Independent Fundamental Baptist

If you’ve been around the IFB long enough, you’ll quickly realize that the phrase “you’re just bitter” or anyone of it’s variations is typically the IFBer’s first line of defense against logic and reason.

I’ve noticed this more and more over the years that I’ve been away from the IFB and I’m not sure if it’s just because I’m more engaged in debate and discussions about the issues or if it is being preached more in the IFB culture. It was certainly taught in the churches I was in growing up. If you have any type of emotion other than happy you were at risk of being labeled as bitter.

It seems that “your just bitter” (citing Hebrews 12:15) has become the manipulation of choice for the IFBer who doesn’t’ like what a person has to say especially if it’s a commentary against the IFB or against it’s dogma. According to the IFB, all those who would oppose the IFB are deemed bitter and not worth their time. Just read through the comments by those who visit and try to oppose the messages of this site and it won’t take you long to read the “your bitter” argument.

This is what philosophers call an ad hominem fallacy. It’s an argument directed at a person or a personal attack rather than a logical response to the idea itself. Instead of asking if I’m bitter, most will assume and judge in classic IFB style and end of story. Nothing more is said. I’m cast aside and my ideas and beliefs hand waved. Noses are turned up in snobbish holier-than-though attitude with no desire to continue the discussion or to expose themselves to such heresy.

People mistake what I and others like me are doing as bitterness when it really isn’t. I would say we are more like the Bereans of Acts 17 who are studying the scriptures to see if what they are being taught is true. Unfortunately we have discovered that much of what’s taught in IFB circles isn’t true. Luckily, unlike the Bereans, we have a much larger platform with which to voice our disgust and disagreement.

I will not lie, I am angry about what the IFB is doing, but I’m not bitter. Anger is a normal response to such injustice and danger. Even Jesus got angry at the money changers in the temple of his day (See Matthew 21, John 2). Just the same, I’m angry at the abuse and manipulation that happens in IFB churches around the world. I’m angry that people are being hurt and turned away from God and Christianity because of the teachings, beliefs and man made traditions of this cult like denomination. I’m angry, but I’m not bitter.

Even if I were bitter so what? Bitterness is a normal emotion and is not a sin. The IFB would like us to believe it is a sin. There’s even a website (http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/bitterness.php) that teaches that women who are raped and have trouble healing and getting closure from the trauma have trouble because they have bitterness. This is pure emotional abuse. The site goes on to also say that boys who have been abused by men and have trouble with healing and trouble with sexual identity (homosexual thoughts) are that way because of bitterness and an inability to forgive. I’m appalled at what I read on this site. How ridiculous and harmful – and unscriptural!!!

There is not one verse in the Bible that calls bitterness a sin. Ephesians warns that bitterness can lead to devastating consequences if left unchecked (see Ephesians 4), but nowhere in the Bible does it call bitterness a sin. In fact, we read in Isaiah 38 that Hezekiah was thankful for his bitterness because it helped him recognize the good that came from his painful experience.

Bitterness can actually be a good thing if we let it motivate us to do things differently. Just like this site, I use the bitterness I once had to motivate me to study the scriptures and use logic and reason to deduce the errors of the IFB. Now, no longer bitter, I can thank God for the good that came of my situation. I am now truly saved and have a much closer relationship with God because it is founded on truth and not the teachings of the IFB.

Finally, we must remember that bitterness and forgiveness are not necessarily opposites. It is not necessarily true that one hasn’t forgiven if one is bitter. And forgiveness doesn’t mean that the bitterness will automatically end. These are two separate issues and the Bible doesn’t say that if you forgive you will not have bitterness and vise versa. The IFB teaches this, but it’s not in the bible – at least I can’t find it anywhere in the Bible.

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Stella Harville and Ticha Chikuni in a November 2010 photo by Harville (AP)

Other pastoral leaders in the area were quick to denounce the church’s vote. “It’s not the spirit of the community in any way, shape or form,” Randy Johnson, president of the Pike County Ministerial Association, told the Lexington Herald-Leader.

The small congregation, which usually hosts about 40 members each Sunday, held the vote after longtime member Stella Harville, brought her fiancé Ticha Chikuni to church with her in June. The couple performed a song together at the church in which Chikuni sang “I Surrender All,” while Harville played the piano.

Chikuni, 29, who works at Georgetown College, is black–and Harville, who was baptized at the church but is not an active member, is white. Dean Harville, Stella’s father, said he was told by the church’s former pastor Melvin Thompson that his daughter and her fiancé were not allowed to sing at the church again. However, Thompson recently stepped down and the church’s new pastor, Stacy Stepp, said the couple was once again welcome to sing.

Stepp’s decision prompted Thompson to put forth a recommendation saying that while all members are welcome at the church, it does not “condone” interracial marriage, and that any interracial couples would not be received as members or allowed to participate in worship services. The only exception? Funerals.

The Harville family has formally requested the congregation to reconsider the interracial ban, and Thompson has also said he would like to resolve the issue, the area CBS affiliate WYMT has reported.
A copy of the recommendation, obtained by WYMT, reads in part:

That the Gulnare Freewill Baptist Church does not condone interracial marriage. Parties of such marriages will not be received as members, nor will they be used in worship services and other church functions, with the exception being funerals. All are welcome to our public worship services. This recommendation is not intended to judge the salvation of anyone, but is intended to promote greater unity among the church body and the community we serve.

Members of the church held a vote on Thompson’s proposed language, with nine voting in favor and six voting against. The other members in attendance chose not to vote.

Gawker notes that Pike County is 98 percent white and home to the infamous Hatfield-McCoy feud.
The Harville family doesn’t see Gulnare’s new policy promoting anything like unity or civil peace. “They’re the people who are supposed to comfort me in times like these,” Stella Harville said.
And Stella’s father was much more forceful in his denunciation of the interracial ban. “It sure ain’t Christian,” Dean Harville said. “It ain’t nothing but the old devil working.”

Story found at Yahoo News by: Eric Pfeiffer

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I sure would like to know how this church supports their prejudice using scripture.

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I often refer to the IFB as “cult like” or “cultish” and I receive great condemnation from IFBers as a result. This post is being written to set the record straight and to provide a little more detail about what I mean by “cult like” or “cultish”.

Let’s first look at the definition of “cult”. The Random House Dictionary defines a cult as: 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers 3. the object of such devotion 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. 6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. 7. the members of such a religion or sect. 8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

In case you didn’t notice, the definitions are pretty broad. The term “cult” can be a bit ambiguous and is often open to individual interpretation. As a result I will try to narrow down the definitions and streamline my focus. I would like to focus on definitions numbered 1, 2, 4 and 6.

We all know of the particular cults that have come and gone. One of the more famous cults was the Branch Davidian cult in Waco Texas lead by David Koresh. If you aren’t familiar with it I would encourage you to look them up. It’s pretty interesting. Basically, David Koresh lead a group of people to their deaths because of a false ideology and set of beliefs that was unorthodox, extremist AND with members living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader, (see definition 6).

The only reason I mention David Koresh in this context is to set apart what we typically think of as a cult. The Branch Davidians characterized ALL the stipulations of definition 6 above so this is an easy one to spot. Organizations like the IFB are not so easy to spot and often have subtle variations of definition 6 – the one we typically think of when we hear the word cult – or they are purposefully deceptive about their status in society in order to deceive people into joining their group (don’t get all defensive, I’m just using deception as an example of a subtle difference to distinguish what we think we know a cult to be and what a cult really is).

Yes, I know that the IFB doesn’t EXACTLY fit definition 6 so before you decide that you want to shoot me (or at least leave this webpage) read on because I’m going to tell you why I think that the IFB fits the definition of a cult.

In a way, ALL belief systems START out as a cult by the definition of 6 above. Just think about the way Jesus must have been portrayed in his society during the time of his ministry. Do you think unorthodox, unscientific, charismatic, extremist, etc. would be words the Pharisees and people of his day used to describe him? You bet they would. Today Christianity is one of the largest religions in the world, but I think that in its early stages people might have looked at Christians as members of a cult as defined by definition 6 above.

But as you can see, the definition of a cult is NOT limited to simply definition 6. Like I said, my focus will also be on definition numbers 1, 2 and 4. Let me repeat them in case you forgot. 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. Upon HONEST inspection can you really read those definitions as say the IFB isn’t a cult according to those definitions? If not you are either delusional, extremely self deceptive or so enmeshed with the IFB that you simply can’t see it.

Yes, I know that I’m partially playing a semantics game here, but that’s why I use the term “cult like” or “cultish” instead of calling the IFB a cult outright. In the BROADIST sense we could certainly see how the IFB ACTS like a cult, in some ways, when looking at definition 6. We often see IFBers promoting the idea that we are to be “separate” (living outside conventional society), “independent” – not belonging to an over seeing body of leadership and following the leadership of the local church pastor (under the direction of a charismatic leader). We can see that the IFB promotes misinterpretations of scripture as fact – as evidenced on this site and many others (religion or sect considered to be false). We see that the IFB promotes the idea of fundamentalism (extremist) in many ways such as women wearing skirts, not going to movies or dances, etc (unorthodox) (these are simply to provide examples and are not by any means all inclusive). However, in the TRUEST sense of the word the IFB doesn’t ESACTLY fit the definition of a cult and if definition 6 above were the ONLY definition we had then I think I would have a harder time convincing people that the IFB is cultish or cult like.

However, understanding that the IFB does indeed fit SOME of what definition 6 refers to and understanding that definition 6 is NOT THE ONLY DEFINITION that’s given for a cult we must logically conclude that not all cults can be boiled down to just ones that fit definition 6. We still have seven other definitions, four of which mention the terms “religion” and/or “sect”. This is too significant to ignore.

Now, again, I play word games here, but for good reason (there are times when arguments of semantics are relevant). Since we can’t, in good conscience, call the IFB a cult, according to definition 6 – again which is what most people think of when the term cult is mentioned and according to what we as a society have come to understand a cult to be – and the IFB does display some cult like or cultish characteristics, then we need to consider the other definitions of a cult and come to a logical conclusion about this matter.

So let’s just take each definition and see if the IFB fits the description. First, definition 1: 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. The IFB has distinct rites and ceremonies that set it apart from all other denominations. This is interesting because the IFB WANTS to be considered “set apart” yet they refuse to acknowledge the consequence of this line of thinking, which is the perception of cult like atmosphere. The IFB as a whole, has distinct features, traditions and beliefs that set it apart from other denominations (I know some of the IFBers reading this will object to the IFB being called a denomination, but that isn’t the focus of this article so please read the article on Independent Deception for more information about that topic). The simple fact that IFBers considers themselves as “Independent” and “Fundamental” (separated from all else in Christianity) lends credence to this definition.

Second, definition 2: 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers. Many will read this definition and conveniently ignore the “OR” in it. The veneration doesn’t necessarily have to be a person, although one could easily argue the IFB’s veneration of the local church’s pastor. The main reverence and focus of the IFB is their unique way of doing church which, according to them, is the right way and everyone else is wrong. The IFB way of doing church has become the idol around which life revolves. The IFB will deny this of course, but those of us who have come out of the IFB can understand why. The IFB has become so good at defending their way of doing church that people can no longer see past the deception. IFBers have come to venerate the ideals of the IFB which has lead to those outside of the IFB seeing them as a cult.

Finally, definition 4: 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. Again we see here that the IFB is a group or sect that has very strong bonds to a particular way of doing church. The IFB fits the definition of a cult by its regard for and reverence towards particular traditions, beliefs and teachings that are currently considered by most in Christianity to be unorthodox and extreme.

So it is with this in mind that we see the IFB could certainly fit the description of a cult, however, I have chosen to use the term “cultish” or “cult like” in order to show some respect to the system and the individuals that make up the IFB. When I use the terms “cultish” or “cult like” I’m referring to the characteristics of the IFB that make is closely resemble a cult.

Update:

After writing this article and getting a few comments and some rather nasty emails, I realized that a little more clarification would be needed to help avert misunderstandings. As I’ve said multiple times throughout this site, I’m not trying to paint all Independent Fundamental Baptists with the same brush nor am I making sweeping generalizations (by the way, comments that accuse me of sweeping generalizations will not be responded to by this author since I’ve clearly answered this accusation here and elsewhere on the site. Please read thoroughly before you make such an accusatory comment). It is up to the reader to determine if their church has such characteristics. I simply urge you to read with an open mind and consider the possibility.

Now, having said that, it’s important that you know that I realize that the term cult is somewhat ambiguous, but cults are often defined by how much CONTROL the group and/or group leader tries to have over it’s members.

According to the International Cultic Studies Association and cult expert Steve Hassan, areas of the cult member’s life such as thoughts, behaviors, emotions and information are controlled so that the member is kept in strict conformity. Based on this, I’ve devised a little summary of how the IFB acts in such ways to control the congregation.

Please consider the following aspects of a cult as I try to help you understand their fit among the IFB.

Control over Emotions:

In a cult, a normal range of emotions is discouraged and often not allowed. In my IFB experience, if you aren’t happy then there is something wrong in your relationship with God. If you are depressed, for example, then there is sin in your life.

Use of guilt tactics is another example of the IFB’s control over emotions. This is often seen by excessive use of what I call “sin language” (not SIGN language, but SIN language). According to the IFB, you are sinning if you don’t do church the way the IFB has determined that a Christian should. This is especially true when it comes to paying tithes. For example, “If you aren’t tithing then you are robbing God. How can a good Christian rob God?!?!?!” How many times have you heard that one? I heard it almost every week and sometimes three or four times a week when the pastor did a sermon series on tithing.

Another popular tactic of the IFB in this category is pressuring its members to perform soul winning activities. A high focus on bringing in new members is a classis cult emphasis and was very prevalent in the IFB.

Control over Thought:

Rigid, inflexible and all or nothing thinking (more commonly known as black and white thinking) where issues are either right or wrong and no room is given for a middle ground or grey areas is a sure sign of a cult. This is very strong among the IFB.

The IFB effectively discourages critical thinking, negative thoughts and thinking that originates independent of the group. The IFB encourages the use of ONLY positive thinking and speaking. Hassan shares that this is often done by infusing “thought-terminating clichés”…which “constrict rather than expand understanding”…and “function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous ‘buzz words’”.*

“Pray about it” is an example that sticks in my mind. When I would have a dilemma or life issue the advice was simply “pray about it”. This might not be the best example, but if simply praying about it was helpful I wouldn’t have been having trouble in the first place since I’d been praying about it for years.

We all know the typical Christian clichés that are used among the Christian community, but the IFB takes this to a cultish level, by restricting other forms of thought and communication.

Control over Information:

In a cult, attending another church or group is often discouraged. The message that only the IFB has the truth and if you attend another type of church you can’t get saved or you are further from God then if you attended an IFB is evidence of this characteristic.

The KJV only issue is a perfect example of this among the IFB. If one doesn’t understand the KJV then they are to rely on the Pastor or a “more mature” Christian in the IFB to interpret it for them.

Individual interpretation of scripture is discouraged. Questioning or disagreeing with what the IFB teaches is discouraged. One should accept what the pastor or Sunday school teacher says with unwavering, unquestioning acceptance is the prevailing message among the IFB.

In the IFB, pastors are trained by IFB educators and seminaries. Information is tightly controlled among the leader instruction. The church I grew up in had a “Baptist Bible Institute” which trained all the pastors and Sunday school teachers. One couldn’t serve unless he/she went through that unique training program. This is plain and simple mind control.

Another evident issue in this category is limited access to alternate information. Member access to non-IFB literature is discouraged and/or prevented.

The three mentioned above are often more subtle. The more obvious one is Control over Behaviors:

Control over what to do, where to go and who to associate with is common among cults and we see this among the IFB in the obvious “standards” that the IFB has set regarding dress, hair style, music, movies, food/beverage consumption and associated friends (among many others).

An example from my experience is vacation time. We were taught to never miss church even for vacation. I always remember my parents scheduling family vacations to end on Saturday so that we could be in church on Sunday. What confused me, though, was that the pastor always took a vacation that lasted through Sunday.

Being pressured to make sacrifices is another form of controlling behaviors. We see this among the IFB as well in the form of monetary and time commitments.

Well, I hope this information has been helpful. For more information on cults visit: www.icsahome.com and www.freedomofmind.com/bite/

* Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves

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I thought this was a rather interesting story. A Princeton Graduate student dies of complications during a suicide attempt. He wrote a 4,000 word suicide note in which he disclosed horrible abuse including spiritual abuse. I wanted to add it to my blog content. I will highlight the spiritual abuse component in bold for reader interest.

I have the urge to declare my sanity and justify my actions, but I assume I’ll never be able to convince anyone that this was the right decision. Maybe it’s true that anyone who does this is insane by definition, but I can at least explain my reasoning. I considered not writing any of this because of how personal it is, but I like tying up loose ends and don’t want people to wonder why I did this. Since I’ve never spoken to anyone about what happened to me, people would likely draw the wrong conclusions.

My first memories as a child are of being raped, repeatedly. This has affected every aspect of my life. This darkness, which is the only way I can describe it, has followed me like a fog, but at times intensified and overwhelmed me, usually triggered by a distinct situation. In kindergarten I couldn’t use the bathroom and would stand petrified whenever I needed to, which started a trend of awkward and unexplained social behavior. The damage that was done to my body still prevents me from using the bathroom normally, but now it’s less of a physical impediment than a daily reminder of what was done to me.

This darkness followed me as I grew up. I remember spending hours playing with legos, having my world consist of me and a box of cold, plastic blocks. Just waiting for everything to end. It’s the same thing I do now, but instead of legos it’s surfing the web or reading or listening to a baseball game. Most of my life has been spent feeling dead inside, waiting for my body to catch up.

At times growing up I would feel inconsolable rage, but I never connected this to what happened until puberty. I was able to keep the darkness at bay for a few hours at a time by doing things that required intense concentration, but it would always come back. Programming appealed to me for this reason. I was never particularly fond of computers or mathematically inclined, but the temporary peace it would provide was like a drug. But the darkness always returned and built up something like a tolerance, because programming has become less and less of a refuge.

The darkness is with me nearly every time I wake up. I feel like a grime is covering me. I feel like I’m trapped in a contimated body that no amount of washing will clean. Whenever I think about what happened I feel manic and itchy and can’t concentrate on anything else. It manifests itself in hours of eating or staying up for days at a time or sleeping for sixteen hours straight or week long programming binges or constantly going to the gym. I’m exhausted from feeling like this every hour of every day.

Three to four nights a week I have nightmares about what happened. It makes me avoid sleep and constantly tired, because sleeping with what feels like hours of nightmares is not restful. I wake up sweaty and furious. I’m reminded every morning of what was done to me and the control it has over my life.

I’ve never been able to stop thinking about what happened to me and this hampered my social interactions. I would be angry and lost in thought and then be interrupted by someone saying “Hi” or making small talk, unable to understand why I seemed cold and distant. I walked around, viewing the outside world from a distant portal behind my eyes, unable to perform normal human niceties. I wondered what it would be like to take to other people without what happened constantly on my mind, and I wondered if other people had similar experiences that they were better able to mask.

Alcohol was also something that let me escape the darkness. It would always find me later, though, and it was always angry that I managed to escape and it made me pay. Many of the irresponsible things I did were the result of the darkness. Obviously I’m responsible for every decision and action, including this one, but there are reasons why things happen the way they do.

Alcohol and other drugs provided a way to ignore the realities of my situation. It was easy to spend the night drinking and forget that I had no future to look forward to. I never liked what alcohol did to me, but it was better than facing my existence honestly. I haven’t touched alcohol or any other drug in over seven months (and no drugs or alcohol will be involved when I do this) and this has forced me to evaluate my life in an honest and clear way. There’s no future here. The darkness will always be with me.

I used to think if I solved some problem or achieved some goal, maybe he would leave. It was comforting to identify tangible issues as the source of my problems instead of something that I’ll never be able to change. I thought that if I got into to a good college, or a good grad school, or lost weight, or went to the gym nearly every day for a year, or created programs that millions of people used, or spent a summer or California or New York or published papers that I was proud of, then maybe I would feel some peace and not be constantly haunted and unhappy. But nothing I did made a dent in how depressed I was on a daily basis and nothing was in any way fulfilling. I’m not sure why I ever thought that would change anything.

I didn’t realize how deep a hold he had on me and my life until my first relationship. I stupidly assumed that no matter how the darkness affected me personally, my romantic relationships would somehow be separated and protected. Growing up I viewed my future relationships as a possible escape from this thing that haunts me every day, but I began to realize how entangled it was with every aspect of my life and how it is never going to release me. Instead of being an escape, relationships and romantic contact with other people only intensified everything about him that I couldn’t stand. I will never be able to have a relationship in which he is not the focus, affecting every aspect of my romantic interactions.

Relationships always started out fine and I’d be able to ignore him for a few weeks. But as we got closer emotionally the darkness would return and every night it’d be me, her and the darkness in a black and gruesome threesome. He would surround me and penetrate me and the more we did the more intense it became. It made me hate being touched, because as long as we were separated I could view her like an outsider viewing something good and kind and untainted. Once we touched, the darkness would envelope her too and take her over and the evil inside me would surround her. I always felt like I was infecting anyone I was with.

Relationships didn’t work. No one I dated was the right match, and I thought that maybe if I found the right person it would overwhelm him. Part of me knew that finding the right person wouldn’t help, so I became interested in girls who obviously had no interest in me. For a while I thought I was gay. I convinced myself that it wasn’t the darkness at all, but rather my orientation, because this would give me control over why things didn’t feel “right”. The fact that the darkness affected sexual matters most intensely made this idea make some sense and I convinced myself of this for a number of years, starting in college after my first relationship ended. I told people I was gay (at Trinity, not at Princeton), even though I wasn’t attracted to men and kept finding myself interested in girls. Because if being gay wasn’t the answer, then what was? People thought I was avoiding my orientation, but I was actually avoiding the truth, which is that while I’m straight, I will never be content with anyone. I know now that the darkness will never leave.

Last spring I met someone who was unlike anyone else I’d ever met. Someone who showed me just how well two people could get along and how much I could care about another human being. Someone I know I could be with and love for the rest of my life, if I weren’t so fucked up. Amazingly, she liked me. She liked the shell of the man the darkness had left behind. But it didn’t matter because I couldn’t be alone with her. It was never just the two of us, it was always the three of us: her, me and the darkness. The closer we got, the more intensely I’d feel the darkness, like some evil mirror of my emotions. All the closeness we had and I loved was complemented by agony that I couldn’t stand, from him. I realized that I would never be able to give her, or anyone, all of me or only me. She could never have me without the darkness and evil inside me. I could never have just her, without the darkness being a part of all of our interactions. I will never be able to be at peace or content or in a healthy relationship. I realized the futility of the romantic part of my life. If I had never met her, I would have realized this as soon as I met someone else who I meshed similarly well with. It’s likely that things wouldn’t have worked out with her and we would have broken up (with our relationship ending, like the majority of relationships do) even if I didn’t have this problem, since we only dated for a short time. But I will face exactly the same problems with the darkness with anyone else. Despite my hopes, love and compatability is not enough. Nothing is enough. There’s no way I can fix this or even push the darkness down far enough to make a relationship or any type of intimacy feasible.

So I watched as things fell apart between us. I had put an explicit time limit on our relationship, since I knew it couldn’t last because of the darkness and didn’t want to hold her back, and this caused a variety of problems. She was put in an unnatural situation that she never should have been a part of. It must have been very hard for her, not knowing what was actually going on with me, but this is not something I’ve ever been able to talk about with anyone. Losing her was very hard for me as well. Not because of her (I got over our relationship relatively quickly), but because of the realization that I would never have another relationship and because it signified the last true, exclusive personal connection I could ever have. This wasn’t apparent to other people, because I could never talk about the real reasons for my sadness. I was very sad in the summer and fall, but it was not because of her, it was because I will never escape the darkness with anyone. She was so loving and kind to me and gave me everything I could have asked for under the circumstances. I’ll never forget how much happiness she brought me in those briefs moments when I could ignore the darkness. I had originally planned to kill myself last winter but never got around to it. (Parts of this letter were written over a year ago, other parts days before doing this.) It was wrong of me to involve myself in her life if this were a possibility and I should have just left her alone, even though we only dated for a few months and things ended a long time ago. She’s just one more person in a long list of people I’ve hurt.

I could spend pages talking about the other relationships I’ve had that were ruined because of my problems and my confusion related to the darkness. I’ve hurt so many great people because of who I am and my inability to experience what needs to be experienced. All I can say is that I tried to be honest with people about what I thought was true.

I’ve spent my life hurting people. Today will be the last time.

I’ve told different people a lot of things, but I’ve never told anyone about what happened to me, ever, for obvious reasons. It took me a while to realize that no matter how close you are to someone or how much they claim to love you, people simply cannot keep secrets. I learned this a few years ago when I thought I was gay and told people. The more harmful the secret, the juicier the gossip and the more likely you are to be betrayed. People don’t care about their word or what they’ve promised, they just do whatever the fuck they want and justify it later. It feels incredibly lonely to realize you can never share something with someone and have it be between just the two of you. I don’t blame anyone in particular, I guess it’s just how people are. Even if I felt like this is something I could have shared, I have no interest in being part of a friendship or relationship where the other person views me as the damaged and contaminated person that I am. So even if I were able to trust someone, I probably would not have told them about what happened to me. At this point I simply don’t care who knows.

I feel an evil inside me. An evil that makes me want to end life. I need to stop this. I need to make sure I don’t kill someone, which is not something that can be easily undone. I don’t know if this is related to what happened to me or something different. I recognize the irony of killing myself to prevent myself from killing someone else, but this decision should indicate what I’m capable of.

So I’ve realized I will never escape the darkness or misery associated with it and I have a responsibility to stop myself from physically harming others.

I’m just a broken, miserable shell of a human being. Being molested has defined me as a person and shaped me as a human being and it has made me the monster I am and there’s nothing I can do to escape it. I don’t know any other existence. I don’t know what life feels like where I’m apart from any of this. I actively despise the person I am. I just feel fundamentally broken, almost non-human. I feel like an animal that woke up one day in a human body, trying to make sense of a foreign world, living among creatures it doesn’t understand and can’t connect with.

I have accepted that the darkness will never allow me to be in a relationship. I will never go to sleep with someone in my arms, feeling the comfort of their hands around me. I will never know what uncontimated intimacy is like. I will never have an exclusive bond with someone, someone who can be the recipient of all the love I have to give. I will never have children, and I wanted to be a father so badly. I think I would have made a good dad. And even if I had fought through the darkness and married and had children all while being unable to feel intimacy, I could have never done that if suicide were a possibility. I did try to minimize pain, although I know that this decision will hurt many of you. If this hurts you, I hope that you can at least forget about me quickly.

There’s no point in identifying who molested me, so I’m just going to leave it at that. I doubt the word of a dead guy with no evidence about something that happened over twenty years ago would have much sway.

You may wonder why I didn’t just talk to a professional about this. I’ve seen a number of doctors since I was a teenager to talk about other issues and I’m positive that another doctor would not have helped. I was never given one piece of actionable advice, ever. More than a few spent a large part of the session reading their notes to remember who I was. And I have no interest in talking about being raped as a child, both because I know it wouldn’t help and because I have no confidence it would remain secret. I know the legal and practical limits of doctor/patient confidentiality, growing up in a house where we’d hear stories about the various mental illnesses of famous people, stories that were passed down through generations. All it takes is one doctor who thinks my story is interesting enough to share or a doctor who thinks it’s her right or responsibility to contact the authorities and have me identify the molestor (justifying her decision by telling herself that someone else might be in danger). All it takes is a single doctor who violates my trust, just like the “friends” who I told I was gay did, and everything would be made public and I’d be forced to live in a world where people would know how fucked up I am. And yes, I realize this indicates that I have severe trust issues, but they’re based on a large number of experiences with people who have shown a profound disrepect for their word and the privacy of others.

People say suicide is selfish. I think it’s selfish to ask people to continue living painful and miserable lives, just so you possibly won’t feel sad for a week or two. Suicide may be a permanent solution to a temporary problem, but it’s also a permanent solution to a ~23 year-old problem that grows more intense and overwhelming every day.

Some people are just dealt bad hands in this life. I know many people have it worse than I do, and maybe I’m just not a strong person, but I really did try to deal with this. I’ve tried to deal with this every day for the last 23 years and I just can’t fucking take it anymore.

I often wonder what life must be like for other people. People who can feel the love from others and give it back unadulterated, people who can experience sex as an intimate and joyous experience, people who can experience the colors and happenings of this world without constant misery. I wonder who I’d be if things had been different or if I were a stronger person. It sounds pretty great.

I’m prepared for death. I’m prepared for the pain and I am ready to no longer exist. Thanks to the strictness of New Jersey gun laws this will probably be much more painful than it needs to be, but what can you do. My only fear at this point is messing something up and surviving.

—

I’d also like to address my family, if you can call them that. I despise everything they stand for and I truly hate them, in a non-emotional, dispassionate and what I believe is a healthy way. The world will be a better place when they’re dead–one with less hatred and intolerance.

If you’re unfamiliar with the situation, my parents are fundamentalist Christians who kicked me out of their house and cut me off financially when I was 19 because I refused to attend seven hours of church a week.

They live in a black and white reality they’ve constructed for themselves. They partition the world into good and evil and survive by hating everything they fear or misunderstand and calling it love. They don’t understand that good and decent people exist all around us, “saved” or not, and that evil and cruel people occupy a large percentage of their church. They take advantage of people looking for hope by teaching them to practice the same hatred they practice.

A random example:

“I am personally convinced that if a Muslim truly believes and obeys the Koran, he will be a terrorist.” – George Zeller, August 24, 2010.

If you choose to follow a religion where, for example, devout Catholics who are trying to be good people are all going to Hell but child molestors go to Heaven (as long as they were “saved” at some point), that’s your choice, but it’s fucked up. Maybe a God who operates by those rules does exist. If so, fuck Him.

Their church was always more important than the members of their family and they happily sacrificed whatever necessary in order to satisfy their contrived beliefs about who they should be.

I grew up in a house where love was proxied through a God I could never believe in. A house where the love of music with any sort of a beat was literally beaten out of me. A house full of hatred and intolerance, run by two people who were experts at appearing kind and warm when others were around. Parents who tell an eight year old that his grandmother is going to Hell because she’s Catholic. Parents who claim not to be racist but then talk about the horrors of miscegenation. I could list hundreds of other examples, but it’s tiring.

Since being kicked out, I’ve interacted with them in relatively normal ways. I talk to them on the phone like nothing happened. I’m not sure why. Maybe because I like pretending I have a family. Maybe I like having people I can talk to about what’s been going on in my life. Whatever the reason, it’s not real and it feels like a sham. I should have never allowed this reconnection to happen.

I wrote the above a while ago, and I do feel like that much of the time. At other times, though, I feel less hateful. I know my parents honestly believe the crap they believe in. I know that my mom, at least, loved me very much and tried her best. One reason I put this off for so long is because I know how much pain it will cause her. She has been sad since she found out I wasn’t “saved”, since she believes I’m going to Hell, which is not a sadness for which I am responsible. That was never going to change, and presumably she believes the state of my physical body is much less important than the state of my soul.Still, I cannot intellectually justify this decision, knowing how much it will hurt her. Maybe my ability to take my own life, knowing how much pain it will cause, shows that I am a monster who doesn’t deserve to live. All I know is that I can’t deal with this pain any longer and I’m am truly sorry I couldn’t wait until my family and everyone I knew died so this could be done without hurting anyone. For years I’ve wished that I’d be hit by a bus or die while saving a baby from drowning so my death might be more acceptable, but I was never so lucky.

—

To those of you who have shown me love, thank you for putting up with all my shittiness and moodiness and arbitrariness. I was never the person I wanted to be. Maybe without the darkness I would have been a better person, maybe not. I did try to be a good person, but I realize I never got very far.

I’m sorry for the pain this causes. I really do wish I had another option. I hope this letter explains why I needed to do this. If you can’t understand this decision, I hope you can at least forgive me.

Bill Zeller

—

Please save this letter and repost it if gets deleted. I don’t want people to wonder why I did this. I disseminated it more widely than I might have otherwise because I’m worried that my family might try to restrict access to it. I don’t mind if this letter is made public. In fact, I’d prefer it be made public to people being unable to read it and drawing their own conclusions.

Feel free to republish this letter, but only if it is reproduced in its entirety.

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• 

Judgment Bus - Harold Camping

Harold Camping has changed his views of scripture throughout the years, but one thing remains the same – Failed Rapture Predictions. This is the second time Harold Camping has predicted the rapture and the second time it hasn’t occurred.

Harold Camping doesn’t really identify himself as Independent Fundamental Baptist. He used to be a strong Calvinist but has departed from that over the years.

I wanted to post this, however, just as a reminder of the strange and dangerous teachings of modern day religious characters. This should serve as a warning and an example of what to look for in a dangerous religious leader.

I remember listening in secret to Harold Camping’s radio show as a teen. I loved his self confidence and his communication style. It was exact, to the point and devoid of fluff. Something I was craving at the time a guess.

I listened in secret because Harold Camping was considered a heretic in my circle of IFBers for teaching Calvinism. But I always enjoyed listening to his views of the Bible.

This story is so interesting to me now because of the strong similarity in the views of Camping and the IFB. Authoritarian, closed minded and abusive (IMHO). Just think of all the non-believers out there laughing hysterically because of another “wack job” or “religious nut case” has failed at predicting the apocalypse. Another “Christian” with a huge voice and power in the Christian community has represented Christianity as doom and gloom.

My IFB circles dismiss Camping’s predictions as just silly because of the verse that states no one know the hour of the rapture (Matthew 24:36). But they also hand wave it as not that big of a deal because the end is near anyway. They tell me all the time that we are “in the last days”. This is just a s silly to me because people have been saying that we are “in the last days” for 2000 years. Besides, you can’t get much more vague than “we are in the last days”.

Anyway, I’m rambling now, but I wanted to try and be another voice that speaks out against people like Camping that trade truth for delusions.

Here’s the sad thing. Apparently people spend significant amounts of money advertising the rapture.  From the Yahoo article on May 23, 2011 “Robert Fitzpatrick, who spent $140,000 of his life savings to advertise the rapture in New York, said he was dumbfounded when life went on as usual Saturday.” Many people are left with nothing after giving up everything because they thought the rapture was going to happen.  This is nothing short of abuse and Harold Camping should be brought to justice.  I say he should be made to repay those who paid for advertising for this crooked fraud.

An unsuspecting victim of Camping’s abusive scriptural teachings reported “…we still believe the Bible.”  Unfortunately this poor deceived soul doesn’t realize that they weren’t “believing the Bible” to begin with.  They were believing the religion of Harold Camping and his INTERPRETATION of scripture.  Sad.

Can you say Con Artist…  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Doomsday-believer-donates-cnnm-2627911146.html

***********************************************************************

May 24, 2011 – Lets see if Camping can go 0-3.  He is now predicting an October 21, 2011 rapture.  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110524/ap_on_re_us/us_apocalypse_saturday

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• 

Independent deception

I get so many comments and emails complaining that the IFB can’t be considered a denomination because they are “Independent” Fundamental Baptists with an obvious emphasis on the “independent” part. I really can’t believe the number if people who take offense to my calling the IFB a denomination. Well, I guess I can believe it because I was taught this as well in my IFB experience. I guess it was just unexpected how many emails and comments I would get related to the defense of the IFB as “Independent”. There are so many thing’s wrong with the IFB that this seems minor in comparison.

I’ve discussed this topic at length with several folks who have asked me for a debate. The same argument keeps coming up over and over again, so I thought I’d write a post explaining my position on this. That way when someone else wants to argue this point I can just refer them to this page and they can take it or leave it.

Lets take the emotions out of the equation. IFBers are emotionally tied to the idea that they are “independent” – free of any governing body, autonomous and self sustaining. If we take the emotions out of the equation we can think logically about it and apply some much needed critical thinking I think we will see that this idea of “independence” is really nothing more than slight of hand.

The IFB teaches, as I was taught when I was in the throws of this cult-like denomination, that because they are “Independent” they are somehow exempt from scrutiny because each church operates and governs itself “independently” from any other organization or church. As an example, a recent visitor commented on the ABC’s 20/20 investigation of the IFB by stating

“I find it ironic that the term IFB is used rather than the whole name, INDEPENDENT Fundamental Baptist. The key word is Independent. You cannot judge all Independent Baptist churches by one. church because they are INDEPENDENT of each other.”

This is a perfect example of the thinking of the IFB. This is nothing more than mere hand waving and it is crammed down the throats of every IFB congregation (well, OK, MOST IFB congregations – there are you happy those of you who would blame me for sweeping generalizations?).

Personally, I think this issue is a con game. It’s a slight of hand misdirection to keep people from thinking that the IFB as a whole – the IFB “group” for lack of a better term – is connected in many ways (which I will talk about so keep reading). I also think it’s this is an area of focus for leaders so that other major issues are kept in the background, unnoticed – or what we call in Philosophy 101, a Red Herring fallacy.

Majoring on the minors

I plan to write an article on the topic of “majoring on the minors” at a later date, but this issue can serve as an example for now. The logical side of me wonders if the IFB focuses on this issue to distract from more pressing issues. This is certainly evident on this site. Out of all the problems and horror stories presented on this site, the most frequent complaint I get is this issue of calling the IFB a denomination.

Child sexual abuse, mental manipulation, financial cons/scams (i.e., tithing), etc. all happen withing the IFB and people are worried about me calling the IFB a denomination. If that’s not telling about the false teachings and brainwashing that happens withing the IFB I honestly don’t know what is.

So lets think logically about this for a moment. The definition of a denomination is simply “a religious group, usually including many local churches…” and “a name or designation, especially one for a class of things” The American Heritage Dictionary. According to those definitions, the IFB would be considered a denomination.

But lets not only step outside of our emotions for a moment, lets even go a step further and step outside of the dictionary definition of a denomination and think completely logically for a moment. If there are several church/religious meeting congregations (to use a church word) around the country that teach similar beliefs, traditions, doctrines, etc., and each use THE SAME NAME to identify themselves, what else would you call it? a group? a congregation?, a union?, an organization? or can we not just use the typical word that’s used in our society to identify a like minded group of people with a religious preference – a denomination?

Logic dictates that ultimately this is nothing more than a semantics game that the IFBer use. The word “Independent” is really a misnomer if you think logically about it.

If a person accused me of sweeping generalizations I must insist that it is not me who is making the comparison. As already stated on this site, I’m simply sharing my experiences. So the association with all things IFB is the IFBer’s association not mine. A person who is an Independent Fundamental Baptist calls himself/herself such because they WANT to associate with a certain set of beliefs and values. IFBers are associating with the IFB because that’s what they WANT to be – and for all reasons that they have. This is THEIR association not mine. I didn’t choose that association for them.

The same is true for a particular church. If a particular church or congregation call themselves Independent Fundamental Baptist then they are associating with all that represents an Independent Fundamental Baptist church. That’s their association not mine.

One disgruntled visitor picked a fight about this topic with me and stated

“The “I” in IFB is supposed to stand for independent. Therefore we are not or at least are not supposed to be chained or linked together in any way. The idea of multiple Churches banding together a pooling their financial and clergical resources together is absolutely in no way scriptural. This idea was originally started by the Roman Catholic Church and due to the Protestant reformation these flawed and unbiblical practices carried on with those who left the Catholic Church. I can say for fact though that a true IFB Church does not claim to be Protestant because we were never in anyway associated with the RCC.”

This simply isn’t true. The IFB would like you to think that of course, but most IFB churches are started as a “sister or daughter church” of another IFB church. My family helped start three of them. They weren’t allowed to operate unless they did things the exact same way as the “sending” church. There may not be a national convention that each church answers to or a corporate identity, but there is certainly not “independence” in the sense that the IFB would have you think. The term “Independent” is truly a misnomer. The idea that the IFB church is “independent” is a blatant lie at best and manipulation at worst.

The IFB really is a brand – for lack of a better term. To think otherwise is nothing short of delusional. If a church doesn’t want the association of Independent, Fundamental, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian or whatever, then they shouldn’t associate as such. The error in association is the church’s not mine. This isn’t blame shifting, but simple common sense. If a church calls itself Independent Fundamental Baptist then it needs to be willing to accept the associations that go along with it – both good and bad.

*****************************************

Update:

It came to my attention by an astute reader that there actually does exist a “fellowship” of Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches in each individual state. Upon further investigation I’ve found at least 42 states have an organizational body called a “Fellowship of Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches” and two Global organizations.

The first one is the Global Independent Fundamental Baptist Fellowship www.gifb.org and the second one is the Independent Fundamental Baptist International www.fbfi.org.

So much for “Independent” eh?

It would be interesting some day to do a comparison of Arv Edgworth’s arguments about the IFB being “independent from any organizational body” and the mission of those global/international “fellowships”.

By the way, isn’t it interesting to see the word play here? The use of “fellowship” is a nice way to disguise an organizational body isn’t it? Hmmm…

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• 

ABC’s 20/20 exposes abuse within the Independent Fundamental Baptist Denomination.

This site experienced a surge of traffic during the time the show aired which was a confirmation to me that this is really a hot issue and a much needed topic of exploration and exposure. Tina Anderson and I have had contact in the past and I would urge all of you to head on over to her site and at least read about her experiences.

This is a fantastic opportunity to shed light on the IFB and their abusive teachings. The show does a great job of exposing what really happens. It’s not made up nor is it exaggerated. This was the type of church I was in growing up and they do a much better job of sharing what this site is trying to expose. So here is the show, or at least what’s available from Hulu.com

Here is the Press Release related to the show:

Wednesday, April 06, 2011
ABC Television Network
PRESS RELEASE – PRESS RELEASE – ENTERTAINMENT –
ON FRIDAY’S 20/20 (4/8)
Print This Document

A RELIGIOUS SUB-CULTURE THAT MANY AMERICANS HAVE NEVER HEARD OF, YET WHICH HAS THOUSANDS OF CHURCHES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, CHURCHES THAT CRITICS
CLAIM CAN FOSTER PHYSICAL AND SEXUAL ABUSE, ON ABC NEWS’ “20/20″

Elizabeth Vargas’ Yearlong Investigation into the Independent
Fundamental Baptist Church Airs Friday, April 8

Try to imagine the pain and humiliation of a teenage girl, just 15 years old, who says she was forced to stand in front of a New Hampshire church congregation and confess her “sin” of being pregnant. She says that, not only was she forced to confess her pregnancy, but also to ask for their forgiveness – with no mention of the man she says sexually abused her. After all, she says, the pastor told her it’s better than being stoned to death, as the bible describes. That is what Tina Anderson alleged happened to her at her ultra conservative Independent Fundamental Baptist — or IFB — church. The IFB has thousands of congregations across the country, but many people had never heard of it… That was, until another woman, Jocelyn Zichterman, began a public campaign, armed with nothing but a computer and memories of her own alleged abuse, which she says church beliefs can foster. And survivors are now coming out of the woodwork to say she’s not alone. Elizabeth Vargas’ yearlong exclusive investigation into a religious sub-culture that critics claim can foster – even cover up – physical and sexual abuse airs on “20/20,” FRIDAY, APRIL 8 (10:00-11:00 p.m., ET) on ABC.

Critics say the church teaches a strict interpretation of the bible, including the practice known as breaking the will of the child, with some advocating that it even be applied to infants as young as two weeks old.

“I had a decision to make that either I was going to kind of curl up in the corner and be quiet or I was going to stand up for my family and tell the truth,” says Jocelyn Zichterman.

Pastor Chuck Phelps, the former pastor at Tina Anderson’s New Hampshire church, denies Tina was disciplined by the church or that there was any attempt to cover up a crime. He declined repeated interview requests but provided a statement: “Tina was involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with Mr. Ernie Willis… Tina lied to her mother and to me about this relationship.” He also said he brought the allegations to the attention of police who failed to investigate further. Ernie Willis, Tina Anderson’s alleged attacker, has pleaded not guilty to sexual assault.

Brian Fuller, the current pastor at Tina’s former IFB church, says all IFB churches operate independently and that his church has nothing to hide. He opened his doors to “20/20″ cameras, was critical of how Tina’s case was handled and denounced any abusive disciplinary practices, adding: “The Bible says that I’m supposed to love my children, I’m never supposed to ever do anything out of anger or manipulation. And that’s what our people are taught here.”

“20/20″ is anchored by Elizabeth Vargas and Chris Cuomo. David Sloan is executive producer.

ABC News Media Relations:
Alyssa Ziegler Apple (212) 456-1624

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/biblical-discipline-physical-sexual-abuse-alligations-fundemental-baptists-church-13332803

Press release courtesy of: http://www.abcmedianet.com/web/dnr/dispDNR.aspx?id=040611_03

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• 

I don’t have much to say about this issue except to give my story of how I came to realize this deception from the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church.

The IFB are notorious for claiming the importance of attending a “Bible Believing, Bible Preaching” church. The implication, of course, is that you will be attending a “Bible Believing, bible Preaching” church ONLY if you attend an IFB church. It was never overtly stated, but implied that if you didn’t attend an IFB church then you weren’t attending a “Bible Believing, Bible Preaching” church.

They never used scripture to defend this, just the idea that only the IFB truly believe and teach the Bible. I remember during my final year as an IFB discussing this with a trusted friend who had already come out of the IFB. We were discussing the differences among our churches and I had mentioned the importance of attending a “Bible believing, Bible preaching” church.

Her response was simple, but remarkably profound for me and began the change in my thinking that was so desperately needed. She simply said: “Do you really think that I don’t believe the Bible?” That simple question was enough to get me thinking about this subtle, but extremely manipulative idea that the IFB holds the patent on truth, that somehow only they truly believe the Bible. Honestly I had never thought about it before. I just accepted that the IFB was the ONLY source of truth. I was truly brainwashed into thinking this lie.

This is directly tied to the IFB’s incessant insistence that the KJV is the only version that is truly God’s word. The idea is that other churches/denominations don’t use the KJV therefore they aren’t preaching or teaching the truth.

This deception is directly tied to the idea that one must go to church as well and that that church should be an IFB church otherwise you aren’t really getting Biblical truth. I plan to talk about church attendance in a future post.

I wish all who read this and have been fed the lie that the IFB is the only source of Biblical truth and that if you don’t attend an IFB then you aren’t really hearing the truth to reconsider. You will be – or perhaps have been – told that if you don’t attend an IFB church that you aren’t really a “Bible Believing” Christian. This is a lie and a deception. Because of the subtle nature in which the IFB promotes this idea, this deception is very abusive and dangerous. Be aware of it and I encourage you to questions your pastor should he ever mention this idea to you.

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• 

Kenneth Fuquay originally posted a comment on the site that was rather derogatory. He wrote:

Hey Steve, I have spent as much time on your site as my stomach can stand. I know from reading several of your responses to pastors trying to reason with you that you simply enjoy arguing. I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you simply because I know you enjoy arguing and you can’t stand being wrong, in fact you refuse to be wrong and it doesn’t matter to you how far out in left field you have to go to refute sound do tribal teaching. I wonder if you realize how wushu washy you are about the garbage you are spreading about the IFB CHURCH! That’s right I said CHURCH! The last time I checked the Church was an institution that Jesus himself ordained when he told Peter that upon this rock (Peter) will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. You know, my Bible teaches that the only person who attacks the Church of God is Satan. I really don’t understand what your problem is and I really don’t understand why if you were so unhappy in the IFB why you waited until you were 25 years old to leave? I really doubt they locked you in and held you hostage so I’m guessing (based on your arrogant unsubmissive attitude you portray throughout your writings) that you were perfectly happy with the Church you were attending until something caused you to blow a gasket. I’m guessing that you were blatantly sinning and the Pastor or other member of the Church called you out on it and instead of doing what the Bible says for you to do which is to repent, not to man but God( were Baptist not Catholic). My other guess is that here you are, 25 all grown up and someone in the Church suggested to you that maybe it’s time for you to start serving the Lord (He’s still waiting by the way) and you didn’t want to deal with the acountability and responsibility of being a leader in the Church. By the way hiding yourself behind the mask of this website does not keep you hidden from God. You will have to answer for every idle word you spew out in anger about Gods Church on this website. I do want to suggest to you that maybe you wouldn’t seem so ignorant if maybe you tried doing a little homework about the Bible and almighty God’s Church before you start ranting about them. I called you wishy washy earlier based on a couple of topics I picked out from your rants. Number one, you claim that the KJV is full of errors and it’s just a copy of a copy of a copy. That part, as much as I hate to admit it I agree with based on the fact that we no longer have the original transcripts. You even said this yourself but later on in your rant you claim that the modern versions are more accurate because they follow the original manuscripts more closely than the KJV. Hello! Didn’t you just finish saying that we no longer have the original transcripts? So how in the world do you or anybody know if these modern translations are closer to the “original” transcripts or not? Another point you tried to make about us KJVonlyist is that we claim that the KJV is more accurate because it’s older. How about trying to not put words in our mouths. Although I do believe the KJV to be Gods preserved word to the English speaking people I don’t make this assumption based on it’s age, but you on the other hand do make assumptions that older means better (more accurate) when it comes to the age of which text the modern versions are translated from when you claimed that the modern versions are more accurate because they are translated from earlier manuscripts. Make up your mind! What’s it gunna be olders better or not. Oh yeah and the Obam/Bush comparison was a horrible example of age not meaning better. Obama is the worst president in history. I am getting tired of typing on my phone so I’M going to try to wrap it up. I am just really trying to figure out why you hate the IFB Church so much that you felt the need to create a website totally dedicated to attacking the Church of my Lord and Savior Jeaus Christ by spreading lies and misguided information. Yes the IFB Church is a relatively small organization and are in no way affiliated with one another but in case you didn’t realize it God did promise to preserve himself a people who hold true tomhis laws and statutes which isn’t a bad thing as you try to make it our to be. From reading most of you hate filled message I noticed that your biggest beef with the IFB Church is it’s strictness. Well in case you didn’t notice Jesus was never as relaxed in his teachings as you and your ecumenical buddies want it to be. Jesus was always cut and dry, your either hot or cold there is no middle ground. I don’t think you even realize what the word fundamental means. Let me explain it to you. Fundamental means we stick stricly to the teachings of the Bible. If that means we are viewed as radical then so be it. I would rather God say well done my good and faithful servant than to hear him say what’s the matter with you? Are you retarded? I gave you an instruction book and you took it upon yourself to rewrite it to fit your self. People talk about how crazy fundamental Islamist are and that they are the radicals in their religion but actually they are the ones who are truly living the life that the quaran tells them to the other ones you don’t hear about are the ecumenical ones like you and you followers who choosemto live the watered down versions. Well I’m tired of writing on this phone and it’s getting late anyways so I better stop. I can’t wait to see the brutal way you attack my reffutal because we all know how much you hate to let someone else have the last word, but if you are serious about having a debate the. count me in. I say this because I noticed that you made the remark that you would like to debate one of the Pastors who wrote you. I will only debate you with scripture though and not your personal agenda. oh yeah I forgot you don’t believe the scripture since nobody has a perfect Bible. One last question, if you believe that no Bible is perfect and that fallible man has corrupted the word of God then why don’t we all just burn all of our Bibles since none of us know what is genuine or what was added by fallible man. oh never mind I forgot Almighty Steve will enlighten us all since he is all knowing and perfect and undoubtably more superior to the almighty infallible eternal God who is the same yesterday today and forever who created everything including his own word but is simply way to incompetent to preserve his word to all generations as he promised. Do you really believe that God is mighty and intelligent enough to create all things but is not capable of keeping some ink on paper unchanged for all mankind. Yes I know you are saying to yourself that man did the translating so therefore is is flawed. But don’t you think that All knowing God took measures to keep his own promise to mankind? I am serious about talking to you more
about this so I am going to give you my email and phone number if you would like my mailing address contact memandmI will provide you with that also. Anyways sorry about all the typos as I mention I’m typing on my phone So it’s
kinda hard to do.

sincerely
Kenneth Fuquay
254 433 3438
kennethfuquay@gmail.com. Hope To hear from you soon

Thinking that Kenneth was here to simply berate and perpetuate the abuse from the IFB, I didn’t take his comment too seriously. So I replied with:

I just like to let comments like this speak for itself. The most interesting thing about this post is at the beginning Kenneth states: “I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you…” then at the end states: “I’m serious about talking to you more about this…”

Kenneth is your typical blog troll. Not worth wasting time on a reply. I think it’s funny actually, and quite sad because he really believes what he is saying. It’s a good example of how confused someone can get with the IFB.

Steve

I was surprised later when Kenneth posted three more comments and I received the following email from Kenneth:

Hey Steve I have an idea that I want run by you and see what you think. I was wondering if you would be interested in not debating me but interviewing me on my Fundamental Baptist beliefs? I was thinking that you could ask me every tough question you can think of and I promise to answer your questions with percent honesty. The reason I want to do this is to answer questions with my own words and let your readers make a decision on what they want to believe based on information from both sides of the argument. I think that after doing this your readers would be better prepared to make an informed decision as to what they believe about the IFB. Again I want to appogize once again to you for lashing out at you the way I did in my post yesterday. I had just finished reading a large portion of the material on your site and I was a bit upset when I was writing that and I let my emotions get out of control it remember this is an apology not an acknowledgement that I am wrong. Anyways back to my idea, I was thinking that we could set up an agreeable time and you could encourage your readers to offer questions that they would like answered or complaints that they or you might want to hear how I justify or rebuke these complaints or comments. I think it could be kind of fun and educational for the both of us as well as your readers. The reason I want to do this is because as you know I find a lot of the information on your site to be completely false at least as far as my Church and my beliefs are concerned and I would like the opportunity to explain mine and my Churches view in my own words and the. let your readers make up their own minds. Also it would be a great opportunity for you to show the world just how big of a whacko I am and once again letting your readers see both perspectives and come to their own conclusion. I was thinking that maybe we could do it in an instant message format some how so the readers could view it live and maybe make their own comments during the session. So what do you think? I think it will definently cause a lot of discussion on your site afterwards and really boost intrest in this matter. Please email me with your response. I really hope you are interested in doing this. God bless Kenneth

I replied:

Hey Kenneth,

I appreciate your interest in the site. I like your suggestion, but this is something I do this in my spare time so I don’t have the time for such an endeavor. Besides, I’m afraid that there isn’t as much interest in my site as you seem to think. I don’t think there would be many people interested.

If you want to have a discussion I’ll be more than happy to set up a section on the site for us to do that. If not then feel free to post comments at your leisure. I’ll not engage in discussion in the general comments section though so if you want to have a discussion let me know and I will set it up.

Your most recent comments are pending your decision since they appear to be comments designed to engage me in discussion.

Let me know.

Steve

Kenneth agreed and thus started our discussion. It will begin with his three comments that were moved here to make the discussion easier to follow.

Thanks for your interest.

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I Corinthians 14:33 has long been misinterpreted by the IFB leading to a very dangerous deception.

I was taught in my IFB experience that when making a decision God would give me peace about the right direction and I Corinthians 14:33 was always quoted to justify the idea. The KJV writes: “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

I remember several big decisions in my life where I was very confused and my parents and pastor would always tell me, “God is not the author of confusion, Satan is the one confusing you”. Then they would proceed to tell me that God would give me peace about which direction to take. (Then they would give a subtle hint that the one God would give me peace about is the one that fit more inline with the teachings of the IFB, but that’s for another post).

There are several things to point out about this topic that are important to point out and be aware of. The first thing to notice is the mis-interpretation of the KJV in this verse. The KJV incorrectly interprets the this verse by using the word “confusion”. The correct interpretation should be “disorder” rather than “confusion”. When interpreted correctly we see that “God is not the author of DISORDER“. The NLT, by the way, gets it right: “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the meetings of God’s holy people.”

The second thing to consider is the context of the entire passage. Paul is instructing the church at Corinth about the order of their worship services. He is giving them instructions so that their worship would be orderly. It’s pretty clear from the context that Paul is talking about God’s desire for us to be orderly.

It’s important for the IFB to stop making this deception. There are times when we all will be confused about things and even if we are confused it’s not because Satan is confusing us nor is it because we don’t have peace from God about a particular situation. This idea of God giving us peace about the decision He wants us to make is unfounded and unscriptural.

Many people suffer because they have a difficult time finding peace in certain situations. There are, however, situations where peace can’t be found. That doesn’t mean God isn’t involved. I’m saddened by this abusive teaching and misunderstanding of God and I Corinthians 14:33. Please remember, when you are facing a difficult decision or you are confused about a path of life and someone tells you “God is not the author of confusion” they are not really understanding what they are saying.

On a related note the IFB has trumped up the idea that the mental illness of anxiety is related to “being out of God’s will” because of this verse. They will tell you that if you are anxious or confused that you have Satan’s influence on you and that you need to “get right with God since He is not the author of confusion.” Be very careful to make sure you understand that this isn’t true.

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