Independent Fundamental Baptist

I really appreciate your taking the time to organize this website. I was involved with an IFB church for less than a year, but I believe the Lord had me there for His purposes. It was very educational, as God began to expose their flesh-based ministry one layer at a time. They are based on a foundation of the Law,and that is why there is actually so much uncovered sin in these groups, because the “by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death”. Seemed to me that the head of the Church (to them) was their pastor, and not Christ. When I commented that the pastor was preaching Moses, and not Jesus, they asked me to leave. Of course, Pharisees are offended by Truth. Read Mt.15.13,14. I am glad you were able to shake the dust off your feet, and move on down the ” narrow way”.

I am so thankful for this website. Thank you whomever you are for doing this. I know you wish to remain annonymous but my guess is that you are a female, like me, and that you were involved in First Baptist Church in Hammond Indiana. I’ve been there and just some things you said lead me to think you are what I have assumed.

We were in a church like this in Canada for some time, and it nearly destroyed everything about me and my family. It has been the darkest period of my life.

I am at the point right now where I don’t even know if I beleive in God anymore. I feel like he is just a great big puppet master. It seems that there is always a carrot being put in front of you, so to speak, and it is always unattainable. I do not understand how the bible can say we have free will and then go through things no person should have to withstand, because we tried to go and exercise that free will. It is all a big game and I hate people who play games. Jealous people are irrational and controlling right? Then what does it say to people that the bible says God is a jealous god. Has it not dawned on anyone that means then that God is controlling and irrational? Why would anyone want to be associated with this in any way?

KHM
Dear friend in Christ,
I feel your hurt and confusion. Please let me if i can be of some help. God is a jealous God but not in a controlling irrational way. He is jealous if our “first” ( before all else) in life is not him. The bible teaches seek ye first the kingdom of God and his rightousness and all these things shall be added unto you. The things in life we endure or go through are for our growth and benifit. It was once so beautifully said: Imagine we are surounded by our heavinly fathers angels and satan and the world are hurling things at us, hard things! and God instructs his angels to stop them. No! don’t let that through, no! don’t let this through. And so we are invisibally protected! But then God says ” Let this one through” and so it hits us. But it has been “FATHER FILTERED” Why. For our growth, so we will have the experience to help someone else further on down the road. Who knows why but we must trust that it is for a right purpose. Now is the time to draw close to your saviour. trust him who breathed life into you and knit you in your mothers womb. He knows the beginning from the end, we cannot know this. Satan would love for you to turn your back on God because of a hurtful church experience. Don’t make the mistake of lumping your Saviour in the same pile as your church experience. Our hope is in the LORD!!!!! Trust him, He is for you!!! He wants you to know the answers and understand! Trust him, cling to him. NEVER DOUGHT IN DARKNESS WHAT GOD HAS SHOWN YOU IN THE LIGHT.
prayerfully
Tammy

Dear Tammy,

Nothing is ever going to get me back into a church again.

I know what I have been through in my life in the past 16 years since I started going to church and I can tell you that God has RARELY stopped those dart and arrows. The last 16 years of my life are very similar to that of Job. So I have decided to take Job’s wife’s advice to him. Curse God, and die (not literally in my case though). I can not put God first in my life. There have been many times in the last 16 years that I have earnestly tried to do that. I have done everything you are supposed to do, and not because it was expected, but because I did truly and sincerely in my heart want it. And not once has God been there for me. It has been almost 16 years of silence from Him and I think that is unacceptable. So I am done. Simple as that. I am not looking back and my life has been better since.

P.S. – I wanted to add that I am not lumping God into the same pile as my bad church experience. I am saying that God has let me down and hurt me more than that church experience did. I can not ever welcome him back into my life after what I have been through.

Dear KMH,

What you are experiencing here on earth in your pain is an example of what life WITHOUT God will be for eternity if you don’t put your trust in Jesus Christ. I don’t know what you mean by God letting you down as He has not promised us happiness and peace here on earth, but rather Jesus tells us we will suffer great tribulation. (John 16:33, John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.) Do you think that Stephen enjoyed being stoned for his stance in the Faith?

It is somewhat ironic that you want to “blame” God for what has happened to you and that He didn’t pull you out of it, and yet now you are “happier” that you have no-one to blame…

It is very difficult being a Christian today, because there is so much false teaching out there and you get one extreme or the other, either so much freedom that following Christ means just about nothing, or overbearing control from the power-hungry. I would recommend staying away from “church” for a while and reading your Bible. I can also recommend some excellent teachings by Norm Wakefield, especially the Raised Up With Christ series.

Because of Him!

This comment has been move the the “Emails Received” page so that I can address this reader’s concerns.

Dear Steve,
You have said alot on your site abut what IFB believe but I didn’t see a section on IFB teachings about Jesus and salvation. Did I miss a link or do you think that the IFB is correct in that teaching?

Friend,

I feel so sorry for you and all who think the Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches are a denomination and that all it’s pastors are dictators.

I have had some very prejudicial things happen to me at the hands of Independent Fundamental Baptist pastors but consider it human error and attribute it to being hardened “as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.” II Timothy 2:3.

I have been told that I could not have a bus route because I was black. I am German-Spanish and Negro on my mother’s side. I did not leave the church but rather exercised myself as a Christian and offered my services to the pastor by finishing painting the church which another left undone.

An Independent Fundamental Baptist church usher called the police on me when I visited his church and was communicating with his daughter which I knew when she was a H.A.C. student in Hammond, Indiana. This was in Missouri. I rebuked the man for his hard heartedness but assured him that I would not attempt to see his daughter because I regognized he had authority even though his daughter was an adult.

In Oregon an Independent Fundamental Baptist pastor wrote my Oregon pastor and told him that he was going to call the police on me if I should visit his church again. I spoke to his secretary two brief times while visiting his church. I asked her about her husband and she told me she was widowed for 4 years. I wanted to introduce her to a man of my church whose wife left him with 2 daughters. I did not get bitter, I gave in to the pastor’s wishes and never returned to his church nor did I communicate with that woman again. I did, however, rebuke him to his face when I met him in Tacoma, Washington at a preacher’s conference.

You sir, are certainly misbehaving as a Christian, condemning the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement because of your bitterness stemming from your lack of spiritual understanding of the order of church government. The pastor is the bishop of the church under Christ!

He is to govern the operation of the local church and we are to obey him as we are spiritually discerned that he is following Christ! “Obey them that have the rule over you, amd submit yourselves: as they must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” Hebrews 11:17.

You surely are grieving those who have attempted to show you the truth of Christian living as we are to live through the government of the local church!

William M. Jackson

Just stumbled on your website. I came out of the IFB denomination about 5yrs ago. What helped me more than anything was the Spirit of God using godly influences in my life. I highly recommend Bob George’s website RealAnswers.net – People to People radio broadcast. Starg with his article on 1 John 1:9 and his books ‘Classic Christianity’ & ‘Growing in Grace’. I will never go back to an IFB mentality again, God be my strength. Once your eyes are open to the legalism & performance based acceptance, it is sickening to see others overcome by it.

Thank you for your web site. I am a former IFB (14 years) who has been miserable most of my Christian life because of them. All the things you list are true about the ones I went to. They condemned me for wearing pants, yet a young lovely could prance around in skimpy clothes; they assumed all single women are on the prowl; it was the married women in the church who had the prominent affairs. The song leader/youth leader was openly sleeping with the teenage girls. A deacons wife stole money from the offering plates but this was covered up whereas they would expose anyone listening to christian rock. Over 50% of the teen girls were pregnant out of wedlock right after graduation even though they wore modest coulottes etc. all the time (unless they were attractive, then they could wear whatever). The pastor was “good friends” with a women not his wife and would visit her alone at her home all the time. Another pastor left his wife for a teen girl. The teen girls took nude pictures of each other; one became a lesbian later on. Some of the boys secretly carried switchblades and did drugs outside of church. All of this and yet this church had the audacity to declare it was more biblical than any “liberal” church around and had the “true faith”. I have found after leavint this church that most IFB churches are exactly like this and finally got brave enough to leave them altogether. Thank God!

I REALLY FEEL SORRY FOR YOU SIR. I HOPE THAT ONE DAY BEFORE YOU DIE THAT YOU WILL COME UNDER CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND REPENT,BEFORE IT IS ETRNALLY TOO LATE. THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST…I AM TNE WAY,THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE,NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.

KJ :
Thank you for your web site. I am a former IFB (14 years) who has been miserable most of my Christian life because of them. All the things you list are true about the ones I went to. They condemned me for wearing pants, yet a young lovely could prance around in skimpy clothes; they assumed all single women are on the prowl; it was the married women in the church who had the prominent affairs. The song leader/youth leader was openly sleeping with the teenage girls. A deacons wife stole money from the offering plates but this was covered up whereas they would expose anyone listening to christian rock. Over 50% of the teen girls were pregnant out of wedlock right after graduation even though they wore modest coulottes etc. all the time (unless they were attractive, then they could wear whatever). The pastor was “good friends” with a women not his wife and would visit her alone at her home all the time. Another pastor left his wife for a teen girl. The teen girls took nude pictures of each other; one became a lesbian later on. Some of the boys secretly carried switchblades and did drugs outside of church. All of this and yet this church had the audacity to declare it was more biblical than any “liberal” church around and had the “true faith”. I have found after leavint this church that most IFB churches are exactly like this and finally got brave enough to leave them altogether. Thank God!

That is GREAT!
Good for you for escaping the trap of abusive, controlling religion!
Hypocrisy does abound in many of those groups….very sad.
I pretty much avoid “religion”…too much confusion, they’re all fighting one another, even the “christian” denominations with each other!

and I absolutely abhor the “we’re doing true religion better than anyone else” shit. YUCK!
Keep walking the road of freedom…
which I think can be a lonely road.

Dear Steve,

I am sorry that you feel this way about IFB churches. However, I cannot find any purpose in creating a website that leads others away from the Lord. I am sorry for all of you on here who have had bad experiences. Although I have never experienced anything remotely close to the problems listed here during my membership, I regret that you guys have. “Hypocrisy abounds” everywhere, we are a fallen people. If you find a rotten church, and they are most certainly out there, look for another. But look at the people who have written you, one admits to feeling let down by God, another doubts His existence, and another says they will never enter another church. Please be careful that your discontent with your church and you desire to post about it on the internet has not in fact enlarged hell by those who were perhaps once closer to salvation. Yes, the IFB churches have a dress code, and a moral code; but so does God, be sure not to confuse man’s condemnation with the Holy Spirit speaking through them.

And yet oddly enough, the only people you have publicly responded to on this page are to those you feel you must defend yourself. The people crying out and searching, what have you done to help bring them closer to Lord? Regardless of denomination or the lack thereof, I see no uplifting comments to those who are ready to abandon all faith.

That is precisely why I say “publicly”. In my very statement I acknowledged that you perhaps spoke to them privately. However, what about those who only read you page without posting any comment, and never saw those things that you wrote to uplift people. I am not hateful or abusive, nor do I wish to see anyone hated or abused. But if you want to actually help people perhaps you should allow for the possibility of “viewers only” to see what you recommend as an alternate to Indepenent Fundamental Baptist churches. Do I believe you have to go to an IFB church to be saved, no. Baptist, no. You actually do not have to attend church at all. But lost sinners need to be saved and that should be your goal; that is the ultimate “good that this site” could do.
I agree with you that most situations in life can be responded to logically and rationally, but I fail to see that in all of the comments with which you have responded. So far you have called me ignorant, a perpetuator of hate and abuse, and closed minded. I am not close minded, I am narrow-minded.

“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Matthew 7:14

With all do respect sir, you always ask others if they have read your site, and I ask you the same thing. On other pages, I have asked questions. Here is another one. You are driving down the road, you see a sign. The sign reads narrow ahead and cautions you to “slow down”, so you do and slowly make your way through. I guarantee that if it said “road closed”, you would not slow down, you would stop and most likely turn around. Narrow and closed are two different definitions.
Narrow: -adj limited in range or scope
Closed: -adj brought to a close
I am narrow minded in that if the scripture does not back it up, I refuse to believe it.

Hi Steve, you are obviously hitting on some nerves with this site and I say keep pounding away. The truth is never easy to accept and painful to be faced with. If you want to know the truth of the IFB, look to it’s fruits. I grew up in the IFBC and was later sent to an IFB boarding school for ‘rebellious’ teen girls. We are not talking about drugs or boys…I was guilty of talking back to my parents and listening to the devils music. This school was like jumping from the frying pan into the fire. They would deny meals for failing to memorize scripture. I learned to memorize the words out of necessity, but the meaning behind the words became void. They used humiliation to break the will, I think in the hopes that the broken spirit would be more manageable to God. I was called worthless and undesirable. I was constantly compared or referred to as a harlot or a slut. I was beaten down, tortured and humiliated all in the name of God. Why would God want anything to do with me? By the time I left I was so beaten down spiritually that it was easier to turn my back on God for good then continue trying to please a God who hated and despised me.

Hey Steve,

Thanks for putting this out in the public domain. We left an IFB church on June 1st, 2009. There are so many similarities in the stories I hear from people that it is scary. I truly believe many of these so-called churches are actually cults. The god of thse churches isn’t God at all.

Anyway thanks for the time and courage it took to help educate people.

@KR
“Can’t find a purpose in creating a website that leads others to away from the Lord”

You perpetuate the “circle of silence” that IFB churches love to use to keep their dirty laundry private.
You judge the motives for this website without any basis in fact.

Comment moved by the site moderator. Please click here to see the comment and a reply from the site owner.

I GO TO A INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCH, AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM THERE WHATSOEVER. I AM NEW TO THIS THOUGH, BUT THEY TEACH THE WAY TO HEAVEN, IT IS FAR FROM A CULT. IF IT WASN’T FOR THE INDEPENDENT FUNDAMNETAL BAPTIST, I WOULDN’T BE WHERE I AM TODAY. UNDERSTANDABLY CHURCH DOESENT SAVE YOU, BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST DOES. NO ONE CAN SAY OTHERWISE. I RESPECT OTHER’S OPINION, BUT WILL HAVE TO SAY I DISAGREE. THERE ARE SOME BAPTIST CHURCHES WHO DON’T TEACH FROM THE SCRIPTURES, BUT IF IT’S THE WORD OF GOD, YOU CAN’T CHANGE THAT, IF YOU DO, YOU ARE A PARTAKER IN TEACHING FALSE WORDS. AGAIN I AM NEW AND I BELIEVE IN THE LORD, AND THATS WHERE MY FAITH WILL STAY.

Steve,

Praise God for what He has done in your life!
I was blessed to read your exit story out of the IFB church.
I especially apreciated your remarks in light of the fact that I was deeply involved the mormon church ( another institutionalized church/cult) and can relate to your thoughts you expressed.

Once a person has been set free from the bondage of legalism and
the cult, grace can begin to work in the heart of that individual and healing can begin.
May God continue to bless you in your healing process,

Gloria

ps. wonderful, wonderful informative site! Thank you!

To JMWJ:

Not sure if you realize that when you write/type in all capital letters it is “screaming” or “yelling”. I think a person can certainly disagree without needing to yell.
Perhaps you didn’t reliaze this.

Kind regards,

It sounds to me like you are 25 years old and are counting all of those 25 years as your “life experience”. It sounds to me like you grew up in a Fundamental Baptist Church, went to college and to graduate school, and now (having your first taste of freedom) realize that there is another world out there. It sounds like you are angry because your parents sheltered you from the world you are now experiencing. IF only we could all be so lucky. I am 25 as well but I am completely opposite of you. I spent the first 18 years of my life as a Roman Catholic, the next five in the Marine Corps (where I seperated from faith completely, traveled extensively, drank, smoked, and went to war), and finally came to my senses and was saved in a Fundamental Baptist Church. Due to my background I have a very questioning and naturally doubting mind yet at every turn I have found that our fundamental teachings do not stray. The fundamental part is exactly why they do not stray. It sounds to me that you need to gain a little perspective on life but I am positive that you will return to where you have strayed. What you are doing is nothing new and nothing different. It is in fact quite natural. My prayers are with you.

Steve,
Thank you for this site exposing the fatal flaws of fundamentalism. I have been debating/dialoging with online fundamentalists for over five years, and completely concur with your conclusions. I believe the most outstanding characteristic of fundamentalism is its lack of charity, which leads to all sorts of other unpleasant characteristics.

I am a convert to Catholicism, and the hatred of the Catholic church by fundamentalists never ceases to amaze me. As you say, misconception, misinterpretation, and falsehood seems to be passed on from Bible school to pastor, to church member and is swallowed whole because “that’s what Pastor says”.

Keep up the good work, Steve.

I joined my first IFB church while I was in the Navy in Long beach, back in 1987, and have been in many since, both as member and as a visitor. I have seen both good and bad leadership in them, oppressive and liberating. The key phrase in the IFB churches is “Independent”. Being a divorced man, I have known what it was to be treated as though I had committed the unforgivable sin, and have also been taught that even the worst of sin is still a sin to be brought under the blood of Christ, and both in IFB churches. It seems to me that you have thrown out the baby with the bath water. The IFB movement began because some preachers saw how the word of God was being lessened and questioned, and the churches were going liberal, so they began the fundamentalist movement, seeking to move back to historic, fundamental practices and principles. Some have gone into legalism, to be sure, and others have allowed in the very liberalism they sought to avoid, but there are many godly, loving IFB churches that teach pure doctrines of the word of God, above their own traditions. That’s why, after many years in the IFB churches, I am still in one, and am the pastor of it. I have dealt with some who think my church is a bunch of weirdos who don’t fit the IFB mold, because we’re rural, with lots of, let’s say, ‘mental issues’-former drug abusers and alcoholics, dirt-poor desert rats and fetal alcohol adults. But we love them, lead them to the Lord and teach them to do the same. Don’t judge the whole by the few. And those who have left churches and feel free outside, remember, the church is not the building, but the body of Christ, of which you need to be a part. if you aren’t a part of Him, what are you? that isn’t liberty, but license.

I feel for you brother and am glad I did not have your experiances as basically God wired me in a way to really oppose and fight-if I was in your shoes-I do not know but I have always been a fighter in a certain way. Maybe my own self eesteem issues in the past or from a broken home but I always wandered why when I left an IFB church or institution-Why did I leave on bad terms? Of course as honestly seeking the Lord-I found this was a you problem and not a me problem.
God bless
David emme

You’ve shared many important reasons why you put on this site that I want to call re-attention to a couple in my words:
1.Sin is something God died for–Sin HURTS people…we’re not to make ‘light’ of it–whether it is in the flock or in the ‘pastor’.(and most especially if it is in the pastor)…for instead of holding himself up on his untouchable ‘throne of Diotrephes’, throwing down judgmental lightning bolts (and we’re not talking about judging being ‘discernment of wrong doctrine’ here–but wrongly judging the motives, intents and thoughts of another’s heart which God has told us NOT to do)–the Bible tells a preacher to “LEAD by example”! The Flock needs to see that God does NOT have ‘double standards’–He is no respecter of persons. A preacher (who should be a ‘leader’ and an example–NOT an over-lord) should be the very first person to have a heart that is ‘broken and contrite’ by his own sin. That kind of example would help others (who see that servant/humble Spirit of Jesus–open their hearts to the Lord and come under conviction of their own sins.
2. The devil also could quote a lot of Scripture ‘at’ Jesus, but Jesus showed us that there were other Scriptures to counter the devil’s taking things out of context for his wrong motives. So any amount of justifying of sin by a preacher doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in God’s sight. True love for a preacher and the flock holds him accountable now…and addresses sin–NOW…before more damage is done to others.
3. “Learn of Me for I am meek and lowly” Jesus said. So HOW can a ‘preacher’pastor teach ANYthing about our Lord if he hangs onto His sin of pride. Jesus didn’t worry about His reputation Philippians beautifully tells us–and tells us to have His same attitude of heart.
So preachers who don’t get right with God in this manner–who will not even consider that they, too, ‘could have blind spots’ (LOGS in their eyes)-aren’t fit for the position of ‘preacher/pastor’.

Another way to put it: (I like the KJV on these words especially).

The Bible warns us to stay away from preachers who cannot have a sensitivity to their own inflicting of harm or hurt, for these are just a bunch of NOISE! 1Timothy 1:6 calls them VAIN JANGLERS and 1Cor.13:1 TINKLING CYMBALS So while they pride themselves that they are they only ones who ‘care’ and share the Gospel, all their NOISE gets in the way of lost people hearing and understanding the true Gospel; for God slso declares that He is love and see to it that we love each other fervently.1Peter 1:22 and by the way: Making false accusations DOES NOT EQUAL “love”, dear preachers! (but is breaking one of the Ten Commandments for you guys who want to exalt “law”.

When I started reading this column I thought, uhm?! Is this William Miller?; then I thought, nah it’s gotta be Joseph Smith, Jr. So, I suppose next time I read about you, it will be about a new Christian movement with your name attached?? I feel very badly for you. You are a very angry person. Ecclesiastes 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools. You “followed” the “hypocrites” for 25 years uhm? You grew up believing that you had to act, dress, behave, talk and sing a certain way in order to be accepted by God. I don’t know what your bible says (you still believe the Word of God?!), but God is a god of specificity. He does indeed instruct “His people” to talk, sing dress, act and behave a certain way. If He says it I believe it. And as angry as you are, you are counseling people. That’s pretty scary. We will be judge on His rules. Not yours not mine. That’s probably why we call Him God and the rest of us sinners. You’ve strayed.

Steve, keep up the good fight. I’m so thankful for you and your site. I found some resources for you if you don’t know about them already. First is…Matthew Paul Turner. His website: http://www.jesusneedsnewpr.net/ Also if you google Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Cult, there is a facebook page for survivors. I read the book by Michael Yaconelli “Messy Spirituality” from your recommmendations. AWESOME book! Another one that I’m reading now is called “Breaking the Rules: Trading performance for Intimacy with God” By Fil Anderson. Also, anything by Brennan Manning is amazing too!

There is no sense in arguing with the people that don’t agree with you. Wouldn’t arguing be commiting sin anyways? I often think back to when Jesus was here. Did his disciples, the adulterous woman, the woman at the well, Peter who denied Him, etc. have to think about what they were going to wear when they were hanging out with Him? Did they have to be dressed “sharp” to be saved? It breaks my heart as I know it does Jesus’ to have people think they have to perform and dress a certain way for Him to accept them. I know you (Steve) already know this and I’m sure it breaks your heart as well. Matthew 11:28 (New Living Translation) Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest.” Jesus, I pray that You would reveal Your love and grace to everyone that is carrying those heavy burdens of ‘rules’, ‘Performance’, ‘good works’, etc. and that You would give them REST. Thank you Steve!

The God who is not interested in what we wear (according to most of y0u), was very particular about dressing Aaron and his sons. He had a problem with “nakedness”. You know, like they way most people are dressing today.

Exodus 28:42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:

and here we go again:

Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Let’s see, I listen to HIM or I listen to you…..uhm. I think I’ll stick with the one who is and always will be and whose word shall not pass.

Amen!!!! Amen!!!!!! Amen!!!!

@C. Collazo

I certainly don’t thank the person who made this site, EXCUSE ME. BUT THANK YOU FOR STANDING UP FOR THE wORD OF GOD! I’D LIKE TO BE KIND, BUT I WON’T APOLOGIZE FOR WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS! I am sixteen years old, and I go to Blessed Hope Baptist Church in Jasonville, IN. I also attend the school there. I have more to say later, but I have to think about it rationally because this has made me so mad that my heart was pounding earlier. By the way I am not brainwashed and I’m not in a cult. I have made a choice, and you’re making yours.

C. Collazo :The God who is not interested in what we wear (according to most of y0u), was very particular about dressing Aaron and his sons. He had a problem with “nakedness”. You know, like they way most people are dressing today.
Exodus 28:42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:
and here we go again:
Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
Let’s see, I listen to HIM or I listen to you…..uhm. I think I’ll stick with the one who is and always will be and whose word shall not pass.

The thing I find interesting about this mindset, C. Collazo, is that the IFB picks and chooses what verses from the Old Testament ceremonial laws they will follow. Why do you emphasize ONLY verse 5 in that chapter? What about verse 6: “If a bird’s nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam with the young:” or verse 8 or verses 11-12: “11Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together. Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself.” Why are you (and the IFB) so concerned with verse 5 of that chapter and not the rest?

Deuteronomy 22 is a chapter about the ceremonial laws that God’s chosen had to follow during their time period. When Jesus came to earth the ceremonial laws were abolished. You may want to read up on the NT teachings of ceremonial laws. The IFB gets this VERY wrong. NT Christians (that’s us) don’t have to follow those ceremonial laws of the OT. We are no longer under the Old Covenant. We are New Covenant Christians. NT Christians are ruled by grace and mercy NOT law.

The same is true with Exodus. The author of Exodus is recording a conversation between God and Moses in chapter 28. This is NOT a message to NT Christians. These are laws given to the people of that time period.

You really need to brush up on your knowledge of the Bible. It’s sad to me that you are so bound by a legalistic righteousness. I hope that one day you will experience freedom in Christ.

Ms. Susan. I chose these passages, because they are written in the Bible and were directly relative to the point that a prior writer made. Although, as you point out, I “need to brush up on my knowledge of the Bible”, which, if I understand your “mindset” is only comprised of the New Testament. I thought the Bible started with Genesis and ended with Revelations. And I know, I read somewhere that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit in its entirety. Well, maybe partially, according to your mindset. Apparently, God was on a mission to confuse mankind with these “Old Testament ceremonial laws” that don’t even apply. I wonder why He included them anyway? But, as you say, “IFB picks and chooses what verses from the Old Testament ceremonial laws they will follow”; although you NTers go a little further and just obliterate Books that do not reflect or agree with your mindset. I must admit one thing, this is the first time I have ever heard that the book of Exodus is just a conversation between God and Moses; thereby, excerpting or putting aside this Book as, not necessarily applicable to today’s Christianity (per your mindset). What I can’t understand is what happened to Jesus?!! He kept quoting the Old Testament to everyone He met. Did He not know that grace and mercy had kicked in and He was no longer under the Laws of the Old Testament? So you say, “NT Christians are ruled by grace and mercy NOT law”. If I understand it correctly, the Ten Commandments are laws written in that passé Book called “Exodus” and I believe repeated elsewhere in the Old Testament; but then again you are not under the “laws”. So which law and which prophets was Jesus referring to in Matthew 5:17, 5:18 and 5:19? (Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.) But then again, Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Your sarcasm and attacks only go to show your inability to have a rational discussion.

You didn’t answer my question. Why do you pull out some of the ceremonial laws in Deuteronomy and Exodus about clothes and such but ignore others. Deuteronomy 21:19-22 for example: 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: Would you seriously tell me that if you had a son and he was rebellious you would follow this ceremonial law and have the elders of your church stone him to death?

I will educate you on one thing though. The Ten Commandments aren’t ceremonial laws they are moral laws. That’s a good example of why I said you should brush up on your knowledge of the Bible. You can’t even distinguish between ceremonial law and moral law.

Yes, you are right, Jesus came to FULFILL the law. That means “to accomplish the purpose of” or to “satisfy” or “to bring to an end, finish or complete, as in a period of time”. That means that the law has been replaced by the grace and blood of Christ so that we are no longer required to follow the law of Moses. Ceremonial laws were about cleanliness. The ceremonial laws acted as the blood of Christ. When Christ died on the cross his blood now covers our sins and we are no longer required to follow ritualistic ceremonial laws to cover our sins. This is a Huge interpretation error of the IFB.

I’ll refer you to the prophesy by Jeremiah – Jeremiah 31:31-34

Susan,
Please read my first sentence. There I answer your question as to why I chose those verses. Of course the blood of Christ covers us from our sins and we are no longer required to follow ritualistic ceremonial laws. However, IFB Christians do not have a license to go on and do whatever feels good. I’ve visited many NTrs churches and frankly I saw no difference between being at a rock concert and being in church. The music is loud; and that’s my opinion. But of course, in your opinion that portrays me as “irrational and sarcastic”. I’ve seen women in micro minis, men in shorts and sandals and just absolutely no difference between them and the decadent wordliness around. The majority of the youth are exhibiting their Tattoos. Even city courts have a dress code, not the NTrs. I bet you if they were asked to have lunch at the White House, they’d put on their best rags. But, again, as you specifically pointed out above, you are not under the law. And I say to you, Susan, let IFBrs go on loving the Lord, serving Him and rejoicing in their Salvation. The only one who is right is Jesus Christ; and to Him be all the Power and Glory forever and ever.

Your first sentence doesn’t answer my question. My question is “Why do you pull out some of the ceremonial laws in Deuteronomy and Exodus about clothes and such but ignore others. “ I’ll ask it another way, if you follow what’s written in the Bible why do you then accept some of the ceremonial laws while ignoring others?

I don’t understand your way of thinking. What’s wrong with micro minis, men in shorts and sandals and having tattoos? Because they look like the secular world? How ridiculous. I would venture a guess that you live in a house do you not? Well those in the secular society live in houses so does that mean you are acting like the secular society? The secular society eats out at restaurants and watches TV and movies. Do you eat at restaurants and watch TV and movies? If so then you are acting like the secular world – shame on you.

We would dress up for a visit to the White House out of respect for the president and concern for those around who might be judging us (hmmmm… sounds familiar to the IFB eh?). (By the way, I’ve been to the White House in shorts and sandals and no one cared). God doesn’t demand that type of honor. He tells us to “come just as you are”. Nothing is required for us to worship or to make God like us more. You are being fed a lie by the IFB that we need to act, dress, sing, worship, etc. a certain way for God. That is not true.

Secular society stays away from church because of stuffy “Christians” like yourself who judge people that don’t ‘do church’ the way you (and the IFB) demand they ‘do church’. To me, that’s more damaging to the cause of Christ then people wearing shorts and mini skirts to church.

This is classic majoring on the minors. The IFB is notorious for that. It’s sad and SINFUL to judge people based on how they worship and what they wear. I would encourage you to take the log out of your own eye before you try and take the speck out of someone else’s eye.

Susan, of course you see nothing wrong with mini skirts, nudity, tattoos and the like, you’re too far gone into the world to even minimally comprehend the meaning of “sanctity”. And, what a ridiculous example you set. A house is a material object made by human hands. Man is a creation of God made in His image; the temple of the living God; if that person has been saved. You are so hung up on stuffy Christians as you so kindly define any Christian who wants to differentiate him/or herself from the wicked world, that you have become insensitive. It’s “sad and sinful to judge people” you say. Read what you write, every word you write is selectively judgmental. You’ve lost touch. If God can’t make you see your error, far be it from me to try:

Matthew7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I cannot believe you do not see the fact that your negativity on the church is drawing people away from the church. You want to make the claim that people need to look deeper into your public opinions and the fact of the matter is most will not study it in its entirety. Comments from both sides of the fence seem limited in what your faith and beliefs are. Some are struggling with faith in Christ and you have given them more reason to be. I would hope our true focus in these end days (in times when we will be lovers of knowledge) would be to win souls not focus on emotional hang ups which EVERYONE HAS!!!! I am so grateful for the SAVING KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST regardless of man’s fallacies. GOD IS SO GOOD AND MAY HIS NAME BE PRAISED!!!!!!

@C. Collazo Can you give some specifics on where in the Word it says how we’re supposed to “talk, sing dress, act and behave a certain way?” etc. Can you be very specific as to why someone can’t listen to say, bluegrass gospel instead of the old hymns? Can you tell where in the Word it says that a born again Christian has to tithe or be harmed by the destroyer? Can you show us where in the Bible it says men have to wear a suit and tie to church? Can you tell us about where the Bible it says “the head of every man is Christ” and not your pastor. How about Matthew chapters 20 and 23 where the Lord tells our leaders to be servants and not worry about titles? (Please forgive me for sounding a little hateful or impatient. I’ve had these rules pushed on me for years without someone giving me a good biblical answer instead of their own opinion.)

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.

14 And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

@C. Collazo
I should have said this before, Mr. Collazo, but my viewpoint on many practices and beliefs in the Church are fairly conservative. I don’t like men wearing shorts in church, I think woman should cover their bodies. I’m not a fan of contemporary Christian music (especially stuff with drums), I respect the role of the Pastor, and I think that many, many Baptist churches are doing good work. So, I’m not what you would consider a liberal by any stretch. That being said, you never really answered my questions. Please answer my questions regarding traditional hymns being the only “right” kind of music, men being required to wear suits at church, Christians being instructed to tithe a minimum of 10%, and the questions about titles and leadership. I understand how some people will glean their beliefs from certain scriptures, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re correct. (I think it’s called a “private interpretation.”)
The Scriptures you reference do make mention of how a woman should dress, but the only thing it gets specific about is the broided hair, gold, pearls, and costly array. and your other Scriptures make mention of many good things, but they don’t specifically or directly answer my questions or many of the questions raised on this site. At most IFB churches, clapping is highly discouraged if not downright forbidden . I’m pretty sure that Scripture does not agree with this. (I’m talking about clapping DURING the music.)
I think one of the problems is that many people (regardless of what church they go to) will take their personal beliefs and preferences and try to use Scripture to force them on other Christians. Doesn’t the Bible say that we’re allowed a certain aount of freedom according to our conscience? (Romans 14 & 15, 1 Cor. 8, 1 Cor. 10:23-33, Col. 2:16)

I was interested in the comments of ukulelemike.How was he ever allowed to be a pastor in an IfB Church.Divorce seems to be a road block to most of those who desire to pastor in that denomination.I understand they believe in perpetual adultery with no cure for the guilty parties.I would truly love to see the pros and cons on this issue from some folks who have a real grasp of comparative scripture analysis, and not just personal opinion.What sins are not covered by I John 1:7&9? Was the woman at the well in John 4 still in perpetual adultery after her conversion? What is the bibical difference between pardon and forgivness.Was king David a perpetual adulterer after psalm 51? Was king Solomon considered illlegitimate because of David’s sin?

My son,his wife and my 2 granddaughters attend a Baptist church with the independent belief.I attend a pentcoastal church.I have attended baptist churches in the past so I am familiar.I am proud my son is serving God but alot of things ppl.have written on here about the baptist beliefs,I see with my son.There is some differences.Apparently my sons church believes once saved always saved.And there is no backsliding or losing your salvation.If this happens to you,it just means you were never really saved.They believe in soulwinning.And that is fine except when they go knock on doors and talk to ppl. about being saved.The 1st 30 minutes or more is teling you about hell and if you don’t get saved you will be burning for eternity.And if and when you decide at that moment to become saved will they tell you about Jesus and all the wonderful things God will bless you with in heaven.Don’t get me wrong hell is real and I believe we need to be told and taught that.I believe we all as christians have worked to do and telling others about Jesus is one of those jobs.But I believe the message about Jesus doesn’t change but how you delieverd to others is a different story.I believe you tell the whole messages and not withhold based on if someone decides to get saved or not at that moment.I wear pants and skirts to church.I wear make-up.I wear my wedding ring and mothers ring.I also believe in a dress code somewhat.I believe if you are serving God then you know what to wear and what not to wear.And God will put it in your heart if what you are wearing is ok.It says in the bible and it has been written on hear many times already about broided hair,gold and modesty.We are not to wear such things as to draw attention to us and off God.We are not to wear things that causes man to lust because men are easy to lust.And that is in the bible.So if I come in the church with my cleavage exposed or my behind hanging out,then I’m wrong for that.But if I come in church with a pair of pants or even capris on and say a pink shirt not a gray or black shirt,that covers me in ok manner,then I’m good.My sons church believes that as christians we should stand out among the rest.And they do it by what they wear but I believe we stand out by our words and love for Jesus.We don’t have to make others feel like we are better than them.Because it wasn’t the pharisees and the supposely Godly men that Jesus was sitting and breaking bread,it was the taxman,the prostitutes,etc.The sinners I do believe.Because he was treated like a sinner by these religous so called men of God in his day.My son tells me that I’m not saved because I wear pants,make-up.Ilisten to bluegrass gospel,I like casting crowns,third day.I like alot of diffrent gospel music.I even like hymn music.We sing out of hymn books at church to but we have praise and worship music.I clap my hands,I lift my hands,i tap my feet.I enjoy praising God.My son talks down to me like I’m beneath him now.He dont curse or anything like that but he is constantly judging other denonminations.According to his church if your not baptist or darn near close to it,you are gonna burn in hell.And that is all him or his church talks about is hell,hell and more hell.Yes hell should be talked about and taught,I agree but so should be Jesus.My daughter had a baby in June,well my son’s pastors son went to the hospitial at my sons request.Well he told them that was a happy and wonderful thing to bring a new life in this world.But there was something more important to think about than a new life and that was death.And where they would end up if death came and they were lost in their sin.Come on now.That was uncalled for.Their holding their newborn in their arms and he trys to steal their joy with his words.I love my son and I want him to serve God.I want all my children to serve God but I just don;t know.My son has 2 daughters.Well his pastor has 5 children and his children have 5 children.Now my son wants 5 children.My son walks and talks like them.They don’t come off genuine to me.There almost all robotic.I went to see him babptized at his church.You have a man stand and direct you to sing.He would say this side sing this verse and this side this verse.We couldnt just sing,even that had to be controlled.And he said after we sing this song,everybody will walk around and greet each other.And thats ok to fellowship and talk to each other.But we had to sing a song 1st,then we had to shake an greet and get back to our seats.We have rules and guidlines to go buy under God,I believe that.But God is not a God they make him out to be.God is just and fair.He isn’t sitting with a frown on his face in Heaven waitig to see who he can scratch off his list.He is aloving God that is trying his best to get us in heaven but he did us free will.So if we die in our sin and go to hell remember God didn’t send us there.We sent ourselves.I believe that but I believe certain religions can leave a bad taste in ppls.mouth about God.And they will be jugde on that themselves to.Don’t get me wrong the word of God will step on ppls.toes because they don’t want to hear the truth about God and what he says.And that is different from what I mean by bad taste in mouths.I will not say all baptist but my son and his pastor and pastor family are just not sitting well with me.I know my story isnr as extreme as some on here but me and my son can’t even talk hardly anymore because of the stuff he says.He already has us burning in hell because we are not a baptist and live the way the baptist say we should live.

Steve, I appreciate your opinion on the IFB as I have experienced some of the things you speak of, however, I would like to also mention other churches of of demoninations and how they treat people, I speak especially about “Women” of the churches. I have visited churches and not ONE women spoke to me let alone welcomed me. I think people get high mined in their own spirituality and that they “have arrived” so to speak about their relationship with the Lord. I know to have friends we must first show ourselves friendly. I think alot of women in churches are a bunch a phoneies. They could care less about people. I have longed to have a friend, someone that loves God and wants to serve him. I have found no such person, so I feel very lonely for true fellowship among women, I don’t trust them and I think they want to make themselves feel on a higher plan than others. God help their feeble attempts of being a “Godly Women”. I am glad I have a Father in Heaven that can meet my needs according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Women, wake up do what God wants you to do. Make yourselves friendly and a help to those in need……

Hi Steve,
I’m a former Mormon and but God saved me years ago as I was intending to serve an LDS Mission. I ended being baptized in a really wishy-washy CBA Baptist Church that was so extremely broad new evangelical that it stood for absolutely nothing. The Pastor there even ended up joining the Roman Catholics! I was so really glad to have a IFB church to “escape” to back then. The Pastor and church were very much a Blessing to me then because otherwise I think I would have giving up on going to church all together like you have. I’ve moved on now but I still have a very friendly relationship with my former Pastor and the church and they always make feel welcome when I go back to visit. I’m sorry you had such a bad expirience in a IFB Church. I considered my expirience in the IFB like going to “boot camp” to help me to become a better warrior for Christ. Steve, please study your Bible more carefully and what true Baptist History really is and maybe you to will have a different point of view of your expirience of your IFB church also?
Lord Bless!
Dean

Dean maybe you should try studying about Jesus and his history it will be much more beneficial than studying Baptist history. Jesus’ history is about God, Baptist history is about man.

Dean, I don’t remember Steve saying that he has given up on church all together. It’s a shame that your IFB experiences have taught you to judge others. One of the reasons I stay far away form the IFB

Dean,

I was so quick to respond with the above that I failed to congratulate you on escaping from the mormon cult and to welcome you into the family of God.

Don’t know how much you have read on this site, but this site ministers to hurting folks all over the world that were hurt and wounded by legalistic independent fundamental baptist churches. Some of those type churches are obviously worse than others. I hope you have found a good one, but as Katie pointed out, its very obvious that you are “infected” with legalism based on how you have thrown your judgement down on Steve.

Just read over the next couple of days some of the comments on this site, you will see a very familiar pattern emerge of spiritual abuse foisted opon many of us.

Whom the Lord sets free is free indeed, and that’ll preach!

Steve, After reading through your site, I have come to the
realization that you are dealing with the personal spirit of
bitterness. Let me give you some of my background. I was in an
independent fundamental baptist church 9 months before I was born.
I have been in one all of my life. I am now the pastor of and “IFB”
church. I know many people who have been hurt over the years. Many
of them were close family friends. The problem is this, they are
still stuck on the fact that that certain church and pastor were so
“legalistic” that they felt they could not be good enough for the
Lord. I knew this mindset myself. But I turned to my King James
Bible and the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart. I quit worrying about
what the standards of the church were, and I realized that the
“standards” would come naturally to me as I followed Christ. Why?
Because I wanted to be closer to Him! Many pastors that I know have
learned from our “forefathers” and the fact that you attract more
flies with honey than you do with vinegar. They are letting the
Holy Spirit convict hearts while lovingly preaching the Whole
Counsel of God. I have found that many people really do not want to
make a change for the Lord. They want to be “who they are” and
still have God in their life. The Bible says that when we are
saved, that old things are passed away and all things are become
new. We are given a new life in Christ. A life that He paid for
with His own blood! Shouldn’t I want to be closer to Him? The
closer I get to Him, the more people I’ll draw to Him. Be careful
on this site that you don’t give an “out” to those who are just
looking for an excuse to “write God off.” I know you have been
hurt, but it is time to move on. Get in your Bible and through the
“one interpretation, but many applications” try to be a help those
who may be hurting from a bad experience with “IFB” churches. From
what I’ve read of you on this site, you’re willing to argue your
point to the end. You’re not willing to accept someone else’s
opinion against yours otherwise you would not have this site.
You’re willing to question everything and all because this site is
dedicated to “your own personal” conflict. It is refreshingly
apparent to me that you still care about the Lord, but you will not
grow in the Lord until you give your being hurt to Him and move on.
Why don’t you take what you have learned and “mix it with faith”
and go on and grow in the Lord? Thanks for letting me post this,
ALG

I believe in God and have experienced first hand his power.
My experience with a fundamental baptist church has been
disheartening. A close relative of mine is a member of this
fundamentalist baptist church in granite bay ca. They do not
celebrate any religious holidays as do most other christian
churches. Nor do they celebrate anyones birthday. Recently my
family member suffered a stroke was deemed incompetent by his
neurologist at hospital.Another fam,ily member made the mistake of
calling their pastor to the hospital thinking my relative might
die. This pastor visited said a short prayer and then proceeded to
ask the stroke patient for monies due his church. Several days
later he returns to hospital with several deacons as witnesses
coercing my relative into giving everything they and their spouse
own to this church pastor. The pastor has now put his name and
several deacons name on my relatives account is running the
business into the ground. For nine months we his family have been
fighting them in court. they made up lies against the non church
member spouse who my relative was living with prior to the stroke.
This LMMBC took out a restraining order saying the spouse had not
fed or taken care of my relative. ALL LIES! The spouse took my
relative to three ER before one would admit them for observation
and tests. My relative stroked out the next day. The house was full
of food they both had eaten dinner and breakfast out the day before
my relative signed the CC bill. My relative could not physically
even copy his initials on papers this pastor had drawn up. Nor
could they speak more than gerbils. Legally anything they have done
is under scrutiny of federal bankruptcy laws time is slowly
crawling through the legal system while this church takes the
monies destroys a once viable business brainwashes my relatives
mind with lies fear and hatred keeps them away from the spouse
family and outsider church friends all under the guise of god. This
is not right and being fundamentalist they have no federation of
church overseers. In the bible it does make note of end times false
churches this is one of them. Why does not christian churches
govern themse3lves to protect this from happening. I imagine this
pastor is mailorder as I cannot believe this would happen with a
real man of god.

How tragic Steve. Your parents would be heartbroken. Jesus’
is. My family grew up in a great IFB church (you know the church
Steve) with a precious Pastor who was not at all a dictator nor did
he Lord over God’s heritage. In my estimation, bitterness and
rebellion to the truth is what leads people to this kind of
reckless agenda to discredit a group of believers who, yes, have
within them SOME men bereft of character and perhaps even without
true conversion. However, Your father was not one of those men, nor
was mine. They were true men of God who loved God’s people and gave
their lives to proclaim the truth. The scriptures overwhelmingly
condemn what you are doing and I assure you, our chief Commander
and Shepherd would not join you in your efforts. I am saddened to
NOT see the gospel on your front page. The disciples spoke of a
group in their day who were casting our demons and doing works for
the Lord but they were not “of them”. Jesus said “forbid them not”
Paul said about the men in Acts “leave them alone”. Paul wouldn’t
do what you are doing, certainly Jesus wouldn’t. Jesus was too
consumed with getting people the Gospel. He exposed the LOST
religious pharisees of his day but you never saw Jesus attacking
any group. IFB groups have been historically guilty of this,
attacking those with whom they do not agree. Listen IFB churches
and the like, shut-up, quit your griping and preach the Gospel!
Perhaps the Gospel is what you should direct your greatest efforts
toward. This world is dying and going to Hell and Christians want
to waste time quibbling on web sites about who is right and who is
wrong. PREACH the GOSPEL. That is what this world needs. What is
tragic is that when a lost person comes on here and reads what some
of these alledged Christians write they no doubt want to run away
from this worldy contention. To those who have been hurt by a
church – I too have been hurt. Imeasurably! By carnal, ungoldly,
IFB Christians. I will not hold their actions against all other IFB
Christians. I will not talk of it here because to do so would be
worng. Why? It is under the blood! I have forgiven them because I
love my Lord too much to harbor any bitterness toward any person. I
think of all Jesus has forgiven me of and I find it very easy to
forgive those who have hurt me. Be ye kind one to another,
tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ’s sake
hath forgiven you. Let me say to any reader who may not know Christ
- The christian life is NOT about rules a regulations, it is about
a PERSON. The sweetest person you will ever know, the LOrd Jesus
Christ. He died, was buried and rose again and is ALIVE so that he
might have a relationship with you and wash away your sins. He has
gone to prepare a place for you in heaven and he is coming back one
day. Oh how I wish you would receive him as your payment for sin!
See John 3, Rom. 3:23, Rom. 6:23 and Rom. 10:9-10 Jesus said “And
I, if I be lifted UP from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
While Jesus is speaking of his death, it applies to today. Lets all
stop lifting up our agenda, our ideas and our opinions. Lets lift
up Jesus. This world in decaying around us, Jesus is coming soon.
We must go and tell them! Please note – I will not respond to any
post made to argue what I have stated above. The truth does not
need debated, It only needs proclaimed!

I was in an IFB church and school for several years as well. I had discovered that beneath the surface, the formula for their success was “inspired” if you want to call it that, from a different religion altogether! More of a circus than a church, and they put on a show that robbed people of millions of dollars and misled thousands of souls. I also believe that they send out “missions” teams to try to intimidate those who speak up about their operations — in other words, they pay groups of shady characters to gang up on their critics. From its beginning to the end that will be disclosed one day, I do believe they are not God’s favorite sons in the church industry. This website is good; keep it up for a long time.

Greg,
You are correct and I should have been more clear about what I meant that I would not argue about. What I say is not truth in itself, but rather what the scripture says. So far as my statement about what stands – let me be as clear as possible. What was stated about the Gospel and the scriptures is what needs no argument in my mind. I did not intend to convey that I am truth or what I say is truth, my greater intent was to state that I did not wish to argue with anyone.

If someone is saved, they have the Holy Spirit to guide them. Just be sure you are in fellowship with him. Bitterness, unforgivenss, anger, malice, all of these grieve him and we thus are not in fellowship with him.

“If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another…” I Jn 1:7

GET THE GOSPEL OUT TO THIS LOST AND DYING WORLD! JESUS IS COMING SOON!

R.G.Tharp – I must say I like the tone of your comment this time alot better than your first. I guess I will take a stab about answering some of your judgemental attitudes towards Steve as he hasn’t, at least not as of yet.

You say:

1) Steve’s parents and Jesus are heartbroken over what Steve’s doing.
How do you know that Steve’s parents are heartbroken over what he’s doing? Have you spoken to them about this? They may be delighted that Steve is ministering to hurt and broken people, isn’t this what Jesus did? How cocky to presume what Jesus is heartbroken over. Who in the world do you think you are speaking for Jesus? Who are you to judge another’s servant? This may be exactly what Jesus had in mind for Steve.

2) Scriptures condemn what you are doing?
Really? I notice you didn’t provide any “scripture” for this. I don’t see anywhere in scripture where ministering to hurting people that have been run over by pharisees is not scriptural, in fact I see just the opposite.

3) Paul wouldn’t do what you are doing?
Friend you need to really study your scriptures.(KJV or otherwise) When Peter was caving in to the Jews wishes, your favorite translation says that “Paul confronted him (Peter) to his face.” Just like the IFB’s, the Jews were trying to cram the law on the gentile believers, just exactly as you are trying to do to Steve because he’s not doing what you “think” and have been “brainwashed” to believe is ministry.

R.G. – You have drunk deeply from the IFB Kool-aid fountain, you are judging others just as you have heard from the pulpit of your little IFB church. God is bigger than your small conception of what faith and religion is. You would do well to pick up your KJV and read it w/out preconceived notions and let the Holy Spirit truly lead you. That’s what I’m doing you may say. Really? Look at your comments here and others that are still locked in to IFB teachings, and just see the judgement you bring.

I perceive that you have zeal without knowledge.

Hi Katie – When I posted my last comment yours hadn’t posted yet, hey you know what they say about great minds!!

Happy New Year to you and yours and God bless?

Don’t know why there is a question mark at the end of that sentence, I’m sure God will bless.

Wow…it sounds like thier are some hurting people out there & we the church are responsible for loving & healing them to health by Gods grace. I believe I attend a IFB church & my experience has been so far completly different. If it ever changes…I’d be glad to share. I personally did-like ‘denominations’ since various kinds of fellowship in a perfect world would all be the same and I will not tolerate placing anything or one (denominational manmade,e tc) over Gods word the Scriptures…thats to have an idol. I’d be honest & sat that I don’t believe the IFBfellowships are all bad & perhaps most importantlty, that the doctrine they all hold to, is man made teachings over Scripture…in fact I wonder if it would be impossible since to be Independent mean you do have autonomy. One thing shared under CUltic was misue of women…(for example role of Elder/Pastor/Bishop being male & wives submission to husband,) is designated in Scripture & all Bible belieing churches would agree. But if they all were to teach women should not go to college as doctirne or even sharing that as a common opinion…thats obviously not Scriptural at all!

Many other types of Godly fellowships I believe hold to same regaridng roles of men & women based on Bible. Yet on this site they aren ot singled out. So either all IFB hold to some wicked teachings or just some bad apples like everywhere…thats where the confussion come sin for me & I do have concerns over the authors objectitivy & docrine since he/she seems to have a view (biblical submission) as unjust to women & I wonder how much is distorted? Is this all true or not? I really fear for the author & what occured to him…but I sincerley think this lable on all IFB is wrong. If someone can prove to me by showing me the tenents that makeup IFB that are non-biblical (becasue many of the ones on markings of a cult like women submiting to thier own husband sis Biblical & was a red flag for me that something may be wrong here)…please share it. I just joined I believe (I’m not sure) a IFB church (since they do not call themselve such I don’t know) & I joined b/c they actually teach & prach straight from the Bible here in Marylan…something a true Bible belieiver may be hard press to find in Baltimore. I’m very grateful for them. I wore sports jersey my 2nd night jeans to Wed night Bible study & the pastor commented on the platform that same night aganist wanting all people to be cookie cutter but rather be who God wants us to be in Christ. I was relieved & I had just staretd visiting. Even on the web it says wear whatever you’re comfortable & enphasis Biblical fellowship. So…had I been weak or confused & saw this & then thought that church was IFB & stayed away…boy would I have missed out on such a loving & friendly Godfearing bunch of folk. That I fear is how satatn can use & misuse our pain. I’m not staying stop…do what God wants but is it? I would us ethis aganist all spirtual abuse incl within denominations…if all are proven to act the same. Sadly, spirtual abuse is everywehere…but Gods grace abounds more. I’m very sorry for the hurt cause you & your family. I encourage you to read read the word, be in a biblical & loving fellowhip, prayer & please forgive those who mistreated you…don’t allow satan any foothold. I’m glad you are safe now & I hope you are all God desires in Christ. If I ever experience anything as you have shared that is wicked (note not biblical womanhood for example but lets say saying unless I had KJV I’m not saved)…I’d know that I was not where God would have me I believe & I’d run for the hills. I pray that you & your family propser in the Lord Jesus…in His love…

Just browsing through the site. Found out about it from someone on youtube. Hello to all from a former IFB church member. I didnt leave my IFB church because i disagreed w/ them or was angry or anything, i left because of my own personal struggle w/ sin and the tole that it took on my life. my husband and i separated and i followed him to get back together – thank God! So that’s what took me away from my IFB church that i loved and still love so much to this day. Since I’ve been away however, I’m beginning to question their teachings on only a couple issues. But I’ve always wanted to ask this question to a group of IFB’s or former IFB’s: (this is a serious question) What’s the one sin that we’ve been taught that will remove us from Gods protection?
I recently heard a Pastor say that if we commit this sin, we are opening up our life to Satan to come in and destroy us. I was sickened and i flat wasn’t buying it anymore.

I got to a IFB church and we are not how you claim we are. I don’t appreciate you posting that this is the was all IFB churches are. If my church taught what you claim they teach I would not be a member. I would appreciate it wif you would not claim this is ALL ifb churches.

WOW,
I never thought there would be so much to say about the IFB. I guess they are not all the same because they belive in the authority of the local church. Please do not be upset that I used the word authority. Its how they say the way each Church acts is not accountable to another. Makes them all different I guess. I was wondering if you could tell me when you realized you were a sinner who deserved to spend eternity in a real Hell. When did you trust that the blood atonement of Christ was the only way to settle your sin with God. Was it at the IBF or after you left? I am also wondering how your parents took this. Did they support you? I used to attend a Church like you say you attended.

MARK

Hi Steve, I really like your site, and I am glad of the work you are doing here! I know there are alot of pentecostal spanish churches that act like their church is the only one going to heaven, its sad because in heaven there is a whole lot of room for more than one church! I had gone to one of those pentecostal churches growing up and I thought I wasn’t good enough for God. I learned about God’s grace at a Calvary Chapel years later, and there gave my heart to God a new =) Its sad that there seem to be many churches who are leading people astray, we need to pray for them!

Keep up the good work!

In His Grace,
Racquel
ps i watched that special tonight on ABC about the IFB churches, what an eye opener!

Steve, thank you for sharing your story. I was moved by your story, and a bit shocked. I think what was most shocking to me was the notion that a child wouldn’t know God’s unconditional love for them. God loves you, even when you can’t figure out what there is to love about you. I wouldn’t have made it through my teenage years without knowing that, and without knowing that no matter what, I could always turn to God. We are all valuable to Him. How could any church fail to teach that message to their children? I am so grateful that you have learned to think for yourself, and encourage others to do so as well.

“In the Grip of Grace”? No way : ) That book was what started the healing process for me. I was a junior in college at PCC (circa 1999), and my religious life was poisoning me. I was in desperation, but I didn’t know why. I thought “I” was the problem. I started reading that book, and God used it to begin to set me free. I felt like I was reading porn because I probably would have gotten in trouble for reading it while at college. #grace

Dear Steve,

I am Taylor and I am the one that had the horrendous grammar the other night. I was expecting a response from you, but then the way I was saying everything didn’t point to you giving me an answer, so answering that first message won’t be necessary. The “truth” of the matter is this: Is exposing of the “deception”(as your website puts it)of IFB churches going to give you a reward at the Judgement Seat of Christ or as I put it the other night the Bemaseat of Christ or will it it suffer loss according to I Corinthians 3:13-15? You can’t deny that because if you do, I question your salvation. Because you know that it all boils down to that.

Like I said before: I am siding with IFB churches and the KJB. I will except my correction, as I said before, from my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Can you say that same thing to me? What is your defense in this matter? I will gladly answer back.

I have attended Church off an on all my life. Being raised as a Methodist, I was suspect of Fundamentalist Churches. I thought of them as being backward and narrow-mined. Well, long story short, I was saved in an IFB church about five months ago. I has been the best experience of my life. I AM ADDING YOU TO MY PRYERS. God Bless.

Hi Chris – I’m so delighted you have gotten saved, welcome to the family of God. It seems that you have listened well in your few months in an IFB, because you put in caps that you will be praying for us, I am assuming that is because you think we are “out to lunch” if I’m wrong just let me know, also when you put things in caps it makes victims of IFB abuse feel like we are being “shouted” at yet again, I know you are in a system that tells you that “we’re right and everyone else is wrong” but maybe you can be that one in a million fundie who has alittle compassion and empathy for folks, just like Jesus did. You can read about him in your KJV in the gospels, I know that fundies don’t read about or study Him very much, but He is a wonderful person who really demonstrates “true” love.

God Bless.

@kari
I agree with you Kari. I am a member of an “ifb” church and have been involved with other churches of other dominations through my life and never received the meat God was needing me to receive. Our church as well is very concerned with the people coming to salvation and not about attendance. I’m baffled at the amount of comments I’m reading all over the net on ifb cult rules and such… Never once have I been given a rule to follow. The head of our Bible Baptist Church IS Jesus Christ and that’s preached regularly. Our pastor brings the true word of God, and if anyone is offended, they are offended by God, not the pastor. To categorize us all in one group of “cults” is wrong in so many ways. It’s a massive shame there are sick and twisted “church leaders” who are going in such an evil direction, but that’s the case for a lot of religions and churches. And for the record, our IFB does not think we are the one true church, or even a religion. We are. Body of faithful, Bible believing, Christ following people. We have strong guidelines to follow for those of us in the childrens ministires, such as never trying to physically discipline, and in the way we talk to our students. I got a kick out of that interview on 20/20, when the lady said something about her closet of IFB dresses… Maybe she was required to dress a certain way, but never once have I been instructed on how to dress or do my hair. And the men in our church certainly recognizes the important roles we women have and hold us with respect and appreciation for the ministries we are involved in. The people of the world can’t possibly understand why we do the things we do. The bible tells us to be doers of the Word, and not hearers…. Read your bible, yes take it literally, and live your life you can to PLEASE the LORD. “for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ”!

Hi Steve, thanks for your story, I just watched a TV program about the IFB Cult Survivors and I was both angry at how they have gotten away with this abuse for years and I hesitate to say probably still are which is frightening and also heartened by those brave women and men who have come forward and pressed charges against these perpetrators. I wish you all well in your recovery, none of you are at fault in any way!

this is very scary to me. our daughter has been brain washed and controlled by her husband since last august. it all began when they started attending a church. I have attended the church and talked with the pastor. I feel it is her husband’s family that leads this cult like life and are IFB’s working thru their church. I am not for sure how to get my daughter back. We are not allowed to see her or the baby now.

Love this site!!! I have similar expiriences being in an Apostolic Pentecostal church most of my life.. totaly know what your going thru..and it takes time to even relise the full extent of abuse you went thru and to not feel guilty about leaving church and people you’ve known forever… Thanks for sharing and ive learned alot!!

I lost about half of my extended family when my brother-in-law molested my daughter. He and my sister have been involved with an IFB for many years. He totally denied any wrong doing of course and my sister backs him up. He is well-respected in his church and it makes me sick. I never knew how devastating molestation could be, not only for the victim, but for the entire family. Even before the incident, we could see my sister turning into a different person. She used to be so independent and say whatever she wanted (even if no one wanted to hear it!). She was free. Now she puts my brother-in-law number 1, her only son never has to do “women’s work,” but her two daughters have to do all the housework. She has shielded her children from every temptation and worldly object, even going so far as to make her son look away from a billboard with a woman on it wearing a bathing suit! She began to say that my children were a bad influence on her kids, and we’re Christians. My kids could be crazy, wear clothes that didn’t match, etc. Anyway, I’ve lost a sister and 3 of my children’s cousins whom they loved so much. All because of ONE MAN who refuses to tell the truth and hide behind the church and his piety. Our entire extended family has been split in half over this matter. They choose to believe the man we used to call “Mr Perfect” instead of my daughter, and why would a 13-year-old make something like that up? Anyway, I am sure not all IFB churches have sexual predators, but we need to be so very careful in any church. Listen to your children. Don’t hide.

Linda – I am deeply sorry for the this abuse your daughter has had to endure at the hands of this “perfect man of God” as well as the legalism that has swallowed your precious sister. You didn’t actually state that this incident has been reported to the police, but if it hasn’t been, please report it immediately. It is very doubtful that your daughter is this predator’s first victim or will be his last.

I feel for your sister and her children, they have now been indoctrinated into this abusive, legalistic system and truly can’t see the forest for the trees. If your brother-in-law is charged and convicted with this crime against your daughter, maybe, just maybe, some light may enter your sister’s world, and she may be able to see her way out of this mess that is know as the IFB.

Prayers for you and your family, especially for your daughter, she should receive some counselling.

Greg, thank you for your comments. Yes, we went the legal route and, long story short, nothing was done. My daughter has come out of this with her self-esteem and mental/emotional health intact. I am concerned about my sister’s children and the super-protected life they live. I pray for them often. My sister is in total and complete denial. I know that she loves the Lord, so I just pray that He takes care of her precious family.

Katie,

I’m not trying to be rude here. I see you saying a lot to people something like “that word is not in the Bible” or “that phrase is not in the bible” or something else like that.

The Word Trinity is not in the Bible. The Trinity is a Biblical concept but the word aint in the Bible.
I think most people would agree that Christianity is more of a relationship with Jesus than a religion. I don’t see the word relationship anywhere in the Bible. I see the word Religion in the Bible.
I want to be a Christian Missionary, Lord willing. I don’t see the Word Missionary anywhere in the Bible.
Etc.

Maybee you should cut back on this a little because it can come off as offensive. This is just a suggestion but feel free to do what you want. Just some thoughts.

not of this world,

A brother in Christ

Hello there, ran across your website while I was searching for a Independent Fundamental Baptist church closer to where my parents live so they can start attending. I feel bad for your past experience, but it has been the total opposite for me. I was raised a Catholic with liberal spiritual beliefs and even believed in evolution, then I started going to a Southern Baptist Convention church where I believed on the Lord as savior and was born-again. But I did not really begin to grow spiritually in my walk with the Lord until I joined my Independent Fundamental Baptist church, now my family and I are on fire for the Lord and serving Him in as many ministries as we have time for. We are truly blessed to be in an IFB church!

I was raised IFB.
I walked on eggshells for about 17 years.
I wore long dresses.
I only learned KJV.
I went to Hyles-Anderson College.
This college is one of the “top” IFB colleges, and run by the “head” church of the IFB denomination.
I graduated from there, and even went back to start a Master’s degree there…. because, well, by golly, if you’re a girl and not married, then you are counseled by the faculty to stay there longer. Anyway…..
I am NO LONGER TRAPPED in an IFB church!!!
I am so happy!
(Oh, and I am married! To an awesome Southern Baptist guy!!
Realistically, I think that the IFB is probably 70% helpful to the cause of Christ, but 30% hurtful. Not a great statistic, but in my observance I have seen many unchurched people come to know the Lord through the IFB (even if they are coerced into wearing long dresses and denied the great experience of modern praise and worship music!). I can think of more than a few of my fellow IFB college students who, once they started studying the Bible on their own, moved to a more contemporary Christian church. Of course, I know quite a few who were so overwhelmed with the “Unofficial IFB Requirements To Be A Good Christian” that they just gave up on trying to have a simple relationship with God and turned back to the world. That’s the hurtful part. But for every person stunted in their Christian growth by their IFB church, there’s probably three who were reached and helped by it.
I do not recommend anyone join an IFB church – ESPECIALLY if they are a new Christian. But for those who are in one, and feel God is using them where they are, I just encourage you to not claim the “standards” as commandments of God… if you want to follow your church’s standard as your way to show your love to God, then, great. But the minute you start thinking you are better than a non-denominational Christian because you wear a tie to church, then you should go to your closet, burn all your ties, and go serve in the non-denominational church! Actually, you should do that anyway, in my opinion… But I’m not God, and you check with Him first.
I am SO HAPPY to no longer be a part of the IFB!!! I was helped by that church family for many years, but I came to a point in my relationship with God where I needed to realize that He loves me NO MATTER how well I follow the rules, and when I came home on a break from college, I decided to be a “rebel” and listen to the local contemporary Christian radio station…. and I heard Matthew West’s “You are Everything”. It touched my heart in such a tremendous way, that I began to question why “The Church” didn’t allow contemporary Christian music. I got on the internet and began reading more, and also came across an article explaining how the IFB’s use of certain Bible verses “requiring” ladies to wear dresses only was ACTUALLY referring to women wearing warrior clothing or armor. http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/women-pants.htm
At first I stayed in denial – no, the IFB must be right! Why would they lie to me??
But….
As I talked to God about it, and prayed, I felt a definite discomfort that I needed to take a break in pursuing an IFB Master’s degree, and think through this. So I did.
A church in Dallas, TX called Watermark totally changed my mind on non-IFB churches!! An awesome community of sincere, passionate Christians who are honest and encourage each other in small groups in homes. This contemporary non-denominational church also is big on service – always putting together community service and outreach opportunities. You can tell the ladies are Christians by their Christlike spirits – not just odd long dresses. They LIVE Christianity first, build relationships, then convert. VERY VERY different from the IFB church I was raised in.
Whew.
I know now the IFB “lied” to me… but I think many of them really truly feel in their hearts that their teaching is from God. But I’m sure that a number of those at the top knew verses were taken out of context, but they wanted the results so badly and needed Bible to back up their own personal opinions on dress, music, etc. so they taught their own man-made ideas…… “Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.” Matt. 15:9 NLT

Results look great (little girls is sweet dresses, boys orderly military haircuts!) but they create a very false layer of assurance that following all the rules = a relationship with God.
And it doesn’t!!
I’d rather have my daughter serving God, being His hands and feet in our community, and having a meaningful relationship with Him than to have her wearing culottes or skirts!
I hope if someone reads my story, and wants to honestly explore Christianity outside of the IFB, check out Focus on the Family’s website. Yes, I know that’s taboo. But just do it!!! Be a Free Spirit!

Free Spirit,
That was a great story. It is good to hear from people that made a break from the “old paths” and are able follow Christ where He leads.
Your assessment of the IFB in general sounds about right to me. I think most of them teach salvation by faith accurately, it is living by faith that they get wrong.

freespirit – Your story has made my morning, thank you for sharing it!! It is because of sharing beautiful stories of freedom in Christ like this that I continue to thank our benevolent site owner, Steve for providing us this forum.

Your 70/30% of helpfulness from the IFB quote is about right I think, there are folks that would condemn everyone with the IFB title, but as you rightly pointed out there are some wonderful folks w/in this movement, just badly misled on so many things.

How many folks do I know that had their head mixed up by Hyles-Anderson? Thank God Almighty you escaped that place with your sanity. Jack Schaap has some serious issues. How can anyone that knows anything at all about God and the bible follow this man, btw, that’s one of the biggest problems in the IFB, following men.

I am presently in a tiny IFB, about 20 on Sunday, last night, Wed., we had 7. An old friend of mine has started this work, and I’m trying to help get it started. I have spoken to him about just dropping the IFB title, but he’s not having it. I’m aware of at least 1 good SBC in the area but that’s about it, my choices are fairly slender, so maybe my “job” for now is to continue to help show my pastor friend the “real” grace of God.

Tks again for your comments, you have encouraged me and I’m sure you have encouraged others.

I was saved in an Independent Baptist Church. Until then, no one really worried about my soul. After that, I got all this advice in what I needed to do next, blah, blah, blah. My pastor taught me to search every sermon and Sunday School lesson to see if the message was Scriptural. He taught me to think for myself, that I was ultimately responsible for my actions, so I needed to know the Scriptures. I have been a member of several Independent Baptist churches since. I never saw any coverups, any sexual abuse, any physical abuse, any mental abuse, except against 2 of the pastors by the deacon boards and members who think they run the church because they had been there the longest. So don’t come here with your website linking alll IFB churches together. Are there bad ones? Of course. You were always responsible for knowing the Scriptures, not just now, and you should have gotten out of that ONE church years ago. Congrats on being out now, but don’t paint everyone the same because of YOUR bitterness and naivety.

I was raised in a a Baptist school that was GARB but everything they did and ruled us by was just like I am hearing about in the IFB. It was awful. I appreciate this website.

going through this website, it really hurts me how people can think it is “spiritual abuse.” i am 17 years old and i have been going to an IFB church since 7th grade. Through the years i have been taught everything there is to be taught and i have been rebellious and was not “separated from this world” i went to church 3 times a week, sang in choir, was part of a girls singing group, went SW but i was listening to worldly music, dressing immodestly, and pretty much doing the things us teens were taught not to do. But it wasnt until i had the DESIRE in my own heart to serve the Lord did all this become clear for me. So i think thats just wat it is, if you dont have the desire then you will feel like the rules are just being shoved down your throat. ONLY WHEN YOU HAVE THAT DESIRE AND DEVELOP AN PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD will you submit to serving HIM.

@angelie
Anglie you are absolutely right. When your heart desires to embrace Jesus, you have tasted and have found that the Lord is good. Now all the rule keeping is no longer a chore. But from where you are standing the rule keeping will begin to suffocate that relationship. It will become the surrogate and without realizing it, the important thing will become just that – rule keeping. Begin to question or disagree with any of this and you will be considered wayward. Believe and go along with everything, and you’re fine.
You will become more and more right as others become more and more wrong. Standards, the KJV, winning the lost, your church and you’re back on the performance treadmill not realizing that you are being distanced from Him whom you seek to embrace. I realize you will not agree, that’s OK.
One question, who is it that says that you have to be in CHURCH everytime the doors are open?

@angelie

How sad it is to me, Angelie, that your sadness is directed at the abuser rather than the victim. This shows your lack of maturity and understanding of the issue. It’s rather difficult to have that “desire” you claim is so necessary when someone is beating you over the head with scripture. It would appear that your “desire” has left you with little compassion. I wonder, what good your so called “desire” and “personal relationship with God” is if you lack compassion for the lost and hurting.

@paul, you asked Angelie, “One question, who is it that says that you have to be in CHURCH everytime the doors are open?” Most IFB churches have 3 services a week. That’s 4 to 6 hours a week, depending on the length of services. You make it sound like people are at church 24/7. But I digress. Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said: 1 Corinthians 4:2 (KJV) 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. Ministers, as well as members of a church, especially those who teach, sing in the choir, usher, etc., should be found faithful. Even if you don’t have an office, but are a member, the scriptures tells you: Hebrews 10:25 (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
The Life Application Bible notes this: To neglect Christian meetings is to give up the encouragement and help of other Christians. We gather together to share our faith and to strengthen one another in the Lord. As we get closer to the day when Christ will return, we will face many spiritual struggles, and even times of persecution. Anti-Christian forces will grow in strength. Difficulties should never be excuses for missing church services. Rather, as difficulties arise, we should make an even greater effort to be faithful in attendance.Life Application Study Bible.
Finally, the sign of a Christian is that he will love the brethen. What a blessing it is to be a member of a local church! Psalm 133:1 (KJV)
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

John,
How I make it sound like people are in church 24/7 is beyond me. And while the Holy Spirit did have something to do with I Corinthians 4:2, He certainly was not equating this to being faithful to meetings in a building two or three times a week.

(stewards of what?)

CHAPTER 4
1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Hebrews 10:25 is just giving exhortation for believers not to go it alone and to encourage one another. The early Hebrew believers under persecution certainly did not do this at a regular time, in a regular place, in a designated building.

I guess that within local gatherings people are able to love their own. But let that cross denominational lines and it looks like anything but love. History proves this. Dwelling together in polarization, vying for position and power.

Quit proof texting.

Steve, may God bless you for seeing Him in the midst of all the legalism and deception.

http://www.sacandco.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=89181&catid=2

If anyone would like to read this link, it’s regarding Regency Baptist Church in Orangevale, CA. I had to turn “Pastor” Nichols and his church in for bludgeoning docile rabbits to death in a public park IN FRONT OF SMALL CHILDREN. They then consumed the meats of the dead rabbits and YES, they fed it to the kids. The article made top story on News 10. Please read if you are interested in gearing more. Of course, his comment about me was “(Shes) full of it”…. typical IFB response lol

I’m sorry that you had experiences like that, but i want you to know that not all Independent Baptist Churches are like that. I hope that the Lord blesses you in continue in your journey with the Lord.

@paul I have neither the time nor the inclination to try and teach someone who slants the scriptures to mean what he wants. You are dead wrong in your exegesis.

@Benjamin Pearson

You’re either delusional or in denial. That’s like hearing someone say that they don’t like Burger King hamburgers and telling them, “not all Burger King hamburgers are like that”.

@John

1. I don’t remember Paul asking you to teach him anything.

2. I’m afraid that YOU are the one who is slanting scriptures… (i.e., how do you get church attendance requirements from the word “faithful” in I Corinthians 4:2?) – talk about twisting scriptures.

3. How you get “be a member of a local church” from Psalm 133:1 is beyond my comprehension. I would LOVE to hear further explanation (er I mean exegesis) on that one.

4. Typical IFB response. Someone counters your argument with some ideas on a different (and might I add more accurate) interpretation of scripture and your only reply is nothing short of hand waving. “Sorry but your ‘dead wrong’” isn’t a very strong argument.

5. I’m afraid that it is YOU that needs to take a few lessons on proper exegesis… and try not to take lessons from the IFB. That’s where you are getting confused I think.

@Heidi
Heidi,
These are definitely “men” men. Quite able to kill the most ferocious rabbits.
Love what you did.

@BeenThereDoneThat

@BeenThereDoneThat
Awesome testimony…praise GOD & thanks for sharing!

@William M. Jackson
I admire & exhort your humbleness & willingness to not return evil for evil…but nevertheless I would stay far away from those who ‘profess to know Jesus and so clearly demonstrate absolute ignorance of Him & Gods character”. If it were other sins besides racism (for example theft, sexual immorailty, etc) that were constaant reminders of the lack of fellowship & fruit of Jesus as Lord…wouln’nt we seek elsewhere? In the end…we should be where GOD desires…but what I’m growing to find (by the way I’m no longer fellowshiping at the IFB but a non-denominational) is that the more religious one tends to be…the better reflector of a true lack of relationship with the LORD. We are saved by faith alone…once we place our faith in Jesus alone then supernaturally His Spirit indwells us & changes us inside. When we are truly changed inside…we have the power & desire to live for Him…we dont have to try soo hard to be religious (on outside or rules, etc) which usually accompanies a real lack of love (as you shared) but instead we are filled with true righteousness & desire to live that out. Often I suspect places in zeal for law do so out of lack of real love & grace that is what truly saves & really transforms heart. Thus they do not know GOD but religion…like everyone else. Perhaps this also explains how so called Christians held slaves, were KKK (and still are) and hate today…they are ‘professors’ w/ religion but no JESUS I believe. May GOD bless!

@Heidi
No Vegan-Just curious…was they simply killing rabbits & eating them?? lol…I think too may of us like to eat meat but dont want to see it be made into dinner food. Anyway…sorry but yes I’ll check out this ‘sweeping’ story….just sounds a bit…well…silly but then again I don’t know no facts. -