Independent Fundamental Baptist

HELP!
To begin, I was raised IFB. While growing up I dont recall ever feeling anything but shame and guilt after going to church on sunday mornings. I do recall in my memories, thinking that alot of the rules and instruction given were “off the wall”.
All of this has led to where I am today, though it took a long time for all of this to come out.
I am now 37 and married for 15 years to my highschool girlfriend. She was raised church of christ for about 12 years then IFB afterward. Her parents are VERY strict and taken by all the IFB standards. We moved away shortly after highschool and things were great. We were attending church, but not caught up in all the crazy man made rules. Me and my wife were then a team and we did everything together. Now we are totally apart except that we still put on the show of a happily married couple.
The seperation between us started when we began attending a IFB church after moving again 7 years ago. She has become more and more involved with this church as I have become distanced from it because of the crazy rules and beliefs set forth by most of the members and the pastor. She is also taking our kids with her as well and I am afraid they too will become “brainwashed”. My wife has been SAVED three times since she started going to this church because they induce heavy guilt upon the congregation during every meeting. My son has also been SAVED twice due to a IFB youth seminar in which the rantings and worked up mood of a very practiced soul winning preacher breaks the childs confidence and assures him that he is not saved.
My wife has taken on a sunday school teaching role. She has seemingly abandoned my home and is at the church at least 5 times a week sometimes until 10 PM. Her new found friends have convinced her that wearing pants is unbiblical and have ofcourse given scripture to accompany this. I am enraged at all of the crazy thoughts they have put in her head and I am very concerned for my children. I am also convinced that I will not be able to live like this alot longer. I would like to ask if anyone has any ideas that might help pull her out of this situation and bring us back together as a family. She is very defensive and will bring up scripture “pulled out of context” and she will also state that the views she shares with the church are biblically sound. I am afraid she is falling for man made rules and mistaking them for the word of GOD.

Please help….

J.R.
I am very sorry to hear about your situation. I was in almost the exact same position three years ago.
It sounds like the church has embraced false teaching and may be cult-like. You are going to have to be ready to make a stand for the truth. Get ready, you may be in for a real fight if you want to move your family away from that particular church. I will pray for you and your situation.

i keep hearing legalism. legalism is works for salvation. most independent fundemental Bible believing churchs do not teach legalism. and those who do are only in name not doctrine. salvation is by grace through faith. that is it. nothing else.
as far as standard, i do not believe woman should wear pants. the Bible says a woman should not wear mans clothing and vice versa. pants were made for men, i know, some say pants are made for woman now as well, but they were made for men originally. in fact, they can make a dress for a man, doesn’t mean it is right. i do not condemn woman who wear pants, our church has several woman who wear them, but we do believe there ought to be a difference in how we dress. the Bible does talk about this in great length. in fact in the Bible, modest apparel is a long flowing garmen. not form fitting, tight revealing the parts of the body that should not be revealed.
the Bible says, come out from among them and be ye seperate and touch not the unclean thing… now we are in the world, but not of the world. if the world hate us, remember it hate Me (Christ) first. as a Christian grows in the Lord, he/she will get rid of things in their lives that do not belong there. God does look on the heart, but what is in the heart will be shown outwardly as well. women should look lide women and men should look like men. sodomy is wrong just like lying, incest, fornication, adultery, backbiting, murmuring, stealing and murder.
as far as the King James Bible, if you speak and read english then it is the Bible for you. other translations come from other manuscripts and leave out parts of the Bible, change it to meand something else. and yes there are books you can buy that show every difference between the KJV and other translations. on the whole, and studies from none Christians groups even, prove and say the KJV is the easiest of all translations to read and understand.
tithing, giving what ever you want to call is commanded in the Bible. now, if for no other reason, we should do it because the Bible says too, but the Bible does teach we ought to do it because we love Him. Christ said, if ye love me, keep my commandments. noone who knows the Bible can say that these verses have been used out of context either.
the Bible does not teach religous toleration nor mixing of religion.
now praise the Lord we live in a free country and we can believe what we want to believe. at the same time, God gave us the right to choose to believe what we want. to refuse Him or accept Him at the same time nowhere does the Scripture teach or show Christ tolerating or mixing religions and sins.
now if you don’t like your church, find one you do like. if your pastor is not preaching correct doctrine, then it is the churches responsibility to replace him or go somewhere else.
eveyone in here almost is bashing standards or so it seems, but dress standards, music standards and every other standard, even those who we are to associate and fellowship with are found in the Bible, but i here no one knocking the Bible, just the churches who follow it. now if you don’t believe, great fine and dandy, that is your choice and at least you are man enough to say what you believe whether you are right, wrong or indiffernt.
i attend an independant Bible believing baptist church and only those who call us legalistic or wrong are those who eventually leave the church and find one they agree with or not at all. but most of them have proven with their lifestyle, that it is not what the church believed was wrong, but that they were. they don’t even know what the Bible says. i have a friend who quit coming because we do teach women should not wear pants and he said we were legalistic. legalism is salvation by works not faith. baptist are not legalistic. we may have high standards, but not legalism.
as far as brainwashing, we teach and preach the Bible, just like the world teaches immorality, ammoral, no right or wrong, your brain is filled with the truth or lies, just depends on what you are filling it with and believing.
and yes you can be saved on your way to heaven and not use the KJV or go to a baptist church and live like the wolrd. you might be wrong, but you can still be on your way to heaven if by faith you have trusted Christ as you Lord and Saviour.
most who take the Bible out of context by the way are those who are trying to justify not living the holy life they KNOW they are supposed to be living.

THANK YOU Larry…very well said. I appreciate both yours and Bob’s comments on here.

Larry, you’re giving us your definition of legalism (and that of many other Baptists). The word legalism does not always mean “salvation by works.” To me it means trying to enforce a set of standards on someone or trying to make someone live by a very legal standard. In many cases, this “standard” is more a case of personal preferences than actual biblical rules. Dictionary.com has a few definitions of legalism, but these two stand out: “a. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
b. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.” I think that what most of us are talking about here is the latter of the two definitions.
So as far as these standards that we’re talking about, are they definite, biblical rules that God wants us to follow or are they personal rules? For example, does the Bible specifically prohibit women from wearing pants? Does the Bible prohibit a Christian from listening to say, bluegrass gospel as opposed to hymns? Where in the Bible does it say that men have to wear suits with a white button-up shirt to church? Where in the Bible does it say that it is mandatory for a Christian to tithe? These are all examples of doctrine that is forced upon us by many within our denomination. The reality is that many of these examples (and many others) are based on personal preference, not direct clear-cut guidance from the Bible. I go to an IFB church and will probably continue to do so, but I don’t think that we’re always right on everything. We have a bad habit of trying to enforce our own likes and dislikes on others and then question their level of commitment because they don’t measure up to our standard (spiritual pride). I do agree with you on the KJV though.

Larry,
Teaching women to wear dresses is a false teaching. 1 Tim. 1:3 warns about teaching different doctrines. If the bible does not clearly teach dresses for women then it is a false teaching. It doesn’t matter how wonderful you think dresses are, you are in error.
Neither tithes or giving are commanded in the bible. Stop putting believers under a yoke of slavery.
Also, if the King James version was the one we should use, why didn’t God say so. Did God tell you and not me what version we should use? Stop teaching different doctrines.
How could you not know that legalism affects the believers walk as well as justification? Paul wrote the book of Galatians to Christians who were troubled by legalistic false teachers. Paul had strong words for those who were trying to put the Galatian Christians under law.

may i say one thing is it wrong for a church to have standards of there workers i am what the baptist church would call a bus kid and by any other church i would have been deemed a lost cause i LOVE jack schaaps preaching!!!! what ever happened to the days when it was ok to preach against sin preaching is too nice today even amoung the baptist church and i have more respect for a man that holds his love for God to high standards i wanna go to church her God speak through a sermon and go home and honestly feel like crap be humbled and exspearance a true change from the lord

Larry, Your understanding and definition of legalism is flawed. Yes, adding works to the finished work of Christ for salvation is legalism. But what you are saying is that once a person is saved, we are to live by rules, “standards,” law. This too is legalism and negates relationship with Christ.

http://www.theopedia.com/Legalism
Legalism, in Christianity, is a term referring to an improper fixation on law or codes of conduct for a person to merit or obtain salvation, blessing from God, or fellowship with God, with an attendant misunderstanding of the grace of God.
Simply put, legalism is belief that obedience to the law or a set of rules is the pre-eminent principle of redemption and/or favor with God. Its opposite extreme is antinomianism which claims that moral laws are not binding on Christian believers.

Then you state: “in fact in the Bible, modest apparel is a long flowing garmen. not form fitting, tight revealing the parts of the body that should not be revealed.”
So by your own definition, men are immodestly dressed!

I have further studied and searched the scripture pertaining to the issue of clothing.
The most common verse quoted by those proclaiming that women should only wear dresses is Deuteronomy 22:5. This verse, when taken out of context is viewed and applied by many as to pertain to clothing. The verse, when researched as it should be “as commanded in the bible to seek out the truth” speaks of ceremonial law to begin with. Furthermore the verse, when correctly translated by ANY scholar identifies without arguement that the verse is talking about items worn by a Man ” actually translated STRONG man” who is a warrior or soldier. These items in reference are to the nature of swords and armor, not having anything to do with the clothing being INDIFFERENT between a man and a woman. I would also like to know where the bible states in the KJV that the clothing of a woman is described as ” modest apparel is a long flowing garment”. I am not saying that this is not in the KJV bible but have not been able to locate this. Please refer to me this verse if I am in error. I am still searching the word of God and the references available to me for all the truth I can find.

Thanks to all for the replies on this. …. JR

Bob, we believe in and use the KJV instead of the other versions because of the major differences between them. The vast majority of new versions agree in the places that they disagree with the King James (Mark 9:46, 1 John 5:7-8, Matt. 23:14, et al). We believe that God inspired and preserved his word with no errors (Psalm 12:6-7, Psalm 119:89, Matt. 24:35), and that the preserved version for English speaking people is the KJV. We do not believe that you need to compare all the versions to find out what God really meant nor do we believe you need to be able to read ancient Greek or Hebrew to know what God really said. I believe that the author of all the confusion regarding the different versions is the devil, not the Lord. He (the devil) has been attacking the Word from the beginning (Gen 3:1), and this attack partially consists of deleting and changing many key passages, which we can see in the new versions.

John,
God certainly has promised to preserve His word. It is not difficult to see how God has providentially preserved His word during the last 3,500 yrs. There is nothing wrong with the KJV. It has proved to be a fine translation over the years.
Look, if God thinks we should be using the KJV, why didn’t He just say so? It is fairly obvious that God didn’t say we should be using the KJV. You need to be careful about holding to teachings that the bible doesn’t support.

The exaltation of the KJV to perfection and lifting it as the standard whereby all else is judged is delusional. Is it a good translation? Yes, as are others.

http://www.kjvonly.org/
http://www.kjv-only.com/

My focus is not on an optional activity which exists outside the church on a sporadic basis. My posts have to do with worship services, youth activities, educational materials, bus ministries, campaigns, and leadership within a particular assembly that affect everyone the same way and are subject to ridicule when not adhered or when violated. I am not referring to state ro federal felonies or ettiquette or dress standards which would probably be reasonable in most work places. A private institution can set its own codes of conduct for its members. This does not apply to those who do not attend even if they are related to somebody who does. I think churches might be able to provide guidance to members in some social situations so that being a member of a church does not force a person to leave one’s family in this country. I realize in countries where Christianity is forbidden, this may happen if persecution is involved. However, at this writing, we still have a lot of choices where, when, and how we worship, especially in larger metropolitan areas. It’s wonderful when families do worship together because they share beliefs and values and attend with enthusiasm. It’s wonderful to have visitors. A member often attends instructional classes prior to officially joining the church and definitely before being allowed to vote. I am referring to situations which apply and are mandated by the whole church body at any given time.

J.R.
My understanding of Duet. 22:5 is that this verse is referring to those who purposely dress to look like the opposite sex. The reason it applies today is because God said this act is an abomination. Whatever was an abomination to God then, would be now also. I have no idea what this has to do with women wearing pants.
As far as the long flowing robes, I am drawing a blank.

Bob, what Gods said and what we believe is that God preserved His Word. If He did, where is it? Is it contained in several translations that we have to combine to get what God said? Or is it only contained in the “originals” which no man has seen in a very long time? Or is it not preserved and we just have to hope in the “better renderings” and more “accurate translations”? No, we feel that God has preserved His Word and that it is the KJV for English-speaking people, and we feel that the other translations are the result of Satan’s attack on the Word. It’s really that simple. Can anyone answer why God would inspire His Word exactly the way He wants yet wouldn’t preserve it?

John,
The evidence that God has preserved His word is in the nearly 6,000 copies of the original N.T. manuscripts.

“…what Gods said and what we believe is that God preserved His Word. If He did, where is it?”

Please, Please tell me what this “preserved Word of God” was called in the year 1610.

Maybe God woke up one day, put his head in his hand and his elbow on his knee – looked at Jesus and said, “Ya know, I just feel like I’m forgetting something.” Jesus being as insightful as he is maybe asked, “Did you get the KJV…er I mean the KJB finished yet? You know it is the year 1611 and people are waiting?”

I mean, after all, don’t you state that God promised to preserve His word to ALL generations?

Please tell me what this “preserved Word of God” was called in the year 1610.

My initial acceptance occurred at a campground many years before I attended this particular church. At the camp, the decision i made was a private one preceded by four weeks of vacation Bible school at camp every morning. It was backed up by further instruction at a private school I attended in elementary school. I had been to other churches as well. I had also attended Sunday School four months before i responded to an altar call. I knew the references in the Bible for Baptism by iimmersion. This is not something I personally entered into very lightly. At this time, I also had instruction in confession and Holy Communion as well. Therefore, for me, i do not think I rushed into this decision. i do feel that I was pressured into rushing into membership though as it was pretty much handled with Baptism at the same time. However, for others, i felt there was very little time between the time they responded to an invitation and were baptized with very little instruction, perhaps only a soulwinning visitation. Some won’t question quick decisions. This is my question. Many pastors will take a lot more time to counsel an engaged couple prior to getting married in the church, adn definitely at the college level. There were very strict rules and counseling was required prior to marriage. I think permission was required prior to engagement too for those who wanted to marry on campus. That’s what other engaged couples who married on campus told me. They also had to wait until their junior or senior year and receive counseling either at the school or at their home church if they wanted to marry on campus or while they were enrolled as students at the school even in between semesters. In the New Testament, we not only learn about the marriage between a man and a woman but between Jesus Christ who is considered the groom and the Chiistian who is considered the bride. I know other churches whether they are IFB or other affiliations do take more time to instruct their believers in between the response to an invitation as well as for membership and ordinances or sacraments such as Baptism and Confession and Holy Communion. At the Baptist church, these were called ordinances but I do know many churches call these sacraments. For those churches who practice confirmation, many also take a long time with teenagers preparing for that as well. I know churches who have taken from 4-9 weeks of classes in specific insturction, sometimes even longer. They try to know the converts.

This may explain why my differences occurred with this church and others I have attended where i felt I grew as a Christian. I was only Baptized once. At one point, some did suggest a second Baptism becausae I felt invalidated by my college experience and went through some turbulent times. Also i think in many cases, they like the converts to have the permission of their parents or wait until they are independent and living on their own.

I don’t focus on paraministries unless the material from the paraministries is endorsed and used by the church or school in all insturciton. I am referring to one time situations. If a situation is a continual tradition that is practiced on a regular basis, then I consider it part of the church life even if the actual ministry is outside the church. When it comes to radio and TV, if the material from the ministry is used as part of the instruction, then I include it with the church. If it’s mandatory, i consider it part of the church. If it’s a one-time situation or it’s voluntary and not required or only attended by a small group, then I consider it auxillary. Visits to the school were definitely endorsed by the church as a regular field trip for prospective students. What people do on their own time outside of church may or may not necessarily be endorsed by a church. A church may react possitively, neutrally, or if they do not support the ministry, they will definitely mention this to the person who brings it up. And with TV and radio, there are tunning knobs and power switches. We also have control over what we read on the internet as well as materials we purchase at book stores.

If there hadm’t been a lot of pressure to attend a particular college, I might not have even posted my comments. I do believe that God does call Christians to a higher standard than the general secular public. I definitely believe he calls leaders of ministry to a very high standard. The insturction is not only in reference to the Bible. That’s expected. But the leaders are supposed to apply what they learned and set the example for everyone else. If they have personal reasons that interfere, they need to step down. It shouldn’t require a major public scandal or a situation which is forced. Some mention crime. Crime must be reported to the civil authorities to be handled by the justice system. If the act is not “criminal”, but still affects the ministry, i don’t think ministers should bring their congregations through the mud or ruin the credibility of the institutions they lead. The actions depend on what has been done. In some situations a believer is condemned whereas the leader almost has no discipline or nothing is done. in some churches, action can be taken. In other situations, nothing happens through the church administration and unfortunately in some situations, the perpetrator is still in power or it becomes an ugly public church and legal battle that ruins the morals and credibility of not only the ministry involved, but the trust of all believers in other similar ministries which might use the materials from this ministry. It has a rippling effect.

I looked up History of the Bible and Bible Translations on wikpedia Encyclopedia. It’s an interesting website.
People forget that at one time in history, only the church and the aristocracy had access to the Bible. The commoners had to depend upon the church or state recognized clergy. Actually women and children didn’t read. People didn’t have access to the Bible unless they were members of the aristocracy. The access we have to the Bibles also was greatly influenced on the Printing Press which we can bless or curse depending on how we feel about particular contemporary translations. In this country, Bibles are easily accessible. The internet gives us the opportunity to find and order translations that may interest us if they are still in priint. We can also go to book stores or churches or publishers. God is going to hold me accountable for what I do or don’t do. I have no desire whatsoever to abandon my faith. The focus of my faith has to be on Jesus Christ and I have to remember that I too have messed up in life and I too need healing. If i didn’t have any problems, i wouldn’t need the forgiveness of Jesus Christ in the first place. I have to also remember that it is the Holy Spirit which convicts the individual. There are a lot of distractions and it’s very easy to get caught in them. I too want validity. I guess that’s what I want the most. Where is the source of this validity? This is the judgment which comes from God based on the Bible.

I don’t want to forget the European Reformation either. I gave out that website from Wikepdia Encyclopedia becasuae I felt it was interesting to read. i’m thankful for some of the religious Christian movemeents which occurred at the end of the 19th century and into the 20th century as well which had influence on later movements closer to my time.

God isn’t going to let me point fingers at anyone else at the Final Judgment. i am going to be held responsible for my own life. My redemption comes from his forgiveness and his atonement on the cross and the fact that he rose again. We think of buildings and physical assemblies. God has a different definition.

one of the reasons why many Christians purchase reference books, commentaries, Bible studies, and other reference materials is t6o acquire a better idea about how langauges translate as well as differences in cultures. Sometimes one language does not have a word with the same meaning to exactly match a term in another language. I don’t know about how many travel or speak to foreigners to travel to our country. Even in our country and other English speaking countries, we have dialects. And the same word may have more than one meaning or connotation. Also formal language is different from the daily vernacular we use on the street, not necessarily cussing, just common expressions. I’m not talking about bad offensive language. Sometmes even the spelling or pronunciation from one region to another may vary. I’m not talking about errors which are intentional in the text they are intent to deceive. I think many who translate want to get the best possible translation. In common languages, it may be easier. In some of the others, it may be more difficult.

I didn’t mean to use “curse” to imply foul language. i’m not referring to those words that get people in trouble by this reference. I did mean a feeling of anger and a word that would imply condemnation.

Paul, That’s a very good question. I don’t know exactly what God’s preserved Word was in 1610. I know what I believe about God’s Word today. Did God bless the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible, Bishop’s Bible, etc.? I really don’t know. Listen, do the English versions in use today agree? No. Do they disagree in passages with major doctrinal implications (for lack of a better way of putting it)? Yes. Do they come from different familes of manuscripts? Yes. Is God the author of this confusion? No. Is Satan attacking God’s Word? Yes. If Satan is attacking God’s Word, where’s the evidence of it? My belief is that it contained in the newer version which are based on the Catholic/Alexandrian family of manuscripts.
Bob, I don’t think there are 6,000 copies of the ORIGINAL N.T. manuscripts anywhere in existence today. There are manuscripts that are very, very old, but they are not the ORIGINALS. I don’t think anyone has seen the originals in almost 1900 years. (Just a guess.)

John,
I’m moving my next post to the KJV page on this site because of its length. I do this with some reservation. It appears that some of the language there is what I would choose to stay away from. I love an honest, civil discussion. It’s not about whose right or wrong. It’s about Him. He’s our goal.

EBR,

I’ve enjoyed your recent posts. I’ve watched and read what you have written in an effort to get to know you better. You seem to have a good heart. I’m looking forward to getting to know you more down the road. God Bless, Paul

John,
The original manuscripts have been copied many times. The copies themselves have been copied and translated many times. The result is we now have thousands of copies of books and large sections of the N.T. When we put all the copies together, we can see clearly what the entire N.T. looked like in the original.
The KJV- only belief has its origin in man and not Scripture. If the KJV were necessary for godliness, God has failed to keep His promise to give us everything we need in Scripture. The Scripture existed long before the KJV and if the KJV disappeared we would be no worse off.

God will hold us responsible in the Great judgement day. He will look at our hearts. Most people focus on outward appearances. This is especially true in our country just by the nature that we have so much access to public worship and can take so much for granted. We can even have a website like this. That’s the exception and not the rule. God can’t be fooled. I believe he will hold Christians accountable for their exposure and how they respond at the level of their knowledge. I definitely think he will hold those who ban or manipulate the Bible even if we don’t see the judgment we’d like on earth. God determines how long he will keep the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit who leads, convicts, and comfort. Throughout history, what happend when they tried to ban or manipulate the Bible? These were some of the greatest revivals. Also there were some exceptionally strong Christians. I don’t believe we have actually started the tribulation even if we may be heading towards the end times. I’m not going to start guessing names or dates. But I do think we have to be prepared. We have to try to avoid being distracted too.

I wrestle with what man does to Christianity. I wrestle with myself too cause I have made messes as well as others. I mentioned that I want to see justice. We’d like to see it in our legal system and we’d like to see it in our lifetime. Whether that happens or not is determined by God. If they escape it temporarily, eventually it will come, if not now, in the tribulation and Great Judgement. I don’t always understand why things happen the way they do. A lot of times actually I don’t. This is where and why we have to pray for the discernment of the Holy Spirit. This is why we have to focus on one day at a time. It’s not even just a matter in respect to where we worship but in secular areas as well. A few may be fortunate to participate in salaried full-time Christian service or may be able to have their whole lives around other Christians. Many have to deal with the secular world after all. This is where our lives are supposed to be a light. It may not be in preaching, but in the dispensention of gifts. We think of Gifts in terms of Acts and what goes on in the church. But gifts also include how we treat others outside of the church. The apostles and disciples had secular occupations and they were varied. They came from different backgrounds. In the Old Testament there were a lineage of ordained priests in respect for occupations. It was passed down the family line. That changed with the New Testament.

Have I had problems now and then. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t have any need to write any posts. I wish I didn’t need to write any posts. I am thankful also for those Christians who didn’t have to go through what some of us have. God ordered us to pray for those who hurt us. Even Christ forgave the people who crucified him. He gave forgiveness to those who abandoned him or misunderstood his mijistry. He revealed himself. He had patience we don’t. I know I don’t. When we hit those periods in our life, we have to realize what they are and find some means to change our focus, including reading the scripture, praying, having fellowship with other Christians, and listening to music and reading books. We have to surrender our frustrations to God about others and just concentrate about our own lives and pray that we can serve God how he wants. That is so hard. It doesn’t come naturally at all. But again, this is just where we need the working of the Holy Spirit for healing.

Do not assume all IFB churches are the same. I’m sure the same can be said of any denomination & anyone whos had a bad experience! but not once have I read here that satan could be using this info to discourage people from theyre true home (church). people take things the wrong way all the time! this is just one persons perspective! its like me saying “all women are the same”…

I think that Romans 13 does talk about our civic duty to follow the rules of our government as best we can, especially in many instances in this country, where we can much easier than in other parts of the world. I’m not convinced that becoming a Christian gives us total freedom to abondon our laws but when possible to try to work within that context. There are times in anyone’s life, where an individual may need to take “time out” and look inwards and also if there are problems change. Sometimes a sin may affect the way we might serve in the future and other times, it’s just a temporary setback. A minister needs to help rebuild lives that are not perfectly fit puzzles and even lives where parts of the puzzle are missing altogether. Financial support is a different matter. A church does not necessarily have to financially support a Christian who may be involved in ministries a body of believers does not support. I do think a person or church has to becareful not to tear down everything. If a Christian is voluntarily part of the body, a Christian may be obligated to follow the practices of a particular body of believers. If a Christian leaves, especially if one leaves quietly or without a scandal, I don’t see any reason for the practice of blacklisting. If a person asks for financial support, a church body can just say “no.” But I’m not sure a church body can entirely void the person’s previous life. Nor do I think they should. At best, I think a church can just say they don’t financially support a particular ministry. Leave it at that. Sometimes we can vote about leaders. In other situations, one may have to leave. But even there, new opportunities exist. In situations where sin has become public rather than private, sometimes the method or place for service becomes restricted for a period of time, sometimes even permanently.

We were in an IB church in Australia for nine years. Yeah, like many people here say, there are many wonderful people there. However we found that this church prides itself very highly on being more scriptural than all other churches. When I wanted to compare some of their teachings to the Bible and talk to them about it, we were ejected from the church by the Pastor.
It wasn’t done biblically though, rather the Pastor told me privately that I had to leave the church but publicly told the congregation I had decided to leave! All the people at the church know the disparity in our stories, but are content to let us be kicked out under cover of darkness for wanting to discuss some doctrinal issues. More detail on the issues at ianparkinson.com

Ali K.
How would you know what someone’s true home church was?

Paul, thanks for the comment about civility. I agree with you. If we can’t be civil with those we disagree with, we probably wouldn’t be able to be civil with anyone.
And Bob, I disagree with you about the originals. I don’t anyone, anywhere in the world today has a copy of the originals that were penned.

Many churches have term limits for their pastors. A new inexperienced seminary graduate or an intirim pastor may have a shorter term. Many times these terms can be renewed when there is a match. Sometimes they can be renewed indefinitely if everyone in a congregation or parish is very happy with the situation. In other churches they can take votes according to established procedures. A lot of times these votes are done by secret ballot too. I’m not referring to these situations. I sometimes wonder with new graduates if they might be able to reassign duties but that may or may not be an option. These are not the churches or situations that I am referring to in my posts.

I am referring to situations where a leader is almost unremoveable, irregardless of theology or conduct. I’m talking about situations involving votes by hands. I’m talking about situations where any opposition will be squelched before any vote ever takes place. I am talking about situations where the installation of a leader is almost guaranteed as long as the person can preach.

In many situations, if the reason for leaving is not due to crime or major differences in theology not specified at the time of interview, or contrary to the time of the interview, members need to realize there are living expenses involved as well as the adjustment in moving and other aspects of family life. I don’t think that this should be the first resort and also there should be transitional time. I don’t think it’s right just to throw somebody outside on the street with no shelter, job, food, healthcare, or leave a family homeless even if there is a disagreement unless it is caused by criminal conduct. Sometimes there is just a personality of perhaps some type of disagreement in the way somebody carries things out, but it’s not criminal and it’s not a theological issue. Sometimes it takes the entire congregation, not just an individual. There may also be other reasons ministers leave which have nothing to do with dissatisfaction or problems.

I want to make people aware of a dictator, nutcase pastor you must avoid. He is proud, arragant, slick, suave, mean, explosive with a short fuse, and most everything this site talkes about. This puffed up with pride, brutish lording pastor is named Dr. Gerald MCKelroy, pastor of the Bellmead Calvary Baptist Church, of Waco, Texas. (A side note, do you remember any other cult leaders that came from Waco, Texas?) Here is the church website http://www.bellmeadcalvary.org/. You must avoid this nut case at all costs. Also avoid his clone and assistant Quinton Thompson. These two extremists are a disgrace to our Lord Jesus Christ. Pastor Gerald MCKelroy embezzled thousands of dollars from his former church in Oregon on his lavish salary and bennys, for his lavish lifestyle. No one was allowed to know his salary. Thus, he was able to buy lavish horse barns, horses, horse tac, lavish carriages, lavish motorcylces, trucks, lavish boats, 4000 square foot custom built home with acres, and large, lavish motor homes. The man needs to answer how he could afford such lavish items. I’ll tell you how, he bilked the church and people out of millions in the time he was in Oregon. And it disgusted many people how he would ultra critisize his wife and kids in front of anyone, and gossip about church members to other church members. And oppose church members against each other quareling. And he publically said he will “cut their heads off” if anyone opposed him, or tried to get involved in looking into his finances. Listen to some of his sermons online. You’ll agree.

Read through this website and you will find that it’s a blue print of Dr. Gerald MCKelroy, a graduate of Hyles Anderson College.

I am proud to be a godly independent Baptist at a godly independent Baptist church, and it sours my stomach that there are such puffed up, caustic, brutish independent baptist churches out there. Folks, not all independent baptist churches should be lumped together with the extreme, cultic, caustic ultra IFB churches. There are extreme nutcases in all walkes of life. Unfortunately, there are bad IFB churches too.

Im sorry for any of you that you have had a bad experience with Baptist people or churches. I admire all of you that you got out of those situations that you were in but I as a Baptist Preacher have not in anyway judged any of Gods children for any of their descisions, I belive and teach out of the Bible, I choose to use The King James Bible that was what i grew up listening to in a Methodist church and thats what i am familiar with. I learned at a young age that it doest matter where or what kind of church you attend there are going to be bad apples its like children in school there will always be some that will think they are better than others and some that will shun you for what you do or belive. I am yet a young man at age 28 and hopefully have many years to live and learn and teach others. One thing that i would like all to remember, That a unrully tongue can prais God and curse man that was created in the likness of God but this should not be so Thank you all for your time and GOD BLESS YOU no matter what denomination you are or what bible you read God still loves you

I left an IFB KJO church several years ago where the pastor was the owner of the church building and the land it sat on. He was the money counter, the song leader, the primary soloist, and he and his wife were the church board. If you had any concerns about anything doctrinal, you were considered out of line if you questioned him. It was his way or the highway, despite God’s rules about this kind of thing in Titus 1. This man bashed all other churches and anything/anyone else that was not KJO or IFB. His church what the only real church in town. Sadly, he has run off several people and families since I left, and some of these people have gone back to living like the unsaved. I only hope they do not blame God for what this hireling did.

Thank you for putting up this site!

John,

When people embrace the obviously false idea of inspired bible translation, that embracing indicates a foundational rejection of the original words God preserved.

The original words are preserved in aggregate, as Bob alludes to. Psalms 12:6 Refer to “God’s Words”, not a translator’s! Since God is perfect, so, as his “own words” they don’t need further “refining” by a translator or anyone else! So this business about perfect translations is near-blasphemous!

God gets it right the 1st time. So we but need to learn “His Words”, which are indeed perfectly preserved in aggregate, and because in “aggregrate”, testable, not just in one manuscript, but in them all, including the textus receptus.

As Christ Himself said “My words shall not pass away” these (words) were not spoken in english. So the (words) that are His, are “NOT” in english. You kjver’s still awake? It’s ok to translate, so long as you compare the translation to the Words God preserved, since only those words will never pass away.

I wish I could claim credit for writing the above, but except for a few embellishments of my own, I picked this up from “The KJV Only Debate Blog” but it expresses my opinion of the matter perfectly.

Kjver’s love your translation, preach from it, follow it, believe it it God’s Word in 17th century english. But whatever you do don’t make the mistake of calling it God’s only preserved word in english. In other words don’t hold an exclusive-allegiance-to-one-revision-of-one-edition-of-one-17th century-anglican-translation-of-the-bible-into-elizabethan-english-ism.

Because He Lives,
Greg

Has anyone heard of the preach Phil Kidd??
He really is a good preacher, but there are a LOT of things wrong with what he teaches. He actually seems to have lightened up in the past few years, but when I was little and went to the Independent Baptist church I did, he was almost crazy. And so was my pastor. You have no idea what went on in that church. It was ridiculous and continued to get worse every service.
And my roommate used to go to Pensacola Christian as did many of my other friends. Along with Clearwater Christian, Crown, Hyles-Anderson, and Liberty University (which is actually one of the more liberal schools).
The things Christianity and religion altogether has come to is just absurd. The leaders and blind followers have allowed it to become a monstrous heartache for most, not to mention an excuse to slaughter humans of opposing views. That goes for religion as a whole.

Amanda,

I’ve never heard of Phil Kidd, and I don’t know how familiar you are with this site, but it sounds like you’ve been damaged by an abusive IFB church. Believe me most of us hear have similar tales.

Your final paragraph concerns me though. It sounds as though you may be prepared to throw the baby out with the bathwater, please don’t! There are wonderful churches all over this country, that do a great work and minister to hurting hearts just like yours. Our God is wonderful, and yes men and women will be held responsible for harmful things they have done to others.

Please continue to seek after God with your whole heart, read His Word in a good translation, and I am confident He will restore you and your faith.

In Christ,
Greg

This site is such a blessing! Thank you bro for putting it up…the dogs at my old church (Lighthouse Baptist, San Diego) would probably think we’re communing and doing the work of devils here in posting on this site…they messed me up pretty bad as well.

You guys are right…it’s a priesthood of the believer and we should all be guided by the book and the holy spirit but these dogs turn you into twice the child of satan that they are…After 5 years of blind obedience and brainwashing the dogs still think I’m not saved…the director of the bible institute actually had me walk down the isle again for salvation…after 5 years of being in the church or doing ministry over 30 hours a week!…can you believe that? the dog probably still doubts i’m saved.

Anyway, doesn’t the bible somewhere tells us to call them by name? I don’t have a problem naming some of the Dogs and Jesuit Priests at my old church…or is that ‘having a bad spirit’?

If it werent’ for sites like this I would think they are right…that i’m just some rebellious child of satan that won’t submit to the all knowing, all powerful ‘man of God’ who talks to God (Ex Cathedra)

The jerks not only left me messed up but defrauded me financially on top of that over $100 grand…and they still call me a devil!

Go figure!

Hey Allen,

Yes friend you have found a site that will minister to your hurting soul.

I can see that you have been hurt badly after your years of dedicated service. One thing I would reccomend is to work through your anger and pain and work toward forgiveness for those that have hurt you. If you think about it the people in charge are just regurgitating the things that they have been taught. Its kinda like the kid that grows up in an abusive household, often times he grows up to be an abuser himself, that’s all he knows!

Let me say I can relate to the financial part as well, they didn’t get me for as much as they got you for, yet I still felt very taken advantage of. As I started to study about tithing and giving (much good info on this site) I began to get God’s real message on giving and so the last couple of years there I started to direct my money to missionary efforts instead of the “Storehouse” oh my, some folks have got alot of explaining to do when they see God face to face.

Friend God bless you, don’t give up on the Lord, He is faithful and just. My last comment reminds me that I too will stand before a just God and I will also be judged for the things I have done in this body.

Keep on keeping on for Christ. I would be interested to hear more of your story when you’re up for it.

God Bless,
Greg

I think this is ridiculous to label all independants as such you have. Independant Baptist churches go all the way back to the beginning since the church was established. WE are bible believing christians that follow the word of God and for people today to have comfort in their sins is the whole problem today with churches. The King James Bible is Clear on the Wording and it hasnt been reproduced like all the other bibles we now have. ever tried to drink a glass of wine with water in it? I know Catholics who have been saved by reading romans. I can attest to the king james because its very accurate. For instance, the NIV has several verses and names and the blood taken out of it. its watered down and the Word of God is what judges people. When someone feels attacked at their sin, they attack the church instead of recognizing their wickedness and repenting. I dont know many pastors who are abusive or controlling. The pastor is to be a spiritual advisor only!! he is to give advice based on Gods word, and that is it! ive been to several churches and they look more like the world than a holy house of God. Bringing in Rock bands, and taking out the hYmnals and not preaching the word of God. but how can they hear without a preacher;. Look up the word Preach and tell me what it says, to raise your voice. AS christians we are to rebuke sin where ever it is.most churches these days dont preach sin and separation. How do you reach the lost sinner if you look just like him??? hes not going to see anything different in you to change his ways. we are an example and if people nowadays get offended. well tough!!! its called Conviction!!!

Mark,
No one here is labeling all independents. I think we all agree that there are some good fundamental baptist churches.
What we are pointing out, is the false teaching and the cultish way in which many of these churches operate. They insist, for example, on using the King James translation. These churches tend to be authoritarian and use authority in a carnal and unbiblical manner. They raise their traditions to the level of Bible doctrine thus nullifying the rightful place of the Word of God. They tend to be very legalistic ( keeping rules that focus on outward appearance without addressing the heart). All this adds up to a “form of religion”. Independent Fundamental Baptists haven’t proved to to be very good at dealing with sin in their churches. Although, they have become experts at covering it up. Clean up your own mess, then come and help me with mine.

Mark,

1) In Jude verse 25, the NIV says that God gets glory “through Jesus Christ our Lord.” The KJV leaves this phrase out.

2) In Acts 4:25, the KJV says that God spoke through the mouth of David. The NIV says that God “spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of David.” The KJV leaves out the Holy Spirit.

3) In Acts 16:7 the KJV says, “the Spirit suffered them not.” The NIV says, “the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.” “Of Jesus” is left out of the KJV.

4) In Philippians 1:14, “of God” is left out of the KJV. The NIV says the “word of God.” The KJV simply says “word.”

5) In Colossians 2:9, the KJV says “in Him.” The NIV says “in Christ”

To force people to conform to one translation of the bible is an added or extra-biblical doctrine which the bible does not teach, to do so is a grievous error.

In Christ,
Greg

ok…so, this sure sounds very odd to me. We attend a IFB church and have for awhile now. Yes, they believe you should really only use the KJV becuause that way everyone is on the same thing, due to EVERYONE having their own bible out there now. But there is no dress code… I wear jeans and a t shirt even. There is no condemnation, etc. Everything is scriptually based. Our church is loving. Always gives GOD the glory when people are saved. Our pastor even prays in at the beginning of every service for God to hid him behind the cross, for no one to see him, but Jesus etc… Our church is growing astronomically and always has. A lot of these steriotypes Ive been reading about IFB churches, I have NEVER seen at our church. Women cut their hair, there are men with long hair- my son even- no one bats an eye about who is wearing what, etc. The focus is on Jesus.

Music?! Um, my sunday school even has a ROCK BAND. We are constantly chatting about how great this or that song on the Christian radio stations are, etc. (including those stated IFB supposedly is against listed above.)

Also, the church doesnt just focus on getting people “saved” and then leaving them like so many Ive come across b/f They help you every step of the way. I have tried many, MANY different denimonations and they each had their own weird “quircks”…. Our IFB church seems much more “NON denominational” than any church Ive tried that called themselves that.

Now, I did know a woman who sais she went to a “IFB church” once…she wore only dresses and skirts, never cut her hair, her husband RULED her, and they even lost their 1st baby during childbirth because they believed C-Sections were WRONG…they let their baby die instead of allowing the emergency Csection… THAT, that maybe a CULT, yes… BUT They IFB church I am at now…it is NOTHING like that at all as I stated…

I believe there are pastors overtaken by sin, greed, etc, in EVERY denomination, that end up hurting people by trying to bend the truth with their own beliefs… BUT not just “IFB” churches…and not all of them… I think that by saying the “IFB churches” are like that, you are scaring people away for salvation in general…

DEAR GREG:

the KJV was around waaaaaayyyyy BEFORE the NIV…so it can not leave anything “OUT”….the NIV..ADDS words that were not originally THERE…(yes, it can be argued that its for better understanding) Also, as Mark419 stated, there are things MISSING from the NIV…(which again, came AFTER the KJV)… there are LITERALLY whole verses and chapters in the KJV MISSING from the NIV… once I compared the 2 and saw that myself, the truth was obvious to me that I was missing out by only using the NIV. If we are to take and believe the WHOLE bible as God-breathed fact…then why does the NIV remove stuff and see it as ok? How do you explain that?

Christine,

First off its sounds like you are in a very unique IFB church, and it sounds like a very good church, so praise the Lord for that. You are also right that the KJV translation is much older than the NIV translation, and by the way the KJV is a very good translation. What folks sometimes get confused about is the work of translation. The manuscripts that are used to translate the NIV are hundreds of years older than the manuscripts used to translate the KJV. When the catholic priest (Erasmus) put together the greek new testament that the KJV translators used to give us the KJV they only had about (6) manuscripts, modern translators have thousands of manuscripts, some going all the way back to the 3rd century. The manuscripts used to translate the KJV go back no further than the 10th century. So many people believe that the older manuscripts are better, because they are closer to when the events actually happened.

There are only minor differences in the reading of any “good” translatiion and there are no major doctrinal differneces. I prefer to study and read from the newer translations because I can understand them alot better than the KJV.

Hope I’ve been able to answer your questions, and God bless you as you pursue His will in your life.

In Christ,
Greg

Christine,
I am glad that you are in a good IFB church. I know there are good ones out there, people only need to be careful about some of the bad ones. I personally know about the cult-like characteristics in some of these churches. One such IFB church helped split-up my marraige, and now my wife is lost in legalism.
There is nothing wrong with the King James version of the Bible. I believe it is a fine translation. However, a translation is all that it is. The problem I have, is with people who say that” the KJV is something more than a translation of the Bible, so it should be the only one we use”. There is a lot that can be said about why the newer translations are better in some ways, but I would just point out that God never told anyone to use the King James version. It is a fine translation I believe, but that is all. Just don’t make a “new teaching” by insisting that the KJV is the gold standard for Bible translations. By “new teaching” I mean adding to Scripture.

Christine: the KJV is a TRANSLATION of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. Since the time of the TRANSLATION of 1611, many and more reliable, manuscripts have been discovered that greatly add to the task of modern TRANSLATIONS. The KJV is God’s Word as much as the NIV or NASB is God’s Word. Have you ever read the translator’s preface to the KJV? In it, they admit they are mere TRANSLATORS, doing their job as best as they can, but not perfectly as no one is perfect.

Which whole chapters and verses are missing from the NIV? One could just as well say they were erroneously added by the KJV translators. When you start with the presumption that the KJV is the only inerrant translation and any deviation from it is a “perversion”, you are assuming something that God never said or intended. Only the original manuscripts – those actually written by Paul, Mark, etc. – are without error. Every other version of the Bible we have has some small errors or inconsistencies that have built up over the last few thousand years of Bible history through manual copying and translation. However, God is faithful and good and we can tell for certainty that 98% of what we have, both Old and New Testaments, is what the original writers intended to write.

Christine, come out of the brain-washed KJVO cult.

Read James White’s “The KJV Only Controversy”.

A friend wrote this (link below) This say really well!

Leaning In
This comes from the finding-the-truth-in-strange-places department of my life. If you want to know why God often speaks to us in a still small voice, I know of no better explanation than this, by a chef and former NFL football player:

If you want your kids to listen to you, don’t yell at them. Whisper. Make them lean in. My kids taught me that and I do it with adults now.
Mario Batali, in Esquire

Great advice for parents! Even better for us to understand why God doesn’t scream his plan and purpose into our lives. It’s an invitation not a demand! Yes, it takes a bit to learn to listen to that voice and give it the place in your life that it deserves, but what he wants most is for us to lean in and enjoy him, not just get his wisdom.

My sheep know my voice, Jesus said. It’s not about hearing first; it’s always about relationship!

http://lifestream.org/blog/2010/10/21/leaning-in/

Pam,

Jesus responded to the cries of those with physical ailments including leprosy, persecutors such as the Apostle Paul; members of the Pharisees including Nicodemus; women and children, tax collectors, the skeptical Thomas, the denying Peter, and basically anyone who came to him for help. When you feel discouraged, just remember this. I love to read John 17. I love to read any scripture which refers to either the parables of the Lost Sheep or Prodigal Son. He deals with us at the time and the place we come to him. He asks us to come to him with our burdens and also to let him direct us.

I know others love to take a walk in nature and/or listen to music. He’s not comparing us to anyone, but it’s easy for individuals to compare themselves to others just by human nature.

I love the song from the musical, Walk On. It starts … When you walk through a storm, keep your head upu high… The Musical is Carousel. The song is called Walk On. Another song I really love is Climb Every Mountain, from the Musical, The Sound of Music.

Pam,

I struggle myself with expectations others have set for me in addition to expectations and dreams I have had for myself whether or not they were realistic then or can be pursued now. I struggle with an appetite that worked when I was a youth and was easily able to do a whole lot of physical excercise to keep up with burning the extra calories. Well I’m mid-age, not quite a senior citizen yet, and things have changed. i can’t meet those demands. I have to rely on the therapeutic DVDs rather than the gymnastic coaches and ballet teachers.
I should add those danceaerobic instructors who are in outstanding physical condition whereas a pushup would be a major accomplishment for me. My older sister had sent me some fitness DVDs and t hen I found some of my own that met my current health situation which restricts what I can do. I still am working on t he motivation aspect now that I actually have the treadmill. I know people have lost a lot of weight just using the treadmill. I have an excercise bike too.

Sometimes things change throughout our lives and we can’t fulfill what others hoped for us or what we hoped for ourselves whether or not these things were realistic or scriptural or not. We can only look to God to work with us for what we are now and pray and try to follow his word. I love the song Day by Day from the musical, Godspell. I love the song, By My Side too from the same musical. God accepts us for who we are.

When I feel really down, I sometimes listen to Psalms also. I read them in the Bible. I also have a DVD of psalms sung to music accompanied by acoustic guitar. I also love to listen to the lyrics of traditional hymns. Sometimes I just turn the lights off and close my eyes. I do listen to contemporary music. Music is a way I destress myself. So is dance.

I cried when I watched the movie, Footloose cause I understood both sides of the conflict. I identified with that movie very much. I also understand why ministers are very concerned and sometimes forbid dance, but I don’t hold that conviction anymore to that degree anyway.

I have no objection about secular dance performances such as the Nutcracker ballet at Christmas. I love classical ballet although I was taking gymnastics by the time my teachers offered toe pointe. I have seen more traditional ballet which is either performed by more traditional ballet conservatories or gymnasts and figure skaters as well as Christian ballet companiees who minister with Biblical themes. I think this is more what I had in mind.

Footlose was a very well made movie but after watching Ariel, by the end of the movie, I understood the minister’s point of view who was the father in that movie. She gave him every reason to be concerned and forbid dance.

I think dance, like art and music are mediums and can be done in ways that are glorifying to God or ways that are seedy and invite sin. i think if somebody is thinking about studying dance, one should learn a lot about the beliefs and values of the instructors at any particular school or guild or theater prior to taking clcasses. It’s often necessary to take classes so the instructors can observe the habits prior to a major performance. It’s not always enough just to have talent. They want to see technique, endurance, and ability to follow instructions as well as creativity. I realize some are able to learn by watching movies or TV though. I did take dance when I was a child. There were four years when I stopped and then I resumed. I can understand restrictions with dance. i think they should be upfront and provide restrictions. I know when i am seeing dance because i had instructions as a child. I would rather the preachers define Christian choreography as a restricted from of dance than to entirely forbid dance. I can understand restricted dance in respect to ballet and gymnastics. I took ballet, tap, and jazz. I can understand concnern about costumes also. But parents and students need to tell their iinsturctors when they have those convictions.

Choreography is defined as the arrangement of dance movements in dictionaries I have used. That includes definitely the hands and the feet and often the entire body since posture is very important as is eye contact.
In respect to public theatrical performances, those attract local critics. Also if you have members of the arts coummunity who are professional performers who probably do have a dance background, it looks very hypocritical to anyone with a dance background when a particular institution forbids dance and replaces it with what they call “Christian choreography.”

Now I have no objection to Christian choreography in the sense that it keeps dance more traditional and modest so it does not resemble sexual forplay. I think that’s the goal they are trying to accomplish. A set of chaperones and adult supervision, and maybe even chaperoned buses and carpooling may help to prevent certain types of less desired behavior from occuring in church or school settings.

Privately, parents need to know the attitudes of the arts instructors prior to sending their children to classes. This is the same for people who are adults who are considering taking classes on their own as well as those enrolled in dance aerobic programs at fitness centers and even and definitely modeling school. It’s important to enroll with teachers who not only know the beliefs and values of the families they are teaching, but those who will respect concerns about dance, costumes, and makeup, even acting on the stage.
Some do. Others don’t. This is extremely important in the selection of any college or unnivrsity or perhaps even some type of dance group on the high school level or a private group. Dance, music, and arts are mediums. I don’t see these same colleges and universities prohibiting music or art as a whole although they restrict it. I think the same approach could be taken for dance.

I have a question for everyone that is so negative toward the IFB…what exactly did you want to do that you couldn’t do? Did you want to dress and look like the world? go to the movies and smoke and drink and listen to christian rock music? I am not really sure what hurt you so badly……why the anger in the teachings of the church to stay away from the world and as the bible tells us “all appearance of evil” I am not really clear on how you seem to be able to grow spiritually by getting away from the IFB….when they seem to be guiding you in the right direction….of course that is assuming that they are telling you to spend time reading the bible for yourself….some of these cases seem to be extreme and that is unfortunate. I have not experienced some of that, but I do relate to some of it. As far as the “horror” stories of not listening…those are not probably scare tactics, but actual warnings….trying to keep you safe…but it’s true, everyone has to learn for themselves. But, how can you condemn pastors for preaching the truth of the word of God. I think that you should be taking a look at the “liberal” preachers that say you can do whatever you want without consequences (because there are consequences for our actions). Sure, you can do what ever you want. Most of this sounds like people that were looking at the world and wanted to participate. I know people on both sides of the fence. I know there are fakes on both sides, but just because someone is coming to the IFB and faking it doesn’t mean that is the way the church is teaching them….you have the same fakes on the other side….BUT….maybe it’s OK there…so that’s the difference? I don’t know. I personally am sick of this “EVERYTHING GOES” teaching that’s going on today and sucking in more and more people. And it truly is destroying lives….PRAISE God for the Men and Women that stand up for the Gospel and don’t water it down……as long as it is written in God’s word then it is truth. Calling these preachers Pharasees is just plain crazy……..well, maybe your experience was extreme. I read most of them but not all. I just know that the bible talks about in the last days people will not be able to handle sound doctrine and will look for a tickling of their ears……or just whatever makes them feel good. Well, in my opinion you are JUDGING the IFB …so you are just as bad.

Jamie,

Your letter was so full of grace and understanding I just don’t understand how anyone would not want to worhip with you. So much sweetness and charm and longsuffering to others that are not on the same blessed spiritual plane as you. Thank you so much for coming down to our lowly level if only for this brief time.

Greg

One of the characteristics of a cult is that the people do not handle criticism well. Rather than deal with the issue that is raised, they will often attack the person who is bringing a critique. Instead of considering the critique in a biblical manner, you will see them hitting back with things like, ” you are worldly”, “you don’t like good preaching”, or ” you just want to live like the world”. It is unfortunate when people stop thinking in a way that is independent of the group.

Usually, the groups that claim to ban dance are specifically complaining about what is called “close” or “pair” dancing, not necessarily all forms of dance. The bans or restrictions are emphasized because the organizations want to discourage what encourages or resembles sexual forplay in that the hands touch private parts of the body or the body slides together in the movements. I can understand an outright ban or a restriction in this type of activity at group functions although i am not opposed to it myself. If it is tolerated, leaders can demonstrate what is acceptable prior to opening the dance floor.

Calisthenics in itself is not dancing. Marching itself is not dancing. Carrying a flag or decorative rifle or school banner in a parade is not necessarily dancing. Screaming and holding pom poms is not necessarily dancing.

When music is added and the movements become rhythmic and contain fancy footwork, graceful balletic arm movements, balancing poses, twirls, spins, acrobats, mounts, leaps, and are done in a routine either individuially or as a group in precision, then it becomes dance. This also includes holding streamers, batons, umbrellas, pom poms, and even balls. Even gymnastics which is a sport has a balletic component in its floor=ex and balance beam routines. There are also traditional folk dances where only the hands touch and the body really doesn’t come in close contact, but while these dances may not be seductive, they are not necessarily Christian either. I have no opposition to “Christian choreography” where the dances are done to glorify God. I have no opposition to classical toepoint or waltzes. If an organization has what I described in this paragraph, then they have dance. If they ban dance and have these examples of dance, it is confusing to everyone and also looks hypocritical to anyone who has any background in recognizing or studying dance. I think it would be more honest to restrict dance. If dance is totally forbidden, then it should include a ban on all kinds of dance.

A lot of people like to listen to what is called “easy listening” on the radio. This contains music that’s soft and mellow but it also includes genres such as rock-n-roll, rhythm and blues, jazz, and country western as well as occasional opera and musicals, even patriotic music and Christian music. It includes other genres as well. People don’t always realize what they are listening to if the music is not from their time, especially if it’s more than 50 years old.

Actually there wasn’t a ban on secular music because they did play music from some of the very popular well loved musicals in their concerts.

Instrumentation just means that the music does not have the lyrics included, but if it’s rock with the lyrics, it’s still rock without the lyrics. The same is true for secular music.

Remember, in the secular world, money becomes a major issue. The question is not what the viewers believe necessarily but how much money a particular artist can make for a production company with sales. The same is true for TV programming. When I was young, a cable channel had 15 channels. Now we have over 300 and in some systems, over 1,000. I think one can find what’s appropriate according to one’s beliefs and values. We also have CD boomboxes where we can go and listen to what we like. And now they came out with zappers.
There is also a switch to turn the TV or radio on or off. The same is true for the computer and internet. And there are blocks for the internet.

Personally, I do wish that I had an option about whether or not I wanted to watch previews on DVDs. I like the ones that have them separated as special features as opposed to the DVDs where one has to watch them just to get to the selection mode. Sometimes I want to see trailers. And sometimes i don’t. A good family movie can be preceeded by a trailer a parent might not want a child to see.

I do think we have a lot more choices. But organizations need to be consistent with their policies. If they do have outright bans, they need to make sure that the organizations are actually following the regulations with the bans. If not, maybe it’s time to review and modify the policies so they will be consistent with their preaching.

If we just want to do what we please, why would we go to church in the first place? Why would we stay? There are other places where people can socialize if they want no restrictions? If we want to just hear what we want to hear, that’s very easy to do also and one doesn’t need church to do that either. It’s true one can find extremists in fundamentalism as well as extremism on the liberal. it’s true that there are people who are crazy almost everywhere and that almost every organization that has humans has one.

There was a time in society when many did go to church. Also there was a time in society where the person who didn’t go to church was the exception and no t the rule. That’s changed. Now it’s voluntary. Also people move around today more than they did in the previous generation. Attendance and membership are voluntary for adults. A person might visit church for a special occasion. I am not talking about the person who goes once or twice a year for holidays or a special occasion or party. i am talking about people who attend or are members on a more regular basis. If people go to church when it’s no t required, I believe that they are seeking. This also includes those who go to smaller Bible Studies. This would also include people who study the Bible in the privacy of their homes or a library, etc…

Actually I do believe many do want guidance. They want to make sense of the world. They want to praise. They do want to fellowship with others sho share their beliefs and views. They want to reach out to others. Many who are parents or grandparents understand that there is a need for correction. Any athlete who is successful understands there is a need for correction. I’m not convinced we’re asking for a society that has no correction. I do believe correction can be done in a way that’s constructive and brings hope and encouragement and growth. It’s also correction that’s universally practiced within a group. In what we call “gray areas”, while i am not as strict as i was in the past when I did attend an IFB church, i still do believe that there are principles in the New Testament that guide what we do in thought and action. Church is not the only place we have restrictions. We have restrictions at schools, homes, and in other public areas of our lives. Children might not always want correction but I even think children u nderstand the need for correction and intervention. I do believe there is a difference between criticism done in concern and humility and in respect over criticism done in a bullying manner or exclusive way that shuts out any creativity. on the other hand, i grew up when everything was being questioned. I’m not convinced either that the absence of criticism really fosters creativity either. We think of discipline in a negative way. It do esn’t have to be negative. And it can be done in a very positive way with a good teacher or coach.
What is the focus of the criticism. In the Christian life, it’s supposed to be God. Sometimes though some situations occur where a single person seems to be the source3 of criticism and where one person holds oneself more esteemed than others and forgets one is answering to even a higher power. If a person is in a position where one cannot ask questions or freely express one’s opinion without fearing ridicule or excommunication in some form or another or even bullying, then I have some question whether that person is truly independent and i’ve noticed in some situations that while a congregation may claim to be independent, if the person has to answer to a higher human authority such as a leader of a school, then that congregation is not really independent if all the converts are pushed to attend a few specific schools at the exclusion of others. That person is just answering to others trained to make sure that everyone thinks and acts the same way and the one who dares deviate is subject to severe consenquences. This would include members of the board who are also students as well as deacons, elders, and other ministers and lay personnel within a church and perhaps a faculty or administration of a school. it’s assured that everything will reamin the same and that no other dialogue will or can exist. That’s not how we define “independence.” 44

A show is a place we go for entertainment for a shoft period of time, maybe an hour or two. It might be a play or concert or dance performance, perhaps even a sport. When it ends, we leave and go on with our lives.
There are lights. There is music. Sometimes there is dance. There is often a story. Often it hopefully ends in a curtain call and applause. in sports, we hope to see the atheltes of our choice win or at least give the game or their event their best performance. Then the event ends. We go on to our private lives. They go off the stage.

i think we expect something different with our worship service though in the pastors and staff. The saem is true for a college or m ission board or even a congregation. Should we expect t his from our civilian authorities or celebrities? Probably. Should we expect this of our civilian teachers? Probably. But we do expect this in the people who are our teachers especially in the church and at a higher standard. We don’t just expect preaching or storytelling but we expect the lives of those we evmulate to not only preach and provide an example, but to be people we can honor and look to for advice. We expect these leaders to live the Bible they preach and teach. We don’t expect it to end after the service. We expect this for life or at least the time that they are in power in a specific congregation, mission board, college or university, social outreach, or another venue. We don’t want to just see preaching. We need to see a reason why the suggestions work. We want these people to be led by God. So we expect consistency, not just a staged performance. I realize entertainment exists within the church. It’s forcus should not just be for feeling good or having a great time but for instruction. An athlete seeks a coach that has a proven technique rather than an amateur. An athlete is concerned about safety and the maintenance of the equipment. An athlete wants to see proven results. If the coach has proven mastery, the athlete doesn’t follow just cause it’s a command, but because the athlete sees the coaching is genuine in a way that promotes the athlete. Thes same may be true for a performer. In secular entertainment, the focus is not necessarily on God. in Christianity, it’s supposed to be on God and the Bible. It’s also supposed to be a relationship. I do like radio and TV but over years, do we have a sermon or some type of theatrical production? We have to watch the leaders not only when they perform at the pulpit or in the choir or some public venue where they are being recorded, but also in their regular lives off the stage. We want a leader who connects with the people. We don’t want that connection to stop after the performance whereas in a theatrical production and sometimes even in sports, it does. The same migiht be true for a cultural performance. i’m not saying performances are bad. I’m just saying that we don’t want our preaching to be nothing more than a public performance with all the technology recording the show.

if there is anything i have learned in being in this type of church my whole life, its that if someone does not believe like us they are outcast. Anyone that goes or did go to IFB can agree with me on that. If a family leaves the church they leave because ” they are dropping thier standards and cant handle the preaching”. Not because they are tired of all the judging and not being involved because of the simple fact of the women in the family wear pants All who0 read this knows this is true. If a family never gets involved they are ridiculed, if they never sing or wana help its because they are backsliders, If they never give a testimoy its because “apearently God isnt doing anything in thier lives they wana share”. testmoniy time has become brag on me time. Prayer request has become who can tell the worst story or has more poeple they pray for a chance to be heard. These things are not right. The focus has been taken of God and put on standards works and who can out do who. My words are strong but anyone that goes to IFB churches can tell you its true. We have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank, and yes give to missions, but do nothing for our community accept visitaion on one night of the week. THIS IS NOT BIBLE. We were put on the earth to do two things. Praise GOD and reach others, but mostly we worship our works and give God the praisee when something good happens but when something bad happens its a “trail”. It may be a trail or it could be the simple fact that bad things happen

You have got to be kidding me. Pharisees?? I think everyone who has a problem with the FIB Church should take a look at themselves and compare themselves to what is taught in the Bible. Do you really believe everything in the Bible or only what fits the way you want to live?? Are you liveing the way God tells us to or the way you want to?? Are you obeying God or your flesh??

If you are having problems with being obedient to what God says and living the way you want than who is the Pharisee?? Study your Bible and see for yourself.

RH,

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds pretty much like you are saying that if you don’t go to an IFB then you aren’t really a Christian – That’s the very definition of a Pharisee.

Can you please tell us where in the Bible it says that if a person doesn’t attend an IFB church then they are not “believing everything in the Bible” or trying to make the Bible “fit the way they want to live”? Can you please show us where in the Bible it says that if a person doesn’t attend an IFB then they are “obeying the flesh” or not “being obedient”?

Katie,
I think you asked some excellent questions! It is puzzling to me how religious people have such a pretense of following Christ and really knowing Him, and yet they can’t even answer basic questions from the Bible.

It’s kind of ironic that I stumbled across this site while looking up a church I attended for a brief period that was an IFB church I would consider oppressive. Yet my post is in defense of my current IFB church.

I feel blessed to have attended an “oppressive” church for a few months. There I learned just how lost and watered down my prior church was. It opened my eyes to how complacent I had become with my stunted spiritual growth. I reluctantly attended church once a week at most. Now I attend church 2 to 3 times a week and look forward to the services. I regularly read my Bible and am growing spiritually. None of this would have happened if I was still at my feel good non-denominational church where the music was more show than worship, my friends had no problem going out and having drinks at a bar, and nobody would notice or care if you didn’t show up at church for a month at a time. In other words, we were not much different than the rest of the world. The Bible calls for us to be different yet many churches now would rather lower their standards than risk lowering attendance and the corresponding fall in donations.

I would say to those who feel their IFB church is “oppressive” to visit other IFB churches. The first one I attended was suffocating so we simply left and went searching for another solid preaching church with a better pastor. We went to to a couple more that were not oppressive at all. We finally settled in at the 4th one we visited which we totally love. The pastor preaches the true undiluted Word of God yet with love and compassion. The congregation is the most genuinely friendly and loving people we have ever met.

I would encourage you to listen to the sermons from my church and see that you can be loving and compassionate while still upholding the values and morals the Bible instructs us to uphold. The church I attend is Liberty Baptist Church in Southern California and the media at their web site is at http://libertybaptistchurch.org/media2010.html

We are at a time where we need to get closer to God and to his Word. There are some whacky IFB churches out there, just like with any other groups. Yet I would say there are far more lost churches of other denominations than oppressive IFB churches. Please pray for guidance and don’t let a bad experience make you stereotype all IFB churches.

Alan,

What’s more amazing is your hypocrisy. I can’t believe you don’t see it. Allow me to illustrate using your own words…

I feel blessed to have attended an “non-denominational” church for a few months. There I learned just how lost and full of legalism my prior IFB church was. It opened my eyes to how strict I had become with my stunted spiritual growth. I reluctantly attended church once a week at most. Now I attend church 2 to 3 times a week and look forward to the services. I regularly read my Bible and am growing spiritually. None of this would have happened if I was still at my legalistic IFB church where the music was more shallow and traditional then worship, my friends had no problem judging and gossiping and being gluttons, and nobody would notice or care if you didn’t show up at church for a month at a time. In other words, we were not much different than the Pharisees. The Bible calls for us to be different yet many churches now would rather legalize their standards than risk a non-performance based righteousness and corresponding fall in donations.

I would say to those who feel their non-denominational church is “watered down” to visit other non-denominational churches. The first one I attended was suffocating so we simply left and went searching for another solid preaching church with a better pastor. We went to a couple more that were not watered down at all. We finally settled in at the 4th one we visited which we totally love. The pastor preaches the true undiluted Word of God yet with love and compassion. The congregation is the most genuinely friendly and loving people we have ever met.

I would encourage you to listen to the sermons from my church and see that you can be loving and compassionate while still upholding the values and morals the Bible instructs us to uphold. The church I attend is Calvary Chapel in Sacramento California and the media at their web site is at http://www.calvarysac.org/

We are at a time where we need to get closer to God and to his Word. There are some whacky non-denominational churches out there, just like with any other groups. Yet I would say there are far more lost churches of oppressive IFB than other churches. Please pray for guidance and don’t let a bad experience make you stereotype all non-denominational churches.

So hopefully, with this illustration, you can see just how foolish your way of thinking is.

IFB churches and their pastors only 3 interest in you. 1. Total authority over your life. 2. How much money they can get out of your wallet. 3. How much work they can get out of your ass. My wife and I were members for three years and that is all it seems that the church wanted out of us. They have no interest in a person’s well being whatsoever. IFB is a collective monster that believes in the thre Ws, Win them, Wet them then Work them. Because I possess high skills with multimedia, leaving the church had been extremely difficult. We attempted two other times and were conned back into the fold. This time around the pastor is not as successful because I caught him red handed being verbally harsh to my wife. Also he preached a sermon with a demonstration that if you don’t go out soul winning you will have blood on your hands, and he had the assistant pastor put his hands in red dye and hold them up as a scary demonstration. He used the passage out of Eziekiel 3, which he took way out of context because it was a message to the prophet to warn Jerusalem that the Babylonians were coming, and the passage is not meant for today’s times. We live in an age where Bibles are everywhere, there’s a church on almost every corner and preaching is both on radio and television 24-7. Therefore, nobody is responsible for another person’s spiritual fate. Several days later after we left a letter stating we’re leaving, he sent us a letter saying were making a huge mistake and we have no scriptural reason/right to leave. Is there a scriptural reason to leave? The answer is no, and you don’t need a scriptural reason to leave a church. I live in America where everyone has the freedom of religious choice. I don’t feel guilty for my decision because I believe that God wants us to be at peace and not be in an environment where we will be manipulated and stresses. Remember this — salvation is for those who want it and not for those that need it.

Keith,
Welcome back into the freedom that Christ gave us. I am glad you had the courage to stand up to a bully pastor.
We are followers of Christ, not men. These kinds of churches often function as a means for people to live a religious lifestyle, without the benefit of a real close relationship with Jesus Christ. When people within these churches demonstrate the ability to think in a biblical and independent way, they are no longer useful in their religious system.

Y’all are all wrong. I attend a IFB and its not legalism. We believe in seperation, if you read your Bible than you know that women are to not wear pants, and we are to not listen to anything that will dishonor Christ. But what do I know ,I’ve been a brainwashed “victim” for the past 5 yrs. LOL

Wanda,
You just contradicted yourself. If you believe woman should not wear pants and you should separate yourself from the world, than you are legalistic. You should be more concerned about honoring Christ by rejecting false teaching. You are dishonoring Christ by holding to traditions of men rather than the word of Christ.

Hi Wanda,

I’m curious, where in the bible does it say that women are not to wear pants? Also who decides what dishonors Christ? You, your husband, your pastor, your Sunday School teacher?

There is a false teaching called “separation”. You will hear these IFB types talking about being separate or different from the world. There is a true biblical teaching that teaches Christians not to follow the sinful patterns of the world system. Bible doctrine teaches a Christian to follow Christ, to imitate Jesus, and to ultimately be like Jesus Christ in our behavior. Simply put, the goal of a Christian is to become like Jesus Christ.
The false teaching focuses on outward behavior such as what you wear, where you go, and what you listen to. The first problem with this teaching is that it sets up a false premise for godliness. True godliness is a heart attitude of devotion towards God out of which one wants to do what pleases God. Godliness is a heart attitude that demonstrates itself in “fruit of the Spirit”. False teachers encourage their people to adopt outward behaviors that substitute for true godliness and christlikeness.
The second problem is that these “standards” become totally focused on self. Instead of looking to Christ and His example, and imitating His character, the focus is on MY standards and MY being different from the world. No longer is the goal to be like Christ, it becomes MY own effort to be religious.
In the case of these false teachers, they twist the Scriptures. The true meaning of the bible is lost on them as they pursue their own agenda. It is not that they don’t use the Scripture, they misuse it to promote a false godliness, or ” a form of religion” if you like.
You will notice how often these “standards” they emphasize so zealously are not even taught in the bible. That should be a dead give away to anyone who truly desires to follow and honor Christ.

Hi Bob,

Wow, appreciated your comment. You summed up this “legalistic” attitude very nicely.

After having been isolated and programmed in this legalistic mess for so long, its at times difficult to stop seeing the world in this light. What I’m saying is, I must conciously work at not falling back into this legalism that I have been taught/indoctrinated in since I was a child. This seperation teaching in the IFB is just huge! And the problem is, just as you mentioned above, it leads to all kinds of other abuses. I mean where does it stop? You know Satan loooooves it! Using one of the oldest sins in the book, PRIDE – Hey we’re seperated and just alittle better than the average bear.

Anyway want to thank you for the good word you gave today, it truly blessed me. Oh that we would just get our eyes on the Saviour, it will change you!

I mentioned before that the church which I mention in this post had a very large bus ministry which included at least four counties. The attendance fluctuated weekly on my bus route. There were times though when it became overcrowded. I know the bus driver did ask people to call in advance when they were inviting guests.
Children forget. Adults forget. If each passenger brings a few guests, this can create a major problem not only in respect to capacity, but also in respect to the ratio of adult supervision for children. It can cause distractions. Add inclement weather! I think churches need to consider delays and cancellations during inclement weather and make announcements before drivers and passengers start their commutes. Churches also can consider their climate when scheduling events. I do know that many churches do have sign-up sheets. Also many churches will work to arrange carpools if the need exceeds their vans or buses. Churches can also rent facilities and share resources with other churches of similar beliefs and values. School buses do not have extra poles, railings, and hand grips that are available on public transit buses. They do not have restrooms like coach buses. It’s great to extend invitations to believers and guests. However, while this is a good cause, public safety cannot be compromised. It may be good to have a written policy that can be explained in fliers handed to children and their parents. These also get lost. It’s important for bus drivers and their assistants to call in advance. If overcrowding may be an issue on a particular week, the bus driver and assistants may be able to contact the church to arrange for additional assistance with transportation, or perhaps rent a facility closer to that neighborhood for an outreach or work with other churches.

I cannot believe i found this site. I was wondering if I was losing my mind. My story is similar to Bob’s (in the way that this IFB church breaks marriage.. in my case a potential marriage). Well i have a whole story behind this… but to cut to the chase. By the way, I have been going to a First Baptist Church all my life. When I started going to his church i had noticed the teachings seemed legalistic. With my ex-fiancee being a baby christian I noticed him saying he wants to do right by following the bible word for word. He was also getting so fearful and stressed out that God was gonna “Get Him” if he did not follow the bible word for word. During this time, he was even getting panic attacks. He even went to the Emergency Room for them. This is what led him to read the bible non-stop, to propose to me, and then break the engagement off one day before our wedding. He says god hardened his heart and told him not to marry me because i have been married before or else he will be committing adultery. It has been 8 years since my ex-husband left and he is with someone else. Ex-fiancee says that is the only reason he could not go through the wedding. I am able to say I am no longer with him. I have looking on the web for answers and felt alone.. but after reading this website I am relieved that I am not the only one experiencing this. I guess the only thing i can do is pray for my ex-fiance and hope he grows in his faith to know that these kind of teaching don’t reflect the kind of God we have. I now know that I am not alone.

aj,

While your ex-fiance has lost the privilage of holding you in his arms, you are free to stand in the full embrace of a Father that loves you like no other can or will. Glad you found this site!

God Bless

http://www.lifestream.org/waynes-books.php?bid=5

I did find that my remote control for the DVD Player had a menu button. It allows me to watch whatever I want to see at a particular time and skip over the rest. The guide button is helpful too. I wish that the print was a little larger though cause I need a magnifying glass to see the fine print, especially against a very dark surface. I don’t have a zapper yet but that’s a great invention!

Before I write a post, I want to let you know that often I scroll from top to bottom, sometimes reading the rest of the comments several times. I also check for new entries. Sometimes I miss hearing from some of the people who were writing posts.

There are things I cannot post because I have to respect other’s wishes for confidentiality. I do see a pattern in many of the posts though that do have similarities to my own. I wanted to let you know that I am so encouraged from those Christians, who in spite of obstacles and set backs have still managed to hold onto the faith and continue to pray and search.

I love Christmas. However, for me as well as others, it is a stressful time of year. The tree is up and decorated. That’s about all and some will wait until the very last minute. I don’t feel prepared yet. I do know from one day to the next, I try to take one day at a time and sometimes, even stop and take one hour at a time. I do thank God for those who bring encouragement into my life. I just try to figure out one step at a time how I can contribute and where my contribution would be helpful. We have to find some time and just capture a moment in time and meditate, somehow leaving those external extractions behind us. The great thing about Christmas and Easter is that we still have redemption.

Paul, I did like your comment which you posted on March 2, 2010. I thought Winifred made some very valid points in her posting on July 25, 2010. Corey keep your focus on God and let the Holy Spirit guide you through your study of the Bible. If you continue to feel discouraged, maybe visit with other believers who will accept and appreciate you. You don/t have to accept this as the norm.

Conviction is the result of the filling of the Holy Spirit. We have tools. Those instruments can be used for good or bad just like a vessel is molded by an artist or an instrument is played by a master. God made each person different. I like to read Psalm 139.

Actually I can back what I say in posts with the scripture. In some cases it might take the concordance, appendix, table of contents, outside commentaries, and Lexicon. If I don’t have the background myself, I sometimes turn to these sources.

Pam, everyone in the church is a sinner. We’re all sinners. That message occurs in Romans and all through the Bible in all the apostles and epistles. If we didn’t sin, we wouldn’t need God’s help in the first place. I realize some have forgotten this fact. They just became absorbed. Each day is a brand new chance to start over. Just don’t worry about the huge picture God only sees and take one step at a time one hour or day at a time, whichever works best. I love Proverbs 3:5-6. God didn’t give up on us. Sometimes we feel like giving up on ourselves. I know I’ve gotten discouraged and frustrated at times. At those points, God seems to know and just sends a wonderful Christian into my life and I’m uplifted. Music and poetry also uplift me as well as those walks through the park, devotions by the lake or on a boat, and sometimes, since I have verses memorized, even swimming laps in a swimming pool or any other excercise. That should be exercise. I’m still getting used to some of the changes in the restructuring of this website.

Paul,
Thank you for your words. I feel so much better. Before this web site.. I keep thinking why am having to defend myself against the Pastor. For example…He kept saying the sooner we marry the both of you the better so we won’t be in sin. He even wanted to marry us earlier than the date I picked out. He said i can marry you tonight and then we can have another on the date we picked out. I told him I will not do this and lie to my family about the day I got married. There are other things but won’t mention. Has anyone ever heard of the book THE HOME by John R. Rice?? My ex-fiancee’s pastor recommended this read before we got married. This book totally brainwashed my ex-fiancee! I think there is a better way to counsel couples for marriage.

Here is a brief overview of my time in IFB churches.

Part One:

The first IFB church that my family and I went to had about 30 members. The people were kind and the pastor seemed ok. After attending church services for about two months, we decided to join. Immediately after the service where we were voted in, the songleader & the pastor came up to me to have a little “chat” about the rules.

I was told that there were dress codes for everywhere no matter whether we were in church or not. No shorts, my wife wasn’t to wear pants, we were to dress modestly, etc, etc. They were treating me like I knew absolutely nothing about the bible and they acted like their instructions were directly from the bible. I was partially amused and partially irritated. I waited until they were finished with their instructions and then I asked (since we were discussing dress code), why didn’ t the women in the church have their heads covered as it says in 1 Corinthians?

They kind of stood there for a few seconds staring at me, not knowing what to say. I followed up with a question asking why the women were allowed to speak out loud in church when in 1 Corinthians it says that women should be silent in church. The songleader didn’t say a word and just walked away. The pastor said, “Well, that’s a good question. I’ve wondered about that one myself” and then he walked away. I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, but I wasn’t about to let those two think that they could buffalo me with random rules that they couldn’t back up with biblical scripture.

We stayed for about two more months before we stopped attending that particular church. The last straw was an evangelist they had in for a weeklong holler-fest. This yahoo bellowed and yelled about how he and his family were righteous and the rest of us were a bunch of sinners who were spitting on Jesus with the way we were living our lives (sadly – I’m not joking or embellishing; that really was what most of his preaching was about).

There was a boy (about ten years old) at the church service one of the nights this evangelist was preaching. The boy was sitting in the front row and he had an earring. The evangelist noticed this boy’s earring and proceeded to mock this boy and talk about how when he was a kid they would have “beat the snot” out of any boy who wore an earring. I looked at the pastor (who was sitting on the front row) and he was smiling and shaking his head “yes”. I couldn’t imagine anything more un-Christian than making fun of someone for their appearance (in a church setting especially). When we left the church that evening, it was all I could do to not to punch that evangelist in the nose. I told the pastor on the way out, “we won’t be back”.

Part Two:

We thought IFB churches can’t all be like that. Let’s try another…

The second church was initially better than the first. The people were wonderful and the pastor had a passion for preaching. There were no red flags or warning bells, so we joined after attending services for a couple months.

By the time we left three years later, the main reasons we left were: (1) pastor worship, (2) increasingly manipulative tactics by the pastor, and (3) you weren’t a “Good” Christian unless you were at the church every time the doors were open (which was all the time). I really tried to keep things in perspective and give the pastor the benefit of the doubt, but I couldn’t in good conscience keep my kids in that church setting any longer.

The pastor was NOT to be questioned about his decision on anything. A deacon told me (shortly before he left) that while on a trip to a bible college he had met one of the pastor’s professors. He told the pastor in a deacon’s meeting that he had met and talked to so and so. The pastor got red in the face and yelled at the deacon, “YOU ARE NOT TO SPEAK TO HIM EVER AGAIN”. The deacon was flabbergasted as to his reaction because the professor didn’t say anything bad about the pastor (things that make you go hmmm?).

The pastor was a master at insinuating you were doing something wrong (he would do it from the pulpit or in random conversations). He wouldn’t say the person’s name – but pretty much everyone knew who he was “admonishing” that service. He was fond of saying that if you felt convicted by a sermon, then the Holy Spirit is trying to get your attention about sin in your life (Of course it couldn’t be that the pastor was throwing insinuations during a sermon while staring at you).

The pastor worship thing was getting to me also. We even had an evangelist who basically said that if anyone questioned our pastors character that it would be acceptable to punch them (I’m assuming that he meant punching a man, maybe a woman would deserve a slap?). If you heaped praises on the pastor and told stories about how much you love the pastor, then you were A-OK.

During that time, my family & I rarely had any time together just as a family. We were at church over 22 times a month (Sunday morning & evening worship, Wednesday night service, Thursday evening soulwinning, Saturday morning soulwinning, Men’s breakfast gathering, Women’s meetings, Nursing Home visitations, etc, etc). I figured up that between getting ready for church activities, driving to church, attending the service, etc – that we were spending about 80 – 100 hours a month in church activities. That’s like having a second job. To put the icing on the cake, we would be reminded every once in a while that we weren’t doing enough and if we REALLY loved Jesus we wouldn’t mind giving more of our time to the church. I’m not sure, but I don’t think Jesus would have minded our family having some time to be together at home as a family.

Preaching Themes common in this church:

You think you’re saved, but you’re not – You might be on your way to HELL!

If you don’t want to help the church all the time – your priorities are screwed up (YOU MIGHT NOT BE SAVED!).

Tithing – Give till it hurts and then give another couple percent (That shows you’re a Good Christian).

Why your pastor is right all the time (and anyone who questions him is wrong).

Why IFB churches are the only true churches.

And my favorite: anything that was controversial was labeled as Strong Meat that mature Christians would understand (meaning that if you didn’t understand or didn’t agree, then you were a “baby” Christian).

I could go on with many more examples of the IFB mindset, but I should bring this to a close. I met many wonderful and gracious people in IFB churches. Some of those people were struggling with the same reasons that I left, but chose to stay for whatever reasons. I pray that they have either found peace with their decision to stay or have found peace in a church that is not “works” oriented.

JP, Your story sounds so familiar. It’s love with a hook. Do everything just our way and we’ll love you, question or disagree – you’re trouble. Hope you are doing well. God Bless.

First off… Jesus loves you all, and so do I. Give up the
arguments, I am a IFB, and we are none of the bad stories you guys
have made up. We believe the Bible word for word…The KJV 1611 by
the way, the infallible word of GOD.(perfect) We doe everything it
says, and try not to do anything it doesn’t.. though none are
perfect… Not 1. And women should NOT wear that which obtaineth to
a man… (pants) Her hair is here glory… And all that believe in
their heart that Jesus died and was risen, and confess with their
mouth, their sins SHALLL BE SAVED.. and to sow discord among the
brethern is wrong, and a sin.. So just read your BIBLE….. and
praise God for your life today… And judge not least ye be judged!
Love in Christ, Dennis

I was saved 18 years ago and attended a church that was
very legalistic but not IFB at the time, now it is but the pastor
has calmed down a bit, then I attended a major pharisee church that
was rather ridiculous as I look back and after all the nonsense we
got out of church for about 2 years because I just couldn’t stand
the meanness of christians and if being a good one meant I had to
be like them then I didn’t want to be a “good christan”. I couldn’t
stand to hear preaching or be around any of it and I believe God
was up in Heaven with a big club waiting for me to mess up. Through
those years being out of church God was gently working on me trying
to get a hold of me. My kids had went to a baptist church(I grew up
in a southern baptist church and had heard the gospel many times
and the pastor and his wife were just decent loving people, so my
view of God wasn’t tainted.)At the time a baptist church was just a
baptist church, I didn’t know anything about the southern
convention or the IFB. So I thought I was attending a church like
what I grew up in. At first it was ok I though all the people were
kind and for the most part the preaching was ok the first couple
years and God had gotten a hold of me big time. He took me on quite
the amazing journey. I no longer believed He had a club waiting to
beat me down but was patient and loving and was starting to believe
He loved me. We became members which was a huge step for my husband
because he had experienced bad things growing up in his church. Our
family went through some very hard times with lots of medical
issues and after all that turmoil we had our 5th child who was born
with HLHS. The left side of his heart was not developed and it
require 3 surgeries so we spent lots of time in the hospital and
our kids were still attending the IFB while we were gone and we
found out later that the people were horrible to them. My 14 yr old
son was told by the “pastor” that his brother was born that way
because he wasn’t right with God. My children were traumatized.
Soon after we came home from the hospital things started happening
to my girls and all of a sudden some of the moms hated my
daughters. My children didn’t bother people were very quiet and not
trouble makers but we weren’t conformers and I know now that was
the main issue. We had problems after problems for 5 years and we
just thought it was a bunch of angry stupid women but right before
we were run out the door for trying to get to the bottom of our
daughters unstableness we found out the “pastor” was behind all of
it. Turning the women against me and my family. This man divides
husbands and wives and had done it with me and my husband. I wore
skirts for 7 years and now know that it is a man-made rule. My
story is so long and I can not believe some of the things people
were willing to do to please their leader at our family’s expense
and at the worst time of our life. My son is 6 and is doing well
but it was touch and go many times and they did not care. My former
IFB by definition is truly a cult. Not because I am angry but it is
a fact. The leader controls so much of other peoples life and they
let him, down to the beating of their children. He wanted us to
beat our kids and we wouldn’t do it. I would of never thought that
the “church” I was attendeding 7 years ago that such wicked things
happened and may of not believed some of the stories but unless you
go through it you will never really know how wicked the IFB is. I
am sure there are some good men in the IFB but you eventually have
to get out or conform. Anyone that stands against these men are
immediately tagged as enemies and must be dealt with according to
the only way these fraudulent “men of God” know how. By separating,
dividing and deceiving instead of taking heed according to God’s
Word. We left Nov 15 of 2009 and no one has contacted us and all
think we are evil. Even my husbands sister thinks we are the wicked
ones and we truly did not do anything but try and survive. We tried
our best to do things according to scripture but it backfired every
time. I believe the IFB is a dangerous, dangerous religion and many
lose their faith in God and blame God. I know I did when we first
left. I was trying so hard to be close to the Lord and be obedient
to Him and do what He wanted but on a good note going through the
many battles that I did because of the IFB God did an amazing
healing in me and that only proves God can be anywhere even in a
dangerous cult. People die and children are raped and molested in
this cult and the people cover up for each other and let the
children suffer because of fear, guilt and intimidation. I have
heard many testimonies of these very things and they are usually
bullied to shut them up. A lot of these mean are just brute beast.
So before you attack maybe you ought to be concerned with what is
truly going on in these so called churches. I wouldn’t want to be a
part of any of it and I think the Lord doesn’t either. How could
He??? There was so much more that happened to us but I haven’t sat
down and taken the time to write it out. Keep up the good work and
bringing light into the darkness.

TM – God bless you and your family, your story touched my heart, unfortunately this same type of story has been told over and over on this site. Simple-minded, uneducated, mean-spirited men taking advantage of people in “their” flock, that is part of the problem with the IFB, no accountability, they brag about being independent, and then abuse the people in “their” flock. I wish you and your family well and continue to seek the Lord in your lives. God cares what is on the inside alot more than what is on the outside. The IFB’s love to major on the outside, what you wear, the music you listen to, how many times you are int the church etc, always worried about the externals, dare I say it? The Lord looks at the interior, and is concerned about the heart.

Christian – Do you really believe that the Romans hung the dead body of Jesus upon the cross of Calvary as the KJV says at Acts 5:30?

Where was God’s word prior to 1611?

Does your church teach that we are to obey all the ceremonial Law, all 613 laws? I see you quoted the “pants” law, but I submit to you that female slacks are not men’s pants. I also submit to you that we are no longer under the law. Does your IFB still worship on the Sabbath, which is Saturday?

The bible tells us to try the Spirits, have you tried this Spirit that you are involved in, and is this Spirit from God?

Christian, I’m wondering how you interpret the word “pants”
from “And women should not wear that which obtaineth to a man.” Men
wear underpants, should women not wear underpants? Men wear shoes
and socks, should women not wear shoes and socks? Men wear
deodorant, should women not wear deodorant? See how silly that is?
Why pants? What is so special about pants and how do you get
“pants” from that verse? I would love to know.

“Christian”,

I’ve heard these exact arguments before. Simply because we are discussing the faults of the IFB movement, we are labeled as “Sowing discord among the brethren”. Let’s turn this around and see how the shoe fits on the other foot:

The Catholics consider themselves to be Christian, yet every IFB church I know rails against Catholics and Catholicism. Wouldn’t that be a case of the IFB churches “sowing discord among the brethren”?

I already know your answer before you post: The IFB churches are right and everyone else is wrong. It’s OK for IFB churches to blast Catholics because they are obviously not true Christians, right?

The kicker is throwing in the “judge not lest ye be judged” at the end. After lambasting all of us for speaking the truth (& yes- everything in my post is the truth), you throw that at us to remind us that we shouldn’t judge, correct? Remember what Jesus said in John 7:24, “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” We are to judge righteously and if that involves bringing IFB churches to task for their misrepresentation of the gospel – then so be it.

Having attended IFB churches for over three and a half years, having been a member who never missed a service during that time (& attended 95% of the other church functions), and having earned a Master’s degree in Ministry from an IFB college– I feel that I am qualified to express my opinion on the subject matter.

I’m not saying that each and every IFB church has these types of shortcomings and is misrepresenting the gospel, but I do know that the two churches that I attended (and several IFB preachers /evangelist I met) presented the gospel (& conducted the church business) in a manner consistent with the other people’s experiences listed here.

The pastor worship is rampant in the IFB churches that I knew. Here’s a direct quote from an IFB pastor during a sermon where he is discussing people having an opinion that is different than his point of view: “If you would spend more time helping people to fall in love with the pastor than trying to win them over to your STUPID point of view we would (have a better church.)”. That quote is not out of context, he meant exactly what it says. From the first hand experiences that I’ve had, the IFB pastors have zero tolerance for disagreement with their point of view.

JP – You present all good points. I have had the IFB expereience in my rear view mirror (at least the worst of it) for about 2 years now, the farther I get from it, the better I can see the shortfalls. When you are raised in this mess and taught “how” to interpret the bible from the IFB point of view, and never allowed to have an independent thought, or God forbid interpret something differently from the MOG (man of God) it is very difficult to escape. Many of us have our entire lives, friends ect, built around the church, and when that is taken away, it can throw your life into a mess.

I well remember my old fundy pastor regularly saying “don’t believe me study it in the bible for yourselves” so at least he stated this even if he really didn’t mean it. So I did study and finally had to leave his church when I found the IFB belief system regarding certain issues were wrong. Anyone reading this, please study the bible for yourselves and if your church is getting it wrong, speak up and challenge the MOG, and let him know you don’t believe as he does.

Pastor worship as you say is rampant. Where do the fundies get this teaching. Our precious Lord Jesus came to planet earth as a servant, and we are supposed to “worship” some sinful, uneducated man, are you kidding? I am looking into this whole one-man rule over the church, I am inclined, from my study of scripture, that this approach to authority in the new testament church is wrong. It appears to me that the 1st century churh practiced multiple elder rule, thus not allowing one “nut” to take a church over the cliff, think Jim Jones, in other words that authority wouldn’t be invested in one man, but several, then you would have some accountability, as it is now, the MOG is king over his domain, I think this is wrong and very unhealthy.

I wish you well, keep on keeping on in the name of Jesus, and let Him be your authority.

The modern day institutional church has made the “pastorate” into a vocation not a function within the body of Christ. IFB colleges are filled with young men who have been called by the pressure of “barn-storm, shingle-rattlin, fire and brimstone, rabble-rousing” preachers who are asking “WHO will stand in the gap and make up the hedge?” or “Where’s the MAN!” And those who surrender to this noise consider themselves “called of God.”
However, there are men that who are fulfilling the “function” of a pastor. They are not called by a title nor would consider taking the title of “pastor.” They are not a CEO overseeing their empire and its people. They are just men who have traveled the road with Jesus and are eager to point others towards Him. They possess no “authority” over others but are equippers and encouragers.
Just some thoughts.

Church – A building with a special room, specifically designed to focus on one person.

Discipleship – Teaching people, who could not or would not do what you do, to do what you do.

as for pants…. we will leave that up to broad interpration… but as for IFB being bad.. you can’t judge all people for the sins of one, God wouldnt do it and niether should we. I dont say your religious cect is off, so what is this junk. Are you so mad at your past to blame everyone?

Christian – Can you attend Sunday worship service in jeans and a t-shirt?
Are you allowed to listen to christian contempory music?
Can your girlfriend/wife wear pants to church?
Could you have a glass of wine with your meal, if you were dining out with your pastor?
Is tithing mandatory to be a deacon?
Is attendance at church every time the door is open an indication of someone’s spirituality?
Have you ever disagreed with your pastor about anything? How was that received?

You see most of the above are dictated by the IFB’s, you may say you agree with them, but do you? Not one of these is explicitly covered in scriptures, these are a matter of personal preference or conviction, but most of these are taught as absolutes in the IFB.

Please read through this site you will see similar stories from people all over the country that have similar tales of how they were abused by their churches/pastors.

I do wish you well.

@ Christian This is not just one pastor. I have heard
thousands of stories of the power hungry “pastors” in the IFB
churches. We nearly lost our daughter to suicide because of the
evil things that were going on and we could never get to the bottom
of it until a week before we left. We have been out for 13 months
now and we are still a mess from it. Why do you want to argue with
all of us about the wickedness that goes on, do you think we are
all making it up. I can see you have been trained to attack anyone
who says anything about the IFB. There is some really bad stuff
going on in this group. Rape, child molestation, and child abuse
and they cover up for each other in the name of God. I don’t think
so. If you love the IFB have at it but stop making comments to
victims who have been hurt and abused enough. That is exactly what
you are doing. Go somewhere that is for you. We are here because I
faith and our lives have been shattered and like I said in my first
post unless you go through it you will never, ever know what we are
dealing with. You truly are a IFB. By exposing the evil that goes
on does NOT hurt the name of God but shines light into the
darkness. So if you love the IFB fine but leave those alone that
have already been hurt by people like you. You do not have a clue.
If I sent you my full story you would not believe it. My question
to all IFB that come on here and other forums dealing with this
wickedness. WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THE IFB NAME AND NOT YOUR
LORD AND SAVIORS NAME???? Christ would be rebuking these wicked men
just like he did the Pharisees. If you don’t post this I understand
but I am tired of people thinking this is nothing and they are
sometimes even getting away with murder.

This is gonna be long and my prayer is SOMEBODY gets to
read it. First of all know that I speak the truth in love and that
I WILL see all of you again someday. So we can talk it over then if
you want. It’s a shame to see the folks on here suffering from such
a delusion. In this “End Times” world we live in, it’s not
suprising you would utilize your God given free will to choose a
more “seeker sensitive” approach to evangelism. Legalism is another
way fo sayinbg you follow the Law. If you say “My God wouldn’t send
________ people to hell your right..he doesnt exist. If a Judge
allowed murders to go free he wouldn’t be a good judge, right? Then
how can you even imagine that God would let you get away with sin?
Those who have not accepted Jesus as their personal saviour before
they die WILL GO TO HELL forever. I don’t want you to go to hell
(and it seems like alot of folks on here won’t regardless) then get
saved! But their is a sickness in this worldly world. People think
God will let them do whatever they want. Why do things God’s way if
doing it the world’s way gets more results, right? Why “offend”
people, right? The Ten Commandments are offensive to all sinners
(like me), because we are all guilty. The only way I can “judge
righteously” is to discern wether or not they have been saved
through faith in Jesus and asked Him to be LORD of their life.
Everything else is a personal decision that they will have to be
accountable for..but NONE of the legalistic convictions of IFB
members are going to make a differnece in the condition of their
personal salvation. The Bible says many will get into Heaven by the
“skin of their teeth”. Throughout history God’s people have been
persecuted for trying to live Godly lives that seem weird or
offensive to their contemporaries. Their is one indisputable fact.
If it’s in The Bible it’s true. If you think it was written by men,
you don’t know a thing about the TRUE history of how we got the
Bible from the apostles. And I’d dare say that MOST Christains have
NEVER read the whole Bible, much less outside of church or only
when God has “let bad things happen to them”. You see..Baptists
never “came out of the Roman Catholic Church” as we were never in
it to begin with. Too much TV for most of you honestly, not enough
study of the important things in this life. Truly, I have many
friends saved in all kinds of Christian denominations. As for me,
the Holy Spirit led me to my beliefs through BIBLE READING!!
….and only after 15 years did I hear about an IFB church, the
first of which I left and the current one I don’t agree with
everything my pastor does but I know his stance on God’s word and I
agree with that. I’m sure The LORD doesn’t need or require
mankind’s assistance with preserving His written word. That is why
the KJV is the ONLY non-copywrighted Bible in the world. If it
really is God’s word it should be free, don’t you agree? Wearing
skirts, abstaining from alcohol, not condoning homosexuality,
turning off the idiot box or just living a seperated and peculiar
life are not going to get you into heaven. But they are a measure
of your personal obedinece to God based upon the guidlines given to
YOU from God. Again, He gives you the choice, some will barely make
it and some will shine like the stars. I myself am an IFB member of
my local New Testament church. Jesus promised that they way was
narrow, not hard. (Check your Bible version) Gail Riplinger PHD
Harvard and Cambridge educated scholar has discovered the KJV reads
at a lower grade level than all other versions and has a built in
dictionary…sound like OH I DONT KNOW A MIRALCE??!! In the end
many will depart from the faith and give credence to the duplicit
doctrine of devils and aid in the formation of a one world church.
A feel good place where everything is always somebody else’s fault.
But someady our protests will someday sound stangley familiar to
words spoken in the past…”But God the WOMAN made me do it…But
God the SERPENTmade me do it..HILARIOUS!! Nothing changes in our
sinful nature. Good thing God’s word doesn’t change either. No need
to debate, I’ll let God do the fighting. If your uncomfortable with
my comment, why? Is it because not not so secretly you watch TV
programs you would be afraid to watch with Jesus in the room?
Because you drink to excess where the Bible COMMANDS YOU NOT TO
drink wine at all (By the way wine was not alcoholic, it was a
small ammount used to purify dirty water or grape juice..fact look
it up..oh wait you’d have to turn off the TV for a while right?)?
Is it because you use God’s name as a curse word? You would rather
do ANYTHING but read His word? Your too afraid to stand up and
witness to your friends, your children and strangers who will
someday cry out to you “Why didn’t you tell me about Jesus?”? Is it
because you think evolution is true, a stupid unprovable, state
sponsored religion that even scientists secretly admit is a theory?
Is it because you think that DEEDS will get you to Heaven, or maybe
it’s because your pride (and who is the father of pride?) has
allowed you to forget that I am like Paul, CHIEF AMONG SINNERS, yet
I hope to be humbled enough to try to submit to God and his
commandments. I am that “Christian dude” who comes to your house
because the “mainstream Christians” are afraid of offending people.
THAT is why the JW’s and Mormons and Muslims are growing and we are
shrinking. What Atheist wants to be a part of a church on a Sunday
that says they honor God then walk, talk and act like them during
the week. I don’t blame them…at least they are honest about their
lack of faith. And even though I fail constantly at being the man
He wants me to be, I still try to do God’s will, not twist it into
some disgusting, perverted man-made lie to suit my 21st cntury
lifestyle. I don’t care if you EVER go to my church, really I
don’t..I want you to get saved..and if your saved and your not
doing much for The LORD I want to make you uncomfortable. I just
hope you see yourself in the LIGHT OF GOD’s WORD and see that you’
like me are found wanting. EVERY WORD IN THE KJV IS TRUE AND IS OF
NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION…THEREFORE IT IS LITERAL!!!! That’s is
why you are scared, scared like Paul was. Why don’t you “Think for
yourself, independently.” Stop asking your pastor or your friend or
Oprah what you should think and ask God!!! Do you really believe in
Him or not? Because if you are offended by the TRUTH that’s your
problem. That’s why it’s called the TRUTH because it let’s you know
that you ain’t got it…

We don’t want to feel expendable in the very church and
it’s affiliated organizations where we choose to participate, and
many also want to be productive citizens in our civic
responsibilities and volunteer work also. Certain practices,
whether they are directed at an individual or just one becomes
aware of them, cause one to feel expendable. Church is about
teaching, building, and rebuilding lives. At the very last
breathing moment, a sinner turned to Jesus Christ and asked for
forgiveness and was forgiven. In life there are times of
achievements, and unfortunately also times of setbacks. There may
be situations where that correction occurs outside of the walls of
a particular organization. I realize this. Church is also supposed
to be a place of accountability not just for the attender or new
member, but also for the highest levels of administration and
everyone between and that includes the first time visitor.
Discipline, when it occurs, is supposed to occur with a sense of
humility and with chances. I do believe as Christians we are
supposed to care about the physical needs of those within our walls
as well as the outreaches in the communities. This may even include
exceptional situations like national disasters. When does pastor
worship start? I believe it’s a gradual process and in many cases,
the believers are not even aware that they worship a particular
pastor. I don’t know if this is even intentional. The focus is
supposed to be the Bible rather than a member’s name. When that
name starts to be substituted by other members and mentioned as
often or more than the Bible, or when a church falls apart because
a certain person leaves, then it’s pastor worship, or any worship
of any leader. That’s when it becomes idolatry. It doesn’t even
have to be a person. It can be a practice or even an object. When
the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost no longer seem to be the focus,
that also becomes idolatry. This can happen gradually. When it
becomes imbalanced, it becomes idolatry. When there’s no
accountability, it also becomes idolatry. I’m not implying that
churches should be free-for-all environments. That’s not scriptural
either. I’m not referring to “itching” ears in my posts.

Idolatry can set into a church or even various Christian
affiliated organizations which a body of believers supports when
the emphasis changes from the Father, Son, and Holy spirit to
mathematical statistics. Then the pastor becomes a “celebrity” or
“recruiter” or mid-level manager when we look at the whole picture
even if a particular local body calls itself independent. An
association may have a looser structure than a more traditional
denomination. Still there is a higher level of command, especially
if certain aspects of the minister’s salary are financially
supported by these outside organizations as well as the body of
believers. This is especially true if they practice impulsive
excommunication on a regular basis. It may be overt or secretive.
I’m not saying a church doesn’t or shouldn’t want to grow in
numbers, just that the emphasis on numbers doesn’t become a greater
focus than God’s definition of Christian growth defined in the New
Testament Apostles and epistles. It can even happen with ordinances
or sacraments or any other aspect of Christian life found in the
church or its supporting ministries when the one exceeds the
balance of the others. Often the church doesn’t see this happening,
nor do the outside organizations supporting the church and vise
versa. It could even be something materialistic. And it could be
the civic laws that apply for occupational safety of the structure
and its insured vehicles and drivers, etc… This is what I’ve been
talking about with my posts. I’m not suggesting a free-for-all
environment by any means. If I wanted a free-for-all environment, I
wouldn’t be going to a church in the first place. Sometimes
churches can close opportunities though with vague understanding or
definitions or applications. We wouldn’t dare ask that everyone
stop reading books soley cause there are bad books or magazines on
the market. That would be ridiculous. Yet we do this with the arts
which include literature as well as music, dance, and visual arts.
I do believe that there are principles that apply in Phil 4:8. I’m
not just writing off any limitations. Some will think if I use
restrictions I’m talking about something else so I’ll use another
word. I’m not asking you to abandon your restrictions if they help
you lead a Godly life either. I do believe convictions come from
the Holy Spirit. We have to look at the Bible. Prayer or any other
aspect of the church life should not become a vain act but must
have meaning. Private life is as important as what we do in public
too. God can see our hearts. Other humans can only see outward
appearances. God can see the whole picture and many times believers
in a body can’t if one’s family and friends fall outside the social
circle of the church. We have to becareful about hasty
judgments.

I know this won’t get printed, but I’ll submit it anyway. There are about 25 million Baptist churches in America, according to some estimates. They are individually governed. There is no “IFB” denomination. It is a straw horse that only exists in someone’s mind. That’s why they are called independent. If there are a few hundred, or even a few thousand, that hold to extreme positions in some areas of doctrine or practice, they do not answer to any other fundamental Baptist churches, nor are the majority of good fundamental Baptist churches accountable for the individual actions of others. If there is any blame that actually exists, let’s direct it toward those that are actually guilty.

Arv said there are 25 million baptist churches in the US! at 307 million americans as of the 2010 census, that’s one baptist church for every 12 people…I doubt it, America is at least 25% catholic and the there are muslims, jw’s, mormons, episcopalians, jews, atheists, and alot of people don’t go to church…even if half the country was a church attending Christian that would be one baptist church for every family…where do you get your numbers??

I send my daughter to an IFB school where we attend church.
(I had three other kids that went to the local public school. It
was a disaster!) This church is great. Best thing that ever
happened to my family.

Erik – How long have you been drinking the Kool-Aid, no copyright on the KJV? You’ve got to be kidding me! Yes the KJV is copywritten. The University presses of Oxford and Cambridge have copyright privileges on the KJV and have for centuries, it is the “Crown Copyright” This lie (about the KJV not being copywritten) was started by the biggest liar in the country, Peter Ruckman, in a propaganda book he wrote several years ago.

Now I’ve told you who the biggest liar in the country is, now how about the 2nd biggest liar? Gail Anne Ludwig, Kalada, Latessa, Riplinger! That’s right boys and girls your fundy hero has been married 3 times, all husbands still alive. I guess her ex’s couldn’t put up with her lies either.

She lies on nearly every page of New Age Bible Versions. She loves charts in this book comparing the “perverted” bibles with the KJV, funny thing is, she often times misquotes the “perverted” bibles and at times also misquotes the KJV. Oh well, I guess lies are ok as long as she is serving the Lord! She blasphemes when she says that God told her what to write down in NABV and she was just acting as His secretary. She confuses Bishop Brooke Foss Wescott who was instrumental in providing us with a very good greek new testament with William Wynn Wescott, the founder of the London Hermetic order of the Golden Dawn. When confronted with her many mistakes she will not admit any wrongdoing. She has attacked many serious defenders of the KJV such as David Cloud of “O Timothy Ministries” and the Waites of the “Dean Burgon Society.” Quite a spicy girl Ms. Gail. I just dig that acrostic algebra!

I love it when uneducated IFB’s start running down them “wicked Catholics” when they wouldn’t even have thier KJV had it not been for the faithful efforts of Erasmus, (catholic priest who remained a faithful catholic til his dying day) it was he who provided the greek new testament which the KJV translators used for the KJV.

Erik I really hope and pray at least a tiny ray of light is starting to seep into your pitiful, indoctrinated brain. You have been fed lies, you have come on here meaning well and exposed your ignorance for all the world to see. I used to be where you are. Please begin to study these things for yourself, but until you do please stick to topics that you know at least something about.