great experience. It’s great to have a place to converse about this. Thanks for reading!

I’m new to the site, so forgive me for asking a stupid question. Is the IFB you refer to a fellowship of churches or exactly what does it refer to? I am a true independent Baptist. Yet, like you, I don’t agree with some of the bad practices you mention.

@Terry Carter

IFB – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Fundamental_Baptist

Deborah, Just read your posts….WOW! Been there, done that!

I don’t have a lot of time right now, but some things that crossed my mind as I read your comments…
~other preachers were always looked down on & accused by pastor of doing sermons to “tickle peoples ears” (they weren’t serious enough, just wanting folks to feel good. Gee…what a sin to give folks some hope!!!???? I would leave the sermons feeling beat up & abused half the time)

~I can’t tell you how many “professions of faith” I heard that included the KJV as being the “true word of god”….since when is faith professed in a book have anything to do w/ believing in Jesus & God????…but, with MANY of the IFB/Primitive Baptist sects, the KJV issue is now an issue that has caused a hell of a lot of division within Christendom

~There is NO amicable way to leave the (cough cough) “church”.
“church” meaning their little cultic group/sect. Nobody, but nobody leaves on good terms. Anyone who leaves is usually “church disciplined” & “excommunicated”, slandered from the bully pulpit, shunned… the verse used is usually the one in Hebrews “forsaking the assembly”

Well, enough for now….I’m just so so happy to be out of Fundymentalism!!! I will never trust a pastor, ever, ever again….I will never walk in a building where there is a preacher who has absolutely NO EARTHLY ACCOUNTABILITY. Anyone like that has become a law unto themselves…..they’ve set up their own little fiefdom.

God sees it for what it is. & folks NEED to speak out. Those who tell others to not speak of the abuse are HIDING ABUSERS. The truth needs to come out into the light. The truth isn’t a fraid of the light, but those who feel the need to “hide” the deeds & doctrines of their little cultic group & leader show themselves for exactly what they are.

April, It sounds like you experienced many of the things I did. How people stay in it, is beyond me. I will never forget when I first attended a church that I felt good when I left. I felt spiritually fed, not abused. I regret that most of my family dosen’t even know what that is like. They have been in it so long, they think the insults and putdowns are what they need! We once had an evangelist preach to our IFB Christian school, that every morning when you get up, you should look yourself in the mirror and say “Drop dead, you are a totally worthless person.” I’m not kidding. He was trying to promote humility I guess. He went on and on about how horrible we were as humans. We already had very timid, religiously abused kids in the school. I feared they might hurt themselves. He was such a jerk. He was very mean to his wife. He should have not been allowed anywhere near children, but he was God’s man so his word was gold. LOL

What I hate the most is that my parents pride themselves on their long time devotion to their church. They deeply believe that it has made them better people. I’m sure it would hurt them to know that they are worse people for getting taken over by the IFB. The best parts of them left long ago. They have mellowed some now that they are older and they have some positive traits, but most of them you have to sift for because they are saturated with mean spiritness, narrow mindness and superioty.

I don’t know of any friend or family member who would ever discuss religion with them because they use it like a weapon against you. It has alienated many people, but my parents think it’s the other person’s fault and that it’s other people who are just not right with God.

I’m torn as to whether I should ever tell them how I feel about it. They are now in their late 60′s and early 70′s. I’m not sure what would be gained. I guess I feel like an abused child. Would it be right to pretend they didn’t abuse me if they had beat me with a weapon? Religious abuse is different, but it’s still bad. Should I just keep my opinion to myself or tell them how I feel?

They know I refuse to attend their church, even for special occassions such as homecoming, family day, etc. Sometimes I just want to say, “I don’t like your church. I never liked your church. It’s a very dangerous place to go. It robbed me of good chldhood and of the good parents I had before you got brainwashed. I lost my real parents when you got sucked up into the IFB dogma. Your insistance and devotion to the teachings of the IFB shows your ignorance. I wish you would break free of the IFB so you could actally enjoy a loving relationship with God before you die.” How’s that? Too mean? I might could soften it a little.

Any thoughts?

((Deborah))

I recall leaving after a sunday beat-up sermon & feeling low. I mentioned to another member that I didn’t need to be beaten up every Sunday. She glared at me & yelled “we NEED to be whipped!” That’s the mentality. Also, I think it’s easier to CONTROL people if they are constantly being beaten down & made to feel unsure of themselves. Hurtful comments, as you wrote, “worthless person” or what we were often told as Jehan Calvin popularized “Totally Depraved” “desperately wicked heart”…wouldn’t it be easier to control a group of folks who had pretty much ALL of their self worth & esteem ripped from them?

I think these abusive controllers know that & that’s why they use the tactics they use. Just a hunch I have anyhow….

As far as your parents…that’s a rough one there. If it were me, sheesh, I don’t know what I’d do. But…here are some things that crossed my mind thinking about you & your parents.

I think if there is a way to let them know what you experienced & how you believe the IFB changed them negatively…, I feel they should know this. What do you think?

At the same time, what would that information do to your relationship with them?? That I think is important. Also, if you tried to address these issues in a loving & not a harsh way…at least you would know you tried to be compassionate, but at the same time speak your truth.

Maybe there is a way you could put it that wouldn’t be too harsh, of what you wrote I really liked “I don’t like your church. I never liked your church. It’s a very dangerous place to go.(maybe you could use the word “hurtful” which is not as judgmental as “dangerous”…though that is the truth isnt it?) “It robbed me of good childhood and of the good parents I had before you got brainwashed. I lost my real parents when you got sucked up into the IFB dogma.”
“I wish you would break free of the IFB so you could actally enjoy a loving relationship with God before you die.”

Maybe you could bring to their minds pleasant memories of your childhood BEFORE they joined the cult. Try to get them possibly to recall the fun & pleasant times, love of life & the feeling of God’s unconditional love they might have felt before joining abusive religion. You won’t know how they will react, maybe w/ fondness or maybe w/ the standard IFB dogma.?????

Again, these are just ideas floating around in my head.

Do you have something inside of you that really wants to tell them how their belief system, namely the IFB hurt & damaged you? Hurt & damaged your relationship w/ them & their lives in this world?? I think if this really eats away at you & bothers you, then perhaps it might be something that you need to do. Everyone is different so you will know whether your parents might need to hear some of the ugliness of the truth, or to soften it a bit????

Well Deborah, these are just thoughts of mine, ultimately you should do what YOU feel is best in your situation because all of us are very different. What might work for me, might NOT work for you in your situation. So I do hope that you will do what you feel is the best.

All the best to you with this situation. (((HUG)))

I’d give you my email, but I don’t want to put it up here & make it public. You seem like a beautiful person & I wish you only
the best! With HOPE, April

Deborah,
I think I understand why you feel the way you do about your parents church. I wouldn’t attend the churches special services either. Going to their church for any reason only validates their system. It would only give them hope that one day you will ” see the light” and come to their church.
I am somewhat familiar with their tactics. Especially pastors and graduates from Hyles- anderson college, should be given special scrutiny. My wife attends a church pastored by a Hyles proto-type. You wouldn’t believe the manipulation they use to try to get me to go to their church. Actually, you probably would believe it. My wife has actually left me, teaches Sunday school, and the church doesn’t have a problem with that. The pastor says that I must go back to church there, submit to him, and then he can work on trying to restore our marriage.
These are the the kind of people I have been dealing with. I am sure you know them as well. It is as if they see things completely upside down. There is no reasoning with them. Whenever you try to use Scripture, they get mad and walk away. The truth however, is the only thing that is going to do any good. The truth in love of course, and God working in their hearts to see a true picture of Christ.
I read a verse the other day, you might find it interesting ( Rom. 16:17-18). It is certainly an odd situation to be in where the people you love the most, and the people who should love you the most, well, it’s like they hate you. The whole situation baffles me.

bob :
…. The pastor says that I must go back to church there, submit to him, and then he can work on trying to restore our marriage.
These are the the kind of people I have been dealing with….. Whenever you try to use Scripture, they get mad and walk away.

Bob,

I just had to comment on some of what you wrote, which I have quoted above. The first one, seems like the pastor is on some power trip, big time! And it’s ironic how they can scream scriptures from the bully pulpit to back up their opinion, but when you find scriptures that are contrary to their interpretations & manipulations they just can’t take it. As if they are the only ones who can a read a bible!

These guys are full of themselves & their egos. too bad so many folks continue to stay & put up with the BS. When people stay in it, it gives the abusers support & validation, thus keeping the machine alive & well & further damaging people’s lives. ***SIGH****

Thanks for letting me vent about that. All the best to you.

It is a real shame that people get caught up in this sort of thing. I believe that there are some good well-meaning people in these types of churches. There are some people who just don’t know any better and are misguided to some degree.
There is no excuses though, for the pastors and leaders who lord power and control over God’s flock. These are the ones who will face greater judgement because they know God’s word. These are the ones who should be caring for and protecting God’s flock.
In reality, I feel sorry for pastors who abuse their position. If they they knew how awesome, and powerful, and holy God is, I think they would be trembling to think about their responsibility to God. I would never want to be in their shoes.
People may appear to be getting away with their sin, and for a time it may seem to be forgotten. However, we are all going to stand before Christ and give an account. Remembering this is good for me as well.

@JLR I would like to talk to a pastor who is not part of my IFB church. I was not saved until age 22 and came to a baptist bible college with my H an boys age 4 and 6. I am now 60 and the journey has been blessed and sexualy abusive. I t started with me when a drama teacjer became flirty, he later ledt the college with his group of female admirers and wife with 4 kids. I saw thr wolf even at my young age of 22,however I became depressed and confussed by this. I was hospitalized and the IFB pastor Mr President did not want the diagnosis written down since my H taught at the IFB grade school, I rexieved not treatment as it would not look good. I also did not name the Flirty Offender. That ended in a divource after W discovered the rel H was having with the women that followed.
I should have learn from that but apparenty did not since when my son became 15 we were called in by th principal of the IFB achademy to tell us his 25 yr older teacher was caught in a motel room by her H with my son. Well needless to say my H was promptly fired by Mr President and we were sent away as bad parents as was the Bad teacher sent on her way. Our family did not survive this well and I eventualy divourced my H due to feeling he should have stood up to the IBF for the sexual abuse. ( That son is currently in treatment for addictions and extreem anger at the church, Even refuses to use NA since they talk about God.
I went on to do my masters at a st university and am a psychotherapist in private practice today. If that were only the end of it. About 4 yrs ago my other son who had become alcohalic a depress disclosed in a histarical breakdown how he had been sexualy abused at the IFB grade school during a spanking for not doing his homework. He described the offens in detail while weeping uncontrollably saying I could not tell you Mom because I was how you suffered with my brothers abuse. I remember the day he came home at age 10 not being able to sit down in the car, and when I asked him what was wrong he said I got spanked and my butt is bleeding. I looked at the stripes on his upper bottom and there were small beads of blood. That was not the blood he was talking about as I know now.
I went to the church and the perpetrator but ofcourse the Perp did nothing and the new Mr Prisident does not believe my son because of his alcoholism and the Old Mr President remembers that I had been depresed once. I am still attending as is the perp but am being told FORGIVE and more FORGIVE but the perp is not held responsible and praised from the alter for his wonderful career, keeping the state out of the affairs of the church.
I am so sad. Both boys are working in therapy today but it will never be OK. I love God I am forgiving of the perps but why does the church hide the Wolf amoung the inocent sheep,
Need Good Spiritual Guidance.
Nan

Dear Nan,
Why don’t you name the abusers, that way they will not be able hide among the sheep and cause more damage.

@bob
The abusers have been named to the Pastors and school abministrators, The school informed us of the 1st sons abuse and sent everybody on there way by taking the job. The pastor in my seconds sons abuse knowns the name and feels no need to report it since HE does’t believe it, so based on his non belief nothing is done. I am the M. My son is unable to even say the name outloud due to overwhelming anxiety although he has talked with the pastor, and is not believed. That traumatizes us again.
It is my hope he will get strong enough to move ahead in some way from his fear. Therapist may use EMD to bring fear down.
It was my hope by bringing it to the attention of The President that they would do something other than NOT BELIEVE, so we are stuck in the situation waiting to be believed. Thanks for you interst. Pray for the Pastor to see the way I guess?
Nan

Dear Nan,
Why would you stay in a church where the leadership doesn’t believe you? Trust in a church environment is basic to its function. How can two walk together unless they agree? Your attendance at this particular church says to the leadership that you agree with their judgement and support their decisions.
This must be extremely confusing for your children. It must cause them a lot of anxiety to see the person who loves them the most, supporting the people who are responsible or covering the harm done to them.

Am not saying I am all knowing, but in my expetriance for 20 yrs now(funally leaving) I tend to see quite a bit is more about using the flesh to clean from sin(a house divided will not stand). Not sure what everyone thinks, basically 14 years ago I adopted Calvinism and really would see years later to make this connection. Right at the same time this happened-I was going to Bible College-OCBBC and all of a sudden-this one thought has come to mind-they say they are saved by grace and act like they are saved by works. Ultimately the conclusion for me was the sin nature is not the propensity to do evil bt to depart from God and self reliance of self redemption in self righteousness by the knowledge of good and evil as this opened Adam’s eyes and now he determined righteousness-not God. There is quite a bit going into this-this is the most boiled down I can make it that we use the sin nature-knowledge of good and evil to sanctify ourselves from sin which by the way-no where in scriptures does it teach we sanctify oursleves but only sanctify the Lord God and his word in our heart when it is God who sanctifies(do we really think we can now overcome sin when it is so obvious quite a few Christians sin?) This is where I give the words of Christ-A house divided against itself will not stand as Christ taught in Matt 16-deny yourself and pick up your Cross and follow me(Christ). These were not the easiest thinhgs to learn by a long shot-but I learned them.

For me, I just hope many will see and understand and for many years God was merciful to me-to extend the same mercy to others which is not exactly the easiest thing to do. Besides this-mercy should not compromise faith.

God bless
Dave Emme

@bob
I agree trust is iportant, It is hard to separate from the authority of the pastor dogma, but I am feeling the hoplessness of continuing to try and worship there. How ever if we all leave when there is abuse where is the refermation ever going to start. My boys do not understand and maybe I need deprograming from the idea they are the TRUE church, I graduated from a IFB college for undergrade and the idea of them having the truth and others do not has been drilled into my head, Gus me thinking I could get the Pastor to see and believe the harm that has been done is unrealistic, I pray that God would open the eyes of Mr President. I am not a member, Was taken off the membership when my marriage broke up and I got divourced. I could never join it again, Does God want me to point the light at the abuse since it is embedded in my families suffering over these 30 some yrs? Perhaps the cost is too high to continue to attend. Who’s voice will be heard? God doesn’t want this kind of suffering in His churches, I feel burdened for my family and others to atleast try to shed a light.
Nan

Dear Nan,
Knowing when to stay to effect change, or leave is a difficult decision. I don’t know what else you can do to address the situation. The reality is, the leadership may never accept the truth. When things have been covered for a long period of time, repentance is rare.
Sin effects the entire church. How can God bless a particular church and their ministries when sin is covered?
You may want to look at attending a Bible church or another good church in your area. We all need to be around other people who genuinely love and support us.

My experience is that my ex-pastor of an IFB church had conviction of the Holy Spirit confused….as a result those of us who sat and listened to the condemnation did as well. If you are feeling singled out fearful and extremely ashamed, then you are being manipulated and caused to feel less than worthy to live! That is man! When the Holy Spirit points out things in our lives, it is gentle, there is peace and hope- knowing something can be done about it- you don’t feel like the worst failure on the planet! THAT is conviction! I NEVER experienced conviction at that church- just major anxiety, fear and shame. Alone at home, in my private time with the Lord, I began to see the difference! Our pastor enjoyed seeing people afraid to see him in public if they weren’t dressed “properly”, etc….I doubt that is how Jesus operates- in fact, that is NOT how he operated in the New Testament. Just some thoughts.

I appreciate your being here for us. I’d be back later for I’d like to share more but have to hurry off for the husband is returning from his church which has demolished our marriage completely. Thankyou for it helps to read these very very similar things by others. I’d like to encourage others that God has seen me through and He is not like what they believed if they’d never got a picture of Him outside the Independent Baptist churches.

I haven’t read every comment yet, (but I certainly intend to for it has been wonderfully helpful to read what you’ve shared here. I must smile as I tell you one that really sounded like “I wrote it” (although I’m sorry that I can’t quote it exactly–I’m looking back for it). BUT, it was similar to ‘you realize something is really wrong when you want to RUN out of a church service!” I’ve known the Lord for about 50 years, (even if I went off doing my own thing and ignored Him during my college and eary marriage years)–and I’d NEVER experienced anything like these things. (my experience that you all are describing so perfectly).
I’ve found some more balanced IFB folks over the internet as I’ve searched for help since my marriage was literally destroyed by these people. (It’s my 2nd one for first husband died, thankfully he’d never set foot in a IFB church I’m thinking now–for he did give his life to the Lord in a Southern Baptist church.) BUT that seems to be the hook–so many ‘churches’ are getting liberal that these IFB ones SOUND so very good–(but one just doesn’t realize when you get more into them that you’re fixing to get beat up if you ask a question about their beliefs or just want to discuss Scripture if you’re a woman and you are quickly brought to know that ‘EVE WAS DISCEIVED so you probably are too, being a woman”etc etc…and then judged and condemned for asking…it was so amazing that they could destroy what was a great marriage (My husband just bought it all hook, line and sinker–liked the ‘being in control’ of your wife idea)–and they can destroy and judge your heart ‘in the name of Jesus’–SO that is why I appreciate this site. FOR it is so very very wrong to misrepresent our Lord and be haughty while you share the Gospel. They have had a double standard and do ‘respect persons’…As you’ve said above: it’ ok for the preacher to sin.
Worse: a woman needs a ‘priest’ to tell her which Scriptures apply to her, as she reads–or if they only pertain to men…
THAT’s just terribly wrong…and could destroy a woman in so many ways…
So I hung back from joining and my husband said I was “in rebellion against God!!!!” BALONEY! I just miss my husband –he became a clone of his preacher that he exalted way way too highly…and the guy let him. So we all know the Lord isn’t any too pleased sharing His glory wit these guys, is He?

I can see you do understand and was trying not to make my comments too long. However, I do need to thank the Lord for His deliverance. I used to cry and cry myself to sleep for years, and my husband thought that was good for me and would misquote the scripture about “godly grief bringing repentance”–but he didn’t want my ‘input’ for I told him this kind of grief wasn’t ‘godly’ but wrongly inflicted by people (and I’d never seen “christian” people be so cold and with absolutely NO compassion/NO mercy, ever in my life.) It took many years of crying out to God (for these folks can really just about convince you that you are ‘slime’ (but, while they’re wrongly judging you. They have totally wrecked the esteem and trust, with which my husband had held me for at least 9 years, before getting with them. It’s like they’ve really washed out his brains and helped him sear his conscience. (This must be ‘demonic’). Certainly it could be demonic for SO SADLY they are looking like the type that Hollywood does movies about. That’s most horrible. I had thought Hollywood was just overtly lying to the public but when more and more of us are coming across real people like that in churches like many IBFs, these preachers and their supporters are being the ‘devils’ advocates’. You know how the devil does–mixing in error with some truth. (which subverts the whole thing–well it is leaven, and leaven of the Pharisees at that, as has been said above.) So this isn’t a place to air bad things but MORE it’s a place to help those who’ve been beaten up in Jesus’ name. The Lord gave me so many beautiful Scriptures over the years of watching my husband get worse here with these people–I hung on to them–even by my teeth for a long time–also hearing the misused ones by the ‘preachers and their spouses’ ringing in my ears…(the ones they quote but don’t live by)-and eventually God’s Spirit drowned out their perversions and hung on to me…it grew over these six years)…THEN he let me see a wonderful teaching by Miles J.Stanford–The Green Letters. All the things He had been teaching me to save me from this pharisaical legalism, were repeated by this gentleman. It’s like the Lord wanted me to get it straight from Him first for He knew I’d have a BAD problem in trusting ‘just anyone’ after all this. SO I write to encourage those of you hurting out there-just keep your eyes on Him and He will heal your heart as He is healing mine. He reassured me I am sanctified the same way I was saved–by faith. That I died with Him and now my life is ALL Him now! I AM a new creation! and these mixed up IFBs just need to read and take to heart the WHOLE New Testament and put up their ‘readers digest condensed versions’. Even if I don’t have a ‘husband’ anymore…I have a Husband always and soon He will wipe all tears away from my eyes and yours. He said to jump for joy when we’re cast away and reviled…and finally He reassured me that these people who can scratch sinful ears of men who want to be ‘over-lords’ and not leaders–well God assured me He DOES receive, love, and accept me! Things I thought I ‘knew’ but I have gotten what turned out to be a wonderful ‘refresher’ course–in the fiery furnace. SO I praise Him for it now. The giant boulder (the Pharisee type tries to put on one)–has been pushed away by the One Who sets and keeps us free.

@April

Dear April,
You have so pricisely ‘nailed it’ as you’ve shared what you’ve been through. (You put it SO well, thanks! AFter what I’ve been through, my heart “was and is quickly ‘with you’ “–for what that’s worth. But it is worth a lot to me, to read your thoughts and I am grateful for them.
It was hard to believe this wasn’t the “Twilight Zone” or something –I was hoping to WAKE UP for the last six years, but the nightmare just kept growing. I cannot believe these people who preach the Bible AT you but who can’t apply anything to themselves. Perhaps their consciences are seared from judging others in the ways James said NOT to–for they have put themselves in the place of God. WELL the devil wanted that place too so how are they different?
It’s been un-real …these people SAY they are God honoring and fearing blah blah blah…but disregard the commandment Jesus gave us directly to “Love one another -and others will know we’re His followers” with ‘love’ like they’ve shown folks–all it leaves is for one to find some itty bit of kindness or compassion perhaps in a ‘bar’ or one can pay a mess of money for a shrink I guess.
However neither will be necesssary for me. Despite what they think–(and what they think just doesn’t matter)–the Lord lives in me and loves me and is healing me (and you and the others) from their abuse. and now I can read His Word and grow, heal, and love hearing His voice and not their voices of perversion and subversion. Thanks for sharing for it has helped me, much, too.

@bob
Bob, I just wanted to thank you for your comments here. God has used them to help me. I knew you’d been through it but I also knew it was God’s Spirit directing your comments. (and THAT IS NOT something I could say in an IBF church, right? :O)
I have ‘lost’ my husband to an IBF church and spin off. I appealed and appealed with Scripture and as kindly as I could but got to the Proverbs verse in my thinking too–(That a fool’s mouth invites a beating” and I was about willing to help out with that in recent years, sad to say, even if I’m making a joke here, (and you KNOW “they” have absolutely NO humor…and I know the Lord does)…so,anyway I got to see the real need for cleansing the Lord wanted me to maybe –haha and not what they were saying about me- I can’t believe the ‘condemnation and threats’ these people will so glady heap upon you–and they knew me only ‘weeks’ and just barely…whew! I’ll keep you and your wife in my prayers. (Sure appreciate yours for me and my husband who feels he is getting ‘martyr points’ or something for sticking with me. It’s painfully obvious every day…so sick. BUt He is coming back soon for us and I really want to share Him but am stuck by myself–family alienated…but God DOES give me the grace ‘they’ give lip-service to…he receives and accepts me and you totally…for you and I know that ‘we are IN His Son’…I found the “Green Letters” finally which confirmed things the Holy Spirit had been showing me over these last terrible six years…It was a good thing to know He was teaching me–those poor folks at my husband’s ‘church’ donn’t think God can teac a woman…and has given her an over-lord to control her. Isn’t that just demonic bondage! but there I go again.
blessings and prayers to you.

Carrie,
It is good to see that you have been able to stand firm in freedom. I can just imagine the things you have seen and experienced. I wish there was some way to open peoples eyes. I know that God hears my prayers for my wife, it just may be a matter of time. I know God is good and His way is best.
I certainly will pray for you and your husband.
I am wondering what the green letters are. Also, what is the background of your husband’s pastor?

Thanks for the encouragement for it’s been a ‘long haul’. I explained better in some letters that weren’t shown here. The preacher does ‘talk a good talk’, but my husband cannot see the seriousness of falsely accusing me for just asking questions (when we were just visting even).
So since our marriage was in need of healing already, the devil used this guy to ‘finish us off’. It took so many years for me to be convinced that Yes! the Lord wanted me to remain in the freedom for which He had died to set and keep me free and that a woman wasn’t a lesser being in His eyes than a man. (I used to teach ladies ‘submission’ many years ago and it wasn’t ‘the kind’ rammed down womens’throats in this place.

and the Green Letters is a compilation of teachings by a Miles J. Stanford who taught well about the true grace of God (not like these folks’ “grace Plus works” way of thinking. (I immediately was suspicious of the name…being around IBFs –but all it implied was “How” we grow…He does it! As you could see–by my ‘joke’ about proverbs–meaning the temptation arises when people misrepresent the Lord first, and attack your character and reputation…I can see MY need to abide in Him for His life to make me grow. These people without realizing it think they should work ‘with His help’ to serve Him so I’m sure their motives were right way back ‘once uponn a time’–BUT one cannot fulfill the right motives with the WRONG methods, the Lord showed me over these last six fiery years. It was good for me to go through this in that it made me seek Him more, read more of the Word and pray more –although at first one ‘hears in her mind’ those Scriptures ‘they’ used to attack her with…but then the HolySpirit gives more and more others to me and others so abused, to counter their misuse of Scripture…HOW DO they ignore chapters of ‘other’ verses to justify what they do to people?!
Well you asked about his background…it’s always been in an IBF church but the older guy I wonder about-and didn’t learn…you sort of have to ‘approach his throne’ carefully to see if he will speak with you after church and then they do not spend time with others beside their immmediate ‘blood’ kin…nor do they come to the aid of the others…
rarely anyway…I don’t understand that at all either. What about “BLood-kin?” instead of ‘blood-kin’? My husband sort of forced me to join the first one and then the spin off one began in our town east of there after about a year and a half. I was hoping they might be different, but at that time i still didn’t know much about IBF thinking. It gets into them at a young age, doesn’t it? So this young man was just the same identically. (and I’ve been accused of disagreeing with him ‘just because’ he was young. NO! that wasn’t it at all…but for it did turn out clearly after these years that it IS a ‘pride’ problem…for one doesn’t dare disagree or have a different idea from him or he gets very angry and attacks your reputation or character…
IF that’s NOT perverted what is? These guys, (I saw clearly more later)- are setting themselves up so highly ‘to be as god’ and judge others’ hearts motives and intents…like James says NOT to do!
It was unreal to me for I’ve been a Christian for 50 years, even if I’d gotten into the world right after high school for a time–but the Lord brought me back to Him! Isn’t He a wonderful Savior? He does keep working on us and if we think He needs our ‘help’ we are very deceived, aren’t we? We cannot do a thing…but abide in Him and THEN by believing that promise (of being sanctified by faith as well as being saved by faith–He does do the work in and on us! The Green Letters confirmed what the Spirit had shown me as I cried and cried out to Him, seeing my marriage be blown “In Jesus Name”

Wow, that is a crazy story, and one that is very similar to my own. I am sure pastors in these types of churches find it easier to write of women. However, they did the same thing to me without any consideration for my leadership responsibility. I made the ” mistake ” of questioning the pastor and submitting to Scripture rather than the pastor. The bottom line is, it doesn’t matter who you are, when you bump into their sensitive pride, you are going to experience their wrath. Like I said before, what we are going through today, is nothing compared to what false shepherds will experience in the judgement.

So true! There is something really wrong with a so-called preacher who is told by God to be an example/leader, if he cannot even love you enough to ‘bear your burdens’ by caring enough to communicate with you about your concerns or just plain enthusiasm about Scripture and questions pertaining to both. There are just so many dozens of Scriptures that they don’t seem to want to address or go by. So I thought Steve’s illustration of the ‘poop in the brownies’ couldn’t have been better said. It’s just the reverse of what his friend said about ‘not throwing out the baby with the bath water’-(and Steve answered that perfectly–for leaving the poop in mixed with ‘perfectly good things’ does cause many to throw out the ‘baby’ (the Bible, the Gospel, and sadly even turn away from the Lord). If Paul said he was incensed about peoples’ faith being hurt, can one imagine just what the Lord feels about such? Well, He has clearly stated what He thinks about such things-all through the Bible. But the poor people who start choking on the poop and backing away are believing the preacher, his wife, and the others are really representing the Lord; I’ve seen it, too. And I’ve appealed and appealed to them for us to work these things out now like Luke said-to go to them (I agreed I don’t want to go to them without someone else in the room-I have MY reputation to look out for just like they