Is the IFB a cult?
I often refer to the IFB as “cult like” or “cultish” and I receive great condemnation from IFBers as a result. This post is being written to set the record straight and to provide a little more detail about what I mean by “cult like” or “cultish”.
Let’s first look at the definition of “cult”. The Random House Dictionary defines a cult as: 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers 3. the object of such devotion 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. 6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. 7. the members of such a religion or sect. 8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
In case you didn’t notice, the definitions are pretty broad. The term “cult” can be a bit ambiguous and is often open to individual interpretation. As a result I will try to narrow down the definitions and streamline my focus. I would like to focus on definitions numbered 1, 2, 4 and 6.
We all know of the particular cults that have come and gone. One of the more famous cults was the Branch Davidian cult in Waco Texas lead by David Koresh. If you aren’t familiar with it I would encourage you to look them up. It’s pretty interesting. Basically, David Koresh lead a group of people to their deaths because of a false ideology and set of beliefs that was unorthodox, extremist AND with members living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader, (see definition 6).
The only reason I mention David Koresh in this context is to set apart what we typically think of as a cult. The Branch Davidians characterized ALL the stipulations of definition 6 above so this is an easy one to spot. Organizations like the IFB are not so easy to spot and often have subtle variations of definition 6 – the one we typically think of when we hear the word cult – or they are purposefully deceptive about their status in society in order to deceive people into joining their group (don’t get all defensive, I’m just using deception as an example of a subtle difference to distinguish what we think we know a cult to be and what a cult really is).
Yes, I know that the IFB doesn’t EXACTLY fit definition 6 so before you decide that you want to shoot me (or at least leave this webpage) read on because I’m going to tell you why I think that the IFB fits the definition of a cult.
In a way, ALL belief systems START out as a cult by the definition of 6 above. Just think about the way Jesus must have been portrayed in his society during the time of his ministry. Do you think unorthodox, unscientific, charismatic, extremist, etc. would be words the Pharisees and people of his day used to describe him? You bet they would. Today Christianity is one of the largest religions in the world, but I think that in its early stages people might have looked at Christians as members of a cult as defined by definition 6 above.
But as you can see, the definition of a cult is NOT limited to simply definition 6. Like I said, my focus will also be on definition numbers 1, 2 and 4. Let me repeat them in case you forgot. 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. Upon HONEST inspection can you really read those definitions as say the IFB isn’t a cult according to those definitions? If not you are either delusional, extremely self deceptive or so enmeshed with the IFB that you simply can’t see it.
Yes, I know that I’m partially playing a semantics game here, but that’s why I use the term “cult like” or “cultish” instead of calling the IFB a cult outright. In the BROADIST sense we could certainly see how the IFB ACTS like a cult, in some ways, when looking at definition 6. We often see IFBers promoting the idea that we are to be “separate” (living outside conventional society), “independent” – not belonging to an over seeing body of leadership and following the leadership of the local church pastor (under the direction of a charismatic leader). We can see that the IFB promotes misinterpretations of scripture as fact – as evidenced on this site and many others (religion or sect considered to be false). We see that the IFB promotes the idea of fundamentalism (extremist) in many ways such as women wearing skirts, not going to movies or dances, etc (unorthodox) (these are simply to provide examples and are not by any means all inclusive). However, in the TRUEST sense of the word the IFB doesn’t ESACTLY fit the definition of a cult and if definition 6 above were the ONLY definition we had then I think I would have a harder time convincing people that the IFB is cultish or cult like.
However, understanding that the IFB does indeed fit SOME of what definition 6 refers to and understanding that definition 6 is NOT THE ONLY DEFINITION that’s given for a cult we must logically conclude that not all cults can be boiled down to just ones that fit definition 6. We still have seven other definitions, four of which mention the terms “religion” and/or “sect”. This is too significant to ignore.
Now, again, I play word games here, but for good reason (there are times when arguments of semantics are relevant). Since we can’t, in good conscience, call the IFB a cult, according to definition 6 – again which is what most people think of when the term cult is mentioned and according to what we as a society have come to understand a cult to be – and the IFB does display some cult like or cultish characteristics, then we need to consider the other definitions of a cult and come to a logical conclusion about this matter.
So let’s just take each definition and see if the IFB fits the description. First, definition 1: 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. The IFB has distinct rites and ceremonies that set it apart from all other denominations. This is interesting because the IFB WANTS to be considered “set apart” yet they refuse to acknowledge the consequence of this line of thinking, which is the perception of cult like atmosphere. The IFB as a whole, has distinct features, traditions and beliefs that set it apart from other denominations (I know some of the IFBers reading this will object to the IFB being called a denomination, but that isn’t the focus of this article so please read the article on Independent Deception for more information about that topic). The simple fact that IFBers considers themselves as “Independent” and “Fundamental” (separated from all else in Christianity) lends credence to this definition.
Second, definition 2: 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers. Many will read this definition and conveniently ignore the “OR” in it. The veneration doesn’t necessarily have to be a person, although one could easily argue the IFB’s veneration of the local church’s pastor. The main reverence and focus of the IFB is their unique way of doing church which, according to them, is the right way and everyone else is wrong. The IFB way of doing church has become the idol around which life revolves. The IFB will deny this of course, but those of us who have come out of the IFB can understand why. The IFB has become so good at defending their way of doing church that people can no longer see past the deception. IFBers have come to venerate the ideals of the IFB which has lead to those outside of the IFB seeing them as a cult.
Finally, definition 4: 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. Again we see here that the IFB is a group or sect that has very strong bonds to a particular way of doing church. The IFB fits the definition of a cult by its regard for and reverence towards particular traditions, beliefs and teachings that are currently considered by most in Christianity to be unorthodox and extreme.
So it is with this in mind that we see the IFB could certainly fit the description of a cult, however, I have chosen to use the term “cultish” or “cult like” in order to show some respect to the system and the individuals that make up the IFB. When I use the terms “cultish” or “cult like” I’m referring to the characteristics of the IFB that make is closely resemble a cult.
Update:
After writing this article and getting a few comments and some rather nasty emails, I realized that a little more clarification would be needed to help avert misunderstandings. As I’ve said multiple times throughout this site, I’m not trying to paint all Independent Fundamental Baptists with the same brush nor am I making sweeping generalizations (by the way, comments that accuse me of sweeping generalizations will not be responded to by this author since I’ve clearly answered this accusation here and elsewhere on the site. Please read thoroughly before you make such an accusatory comment). It is up to the reader to determine if their church has such characteristics. I simply urge you to read with an open mind and consider the possibility.
Now, having said that, it’s important that you know that I realize that the term cult is somewhat ambiguous, but cults are often defined by how much CONTROL the group and/or group leader tries to have over it’s members.
According to the International Cultic Studies Association and cult expert Steve Hassan, areas of the cult member’s life such as thoughts, behaviors, emotions and information are controlled so that the member is kept in strict conformity. Based on this, I’ve devised a little summary of how the IFB acts in such ways to control the congregation.
Please consider the following aspects of a cult as I try to help you understand their fit among the IFB.
Control over Emotions:
In a cult, a normal range of emotions is discouraged and often not allowed. In my IFB experience, if you aren’t happy then there is something wrong in your relationship with God. If you are depressed, for example, then there is sin in your life.
Use of guilt tactics is another example of the IFB’s control over emotions. This is often seen by excessive use of what I call “sin language” (not SIGN language, but SIN language). According to the IFB, you are sinning if you don’t do church the way the IFB has determined that a Christian should. This is especially true when it comes to paying tithes. For example, “If you aren’t tithing then you are robbing God. How can a good Christian rob God?!?!?!” How many times have you heard that one? I heard it almost every week and sometimes three or four times a week when the pastor did a sermon series on tithing.
Another popular tactic of the IFB in this category is pressuring its members to perform soul winning activities. A high focus on bringing in new members is a classis cult emphasis and was very prevalent in the IFB.
Control over Thought:
Rigid, inflexible and all or nothing thinking (more commonly known as black and white thinking) where issues are either right or wrong and no room is given for a middle ground or grey areas is a sure sign of a cult. This is very strong among the IFB.
The IFB effectively discourages critical thinking, negative thoughts and thinking that originates independent of the group. The IFB encourages the use of ONLY positive thinking and speaking. Hassan shares that this is often done by infusing “thought-terminating clichés”…which “constrict rather than expand understanding”…and “function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous ‘buzz words’”.*
“Pray about it” is an example that sticks in my mind. When I would have a dilemma or life issue the advice was simply “pray about it”. This might not be the best example, but if simply praying about it was helpful I wouldn’t have been having trouble in the first place since I’d been praying about it for years.
We all know the typical Christian clichés that are used among the Christian community, but the IFB takes this to a cultish level, by restricting other forms of thought and communication.
Control over Information:
In a cult, attending another church or group is often discouraged. The message that only the IFB has the truth and if you attend another type of church you can’t get saved or you are further from God then if you attended an IFB is evidence of this characteristic.
The KJV only issue is a perfect example of this among the IFB. If one doesn’t understand the KJV then they are to rely on the Pastor or a “more mature” Christian in the IFB to interpret it for them.
Individual interpretation of scripture is discouraged. Questioning or disagreeing with what the IFB teaches is discouraged. One should accept what the pastor or Sunday school teacher says with unwavering, unquestioning acceptance is the prevailing message among the IFB.
In the IFB, pastors are trained by IFB educators and seminaries. Information is tightly controlled among the leader instruction. The church I grew up in had a “Baptist Bible Institute” which trained all the pastors and Sunday school teachers. One couldn’t serve unless he/she went through that unique training program. This is plain and simple mind control.
Another evident issue in this category is limited access to alternate information. Member access to non-IFB literature is discouraged and/or prevented.
The three mentioned above are often more subtle. The more obvious one is Control over Behaviors:
Control over what to do, where to go and who to associate with is common among cults and we see this among the IFB in the obvious “standards” that the IFB has set regarding dress, hair style, music, movies, food/beverage consumption and associated friends (among many others).
An example from my experience is vacation time. We were taught to never miss church even for vacation. I always remember my parents scheduling family vacations to end on Saturday so that we could be in church on Sunday. What confused me, though, was that the pastor always took a vacation that lasted through Sunday.
Being pressured to make sacrifices is another form of controlling behaviors. We see this among the IFB as well in the form of monetary and time commitments.
Well, I hope this information has been helpful. For more information on cults visit: www.icsahome.com and www.freedomofmind.com/bite/
* Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves
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“The main reverence and focus of the IFB is their unique way of doing church which, according to them, is the right way and everyone else is wrong.”
You just simply hammered it right there friend. Oh how I wish these good IFB folks, who claim to follow their bibles so closely, would step out of their traditions for just a moment, and get their eyes on Jesus and their bibles and let the Holy Spirit speak to their hearts regarding this issue. How much blessing it would be for them, as it is for those of us that have come out of this awful, man-focused religion.
I must simply thank you again for providing this forum and sharing your heart to help hurting folks that have been damaged through this (cultish system) I think of the young teenager, Katie that recently commented here, perhaps she will continue to read and investigate the claims of her church and perhaps come to a new and better understanding of our God and how He works and moves among His people.
I couldn’t agree more, Greg. Thanks for your support and for your thoughtful, gental way of communicating.
I would like to say, we should keep in mind the fact that those who identify themselves as IFB are a diverse group. There are some IFB’s that I would agree and associate with. However, the very nature of being Independently governed leads to great diversity.
I want to be careful about labeling any church a cult. On the other hand, when a church functions like a cult, I think we should say so.
There is only one reason why I have said that some IFB churches function like a cult.
(1.) They elevate traditions and human authority to the place that only the Scriptures should have in the life of a christian.
Being a Christian is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that effects every aspect of our lives. Jesus Christ is our rightful Lord. He deserves first place in our lives because He loved us and gave Himself for us. The Bible is the christians final authority because it is the very word of Jesus Christ Himself.
Cults happen when leaders place their traditions or their authority on par with Scripture. Of course, cult leaders will never admit to placing their teachings beside Scripture. Cult leaders gain control by enforcing traditions and their own unbiblical version of authority to gain control. What ends up happening is you have people who are following a human leader, rather than Christ and His word. There should be no doubt that the methods used by cult leaders can be very deceptive. Scripture is used (and twisted) to formulate false doctrine. Men who promote such ideas rely on personal charm and pretentious piety. In the words of Scripture, they are “wolves in sheep’s clothing”.
I recently read a quote that reminded me of my need to “examine everything carefully, and hold fast to that which is good”. “True wisdom is not found in seeing similarities in things which differ, but in discerning differences among those things that resemble one another”.
I pray that God would give me the light I need to make decisions that honor Him.
I stumbled upon your site while searching for something else. While I must say I am sorry for what you and others have experienced, please remember that not all Independant Baptist churches are cut from the same cloth. I have been a member of one for twenty years and have not experienced the horrors some have published, nor has anyone in our congregation (that I am aware of). The same things have occured in Catholic, Mormon and Methodist churches as well as Baptist. Please remember that before you make sweeping generalizations about a particular denomination that no two are entirely alike. For example, while our pastor and most members do believe in the KJV only, the pastor does not force others to drop the version they are carrying before they walk through the doors. The Pastor says that it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict someone to about their Bibles, not him. He encourages folks to keep packing what they are reading. And in the twenty years we have been there, I have been to baby showers for unwed mothers and child molesters were thrown out on their ear to keep them away from the kids. What you have described on this website in no way describes the church I attend. No one is forced into a ‘box’ and no one is told how to dress their women (the pastor’s wife wears pants). The pastor not only listens to the opinions of his congregation (he is a very take charge man, but does not see the point in lording over people) but also admits his faults freely. We have had families leave our church to attend a smaller congregation (ours has grown), but we remain friends and there are no hard feelings or ‘shunnings’ for doing so. Of course, our church has its warts – good grief, no church or pastor is perfect – I only think it is a gross crime that so many have been hurt beyond repair ‘in the name of Jesus Christ’, no matter the label. Just thought I would take the time to let you know that just because it is an ‘IFB’ church, it doesn’t always follow the pattern described here. Thanks!
This article was one of the most in-depth I have yet read about the IFB and its cultish tendencies.
From my experience growing up in the hotbed of IFB (Hammond, IN), I must say that I think various churches differ in their tendencies toward being cultish. I have no clash of conscience when I readily admit that I was raised in a cult. Many of the insiders who have escaped that place would agree, but I’m not so sure about the smaller outlying IFB churches.
Marie – Your experience differs greatly from the core tenets of IFB. I am surprised that your church is still labeled as IFB with the leniency in its standards. Most IFBers would not consider your church to be truly IFB. I’m happy that you are content with your church, though.
Greg – You had some tremendous thoughts about this forum and site. I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Thanks again for this blog post. I clipped it to Evernote for future reference.
I have been in the ifb for twenty years,since I was 16,and some of the things you mentioned sounded more personal than factual.You are trying to mark all the ifb churches as cultish because of your bad experiences.You talk about dressing rite,and seperation like it,s not Biblical.Some people just make excuses,because they want to live loose.The Bible still says -Come out from among the world and be ye seperate.-1 john says -If any man love the world the love of the father is not in him.-You may not agree with that but it,s still Bible.I thank God for men who have enough guts to preach the truth,and not compromise scripture.If you are saved God exspects you to live rite sir!TO WALK RITE!TO DRESS RITE!and so on.Don,t bash ifb for trying to live according to his word,take it up with God.One day you will take it up with God.I agree that some things in the ifb churches are traditional,but no two churches are the same,but all churches should be held accountible to Gods word.Thier are plenty of Bible verses that deal with seperation,clean living,abstaining from the world,holiness,and so on.You make it sound like just a bunch of rules,and they are if thats how you,re trying to get to heaven,but those that are saved want to live rite.they are not just rules we have to live by ,but rules we want to live by,because those that are saved love the saviour.We live in a world where people want to claim the name of Christ,and live like heathens.Some people just don,t want to submit to the authority of Gods word.We want the Bible to get rite with us,but it,s everybody else that needs to get rite with the Bible.
@tommy dutton
Can you please list some references of the versus used to support your response
Thank you.
@john
I’m afraid that Tommy is your typical blog troll, John. He obviously can’t read or write (or should I say “rite” LOL). He’s just a parrot, blindly regurgitating what the IFB teaches. It’s pathetic. So anyway I wouldn’t hold my breath for a reply if I were you.
good article Steve. I haven’t been around your website recently but this article was good.
Bob,
you said “Jesus Christ is our rightful Lord. He deserves first place in our lives because He loved us and gave Himself for us.” I agree with you. If you get some free time I recommend taking a look at the short video I posted below. its only about two minutes long. I don’t agree with everything that guy teaches but I think that short video is a good one.
http://www.gracewalk.org/apps/articles/web/articleid/68703/columnid/6277/default.asp
with his stripes we are healed,
Child of God
John 10:10,
You make a good point there. I think what I was trying to say is that cult type leaders usurp the rightful place that Jesus Christ should have in our lives. Cult leaders will persuade people to follow their standards, traditions, and teachings rather than directing people to follow and imitate Christ. The end result is, people who follow these men have a man centered form of religion rather than a single-minded devotion to Christ.
I often wonder how any true believers can remain in an environment that so clearly deviates from the truth of Scripture. Jesus said, ” My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me.” I think that those who truly know Christ must feel unsettled in a cult-like environment. Either way, God knows those who are His. We need to listen to hear the voice of our Savior above all others. May God give us the ability to listen to and follow Jesus.
@greg
I have wondered if perhaps God is pouring out His judgment on those who follow traditions of men rather than the True Shepherd. John 10:3-5,27.
He is Faithful. He will eventually lead those who truly belong to Him out of “religion” and not give them His Peace as they sit in the pews under those who are false teachers.His sheep will not be satisfied with this false “fodder” of men. He will lead them out to where they will find True meat, even if it means home studying and fellowshipping with those like-minded. Think of the millions of believers world-wide who gather underground, because of the persecution they suffer. We, whom the Lord has led out of the IFB ‘cult’, are suffering very real persecution also.Praise God for mercy poured out on those of us desiring real Truth, for giving us eyes to see through the Pharisaical legalism. He drew us. All glory goes to Him. He allowed for us to be there. One of His many reasons for having us there for a time, then leading us out, are part of growing us in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Thank you for your boldness in Him. Praying His protection and added discernment for all those belonging to Him.
@bob
It fascinates me that the IFB as well as, dare I say, many denominations will call the Roman Catholic organization a ‘cult’, yet fail to recognize that much of their own teachings are the same with a different title.
“Cult leaders will persuade people to follow their standards, traditions, and teachings rather than directing people to follow and imitate Christ. The end result is, people who follow these men have a man centered form of religion rather than a single-minded devotion to Christ.”
Very well said, brother. As you have said and I also in my prior post, I believe that anyone who is truly one of His sheep will NOT remain in an environment that so clearly deviates from truth of Scripture. They (as we know from experience of this) will be led out due to spiritual hunger. He Who is Faithful will lead us to where we will find real and true meat of His Word.
Yes, it is only Him who gives us the ability as well as the desire to listen to the voice of the True Shepherd, Jesus Christ and follow His voice only. Praying that we would be sensitive to His Spirit in us.
There are all kinds of churches across america and the world. Within these churches are different groups (or denominations/non-denominations) of people gathering for fellowship, there will always be the proverbial “bad apples that ruin the bunch”. That, I am sure, most people would agree with and find to be a reasonable statement. This, many times, turns into folks making blanket statements or proclamations about a whole group in a particular type of church (especially if a action or act is observed more than one time in multiple different church groups).
While this is understandable, we all tend to point out a trend with very limited samplings to support a particular claim that would justify, certainly, any blanket position on the entire church group in question. That is actually very rarely justifiable to do. One obvious question is, “who really determines the bad and good apple” positions?”as it were. The answer is, in my opinion, for many things it is difficult to say unless it is directly and clearly indicated in scripture (no alluding, suggestions, or hints towards allowed). There is a lot fewer clearly indicated commandments that are crisp and firm which direct us as Christians to do one thing or another than many church group leaders would have us to believe as well.
The summary of the problem in bible-believing church groups as I see it (IFB or otherwise): A “things to do list” is preached and taught of what to do and not do MUCH more than developing an intimate and real fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. Because of this, there is a outward appearance of seeming holiness through the observation of the things to do rather than the true daily fellowship with Christ through the Holy Spirit. Many times, people are outward observing this things and look good on the outside but inside they are crying out for help wondering if this is what Christianity is all about! This, I am convinced, is a MAJOR problem in our church groups.
However, it is my opinion, the interesting thing is that when that relationship is developed in a strong and REAL way, then the “things to do list” becomes much shorter and manageable (manageable because He is doing it through us and guides us all individually into the things we should do naturally). That which we should be doing in the world will naturally happen in each individual life (as it will be a life controlled by the Holy Spirit of God). His yoke is easy and burden is light when you intimately walk in fellowship with the Saviour each day (Matthew 11:28-30). If I would ever be a pastor of a congregation, then this is what I would preach, teach, and encourage every chance I could! People deserve this truth…it is freeing yet it is in no way giving the saints permission to live as they wish in the flesh. This, in my opinion, is a MAJOR and cardinal truth which will allow Christians to walk day to day with Christ in this world.
The summary solution: Call all Bible-Believing churches to start spending as much and more time preaching how their people can walk with the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit on a day to day basis rather than a “things to do list” as the outward manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ in each individual life with result & the the “things” will work itself out.
Unfortunately, the brother in this article does have valid points (hopefully the above with help some so that they are not confused with the church group scene mess in our day).
Really Greg? It’s not justifiable to report on abuse unless we have a larger sample to report on??? So are you saying that we should just let abuse go unpunished or unreported since we each can only testify on “limited samplings”? Do you really believe that or are you not understanding the issues at hand?
You are asking the impossible. All we can do is report on our experiences. It’s virtually impossible for one person to get a large enough sampling to satisfy that request. This website has thousands of comments from people all over the globe testifying that what Steve is saying is correct. Is that still not enough for you? How much is enough?
Now this I can agree with. Well said! A heart change is needed before outward changes can take place. The IFB gets this reversed. They try to change the outward behaviors first in an attempt to make the heart follow. It just doesn’t work that way.
Hi everyone just to clarify, the above is another Greg, I’m the one that’s been around more than a year, and posted first on this thread.
Hi New Greg – Welcome!
Ditto what Katie said!
My friend, I do observe how you would consider ibf churches cults, just as I consider all religious groups cultish. I do follow and adore one person, The Lord Jesus Christ; and one book, the Bible (the KJV issue would take a lot of time to detail). Some, I agree, take issues and make them equal with Bible, but I must declare that if following Christ and His book makes me cultish, I plead “Guilty as charged!”
“Independent” – declares our idividual soul liberty, and the autonomy (self governing)of the assembly. “Fundamental”- means back to the basics according to great NFL and college football coaches; and I would be delighted if Christians (IFB and others) would all get back to Bible Basics. “Baptist”- is s doctrinal declaration of independence and Bible fundamentalism. What you see as IFBers, sometimes are just zealots who love their Lord and those who are in leadership. Are they mislead at times? Possibly, but usually not into anything that would be harmful. It is not wrong to honor God with your money, modesty, music, & movies. The desire is that IFBers and all Christians would do so, but not based upon demanding law but of a deep dedicated love.
Feel free to share. I seriously doubt that you would say anything that hasn’t been said and rebutted a thousand times before.
Can you please show us where, on this site, anyone has said that “following Christ and His book” makes them cultish?
Can you please tell us why, then, does the IFB focus on everything BUT the fundamentals?
Then please tell me, sir, why so many have been harmed then?
Then why dies the IFB demand such strict adherence to standards and law?
I would love to hear your explanations to these quandaries.
@Katie
My friend, I am the one who said that by the definition of a cult which is used in the original article, we are all cultish. Please read the Random House dictionary definitions as stated in the original article.
As to why some IFB people focus on everything but Bible fundamentals, the answer is easy. They are not what they claim to be. I know many of them and have discussed this point in detail.
As to why people are hurt by these churches, the answer is easy again. There are two sides to this though. One is that it is not the church or their doctrine that hurt the people, but that it is the prideful followers who do not know Christ or His Scriptures who hurt people. It is kind of like the old saying, “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” For example, If a church holds what some call extreme dress standards, the standards are not hurting anybody. What hurts people is when some idiot attacks them for not being convicted of the same. Have you ever noticed that the anti-pharisaical movement is as hateful against the pharisees as the pharisees are against them?
Lastly, there is the question of why does the IFB demand such strict adherance to standard and law? We do not. Remember, I already declared that if IFB stands for Independent Fundamental Baptist then each church is “Independent.” You have, as many, have thrown out the truth to prove your point. You can not link us together and believe we are Independent at the same time. Some nuts claim a name, but deny the truth.
Just so you know, I was saved in a Baptist church that claimed to be Independent & Fundamental, I was trained in a church that claimed the same. I have seen them split, and I have seen the sin of the pharisees and the sins of the anti-pharisees. I have been hurt by both sides. One group abandoned myself and my wife because I believed that it would be better to witness than spend time watching TV. (I went out to witness, and did not own a TV.) This was the people who my wife and I loved, had led me to the Savior, etc.
Another time I was shunned by the other side, when I disagreed with the pastor concerning some things going on at the church.
The result of both of these cases was bitterness for a season until I realized that Jeremiah 17:9 was true. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it.” I figure that is why God tells us to “Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?” God knows that men will fail you and me, but that these things are meant to draw us close to the only one who can truly be trusted; the One who will never leave us nor forsake us. Thank the Lord for grace and glory which is found during our times of trial, and perfected after we have suffered a while.
23 years after being birthed into the family of God. I am not ashamed to claim Christ and His church. His churches happen to be Independent of all ecclesiastical organizations, Fundamental in actions, and Baptistic in doctrine.
Your opposition then would be with the dictionary rather then the article or this site wouldn’t it?
Even so, I’m afraid you missed the entire point of the article – or ignored it, not sure which.
Your slight of hand by cleverly shifting focus from the IFB as a whole to “some IFB people” shows your tendency towards manipulation. It’s more than simply “some IFB people”. To think otherwise, especially after reading this site and the thousands of testimonies to the affirmative, is nothing more than self deception. I would encourage you to wake up (for lack of a better term) and see the hurt and pain all around you that’s done in the name of the IFB.
Again you’ve missed the point.
No I can’t say that I have ever notices that. I’m not even aware of an “anti-pharisiacal movement”. Could you point me in the direction of this movement or more information about it? I would love to learn more about it.
I’m not sure why you would be against “anti-pharisiacal movement” anyway. Do you not want to see the practices of the modern day pharisees aboloshed? You seem like you do, yet you hold so strongly to the teachings of modern pharisees such as the IFB. This is confusing to me. I would love to hear you flesh this out some more.
No??? Really??? You’re going to try and tell me that the IFB doesn’t require strict adherance to standards of living? You are either lying or blind – sorry but I can’t believe that you would seriously deny that the IFB has strict adherance to standards of living and Biblical laws.
I’m afraid that we have different opinions of what the “truth” is regarding the IFB then. As Steve has pointed out numerous times throughout this site, it’s not us that “link [the IFB] together” The IFB is linked together by common teachings, doctrine, “standards” and traditions. The simple fact that the IFB calles itself the IFB is a form of “linking together”. I would encourage you to read the “‘Independent” Deception’ article for more information. Steve has articulated this much better than I ever could.
So you do agree that there is harm done? In your original comment you hand waved the “harm” by saying “Are they mislead at times? Possibly, but usually not into anything that would be harmful.”. So which is it? You are confusing me. You stated that nothing harmful is done, but then you go on to share your own hurt by the harm that was done to you. I’m confused.
I don’t know what that verse means. It’s jibberish to me. I’m afraid that I don’t speak archaic English. Sorry I just don’t see any connection.
So just to be clear, you are saying that “His Church” comprises the IFB only? Sorry if I read this wrong, but it sure sounds like you are saying that “[Gods] churches happen to be Independent…Fundamental…Baptist…” Those are your words. What about other Baptists? What about those who aren’t IFB? Are they not part of “His Church”? How do you reconcile that with the teachings that “His Church” is the Body of Believers rather than a building or denomination?
Galatians 1:6-10
Denominations are different from the gospel.
Paul founded these churches and now false teachers came in. They believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah, but added unnecessary heavy yoking and burdens onto these believers. They encouraged keeping the Law of the Old Testament while at the same time claiming freedom while following Jesus Christ. These claim Jesus + “water baptism” or “circumcision” or etc etc saves one.
Works of the Law nullify the Grace of God.
http://www.masteringthebible.com/studies/galatians-16-10
1Corinthians 1:10-13
Denominations reveal division.
God allows the divisions in order to reveal who is of us and who is not.
Matthew 7:13,14
1John 2:18,19
1Corinthians 11:19
for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
@Katie
My friend, To address you last post I must proclaim that you probably do not see IFB churches advertising as part of “the” IFB. This is for two reasons: 1st because there is no such thing as “the” IFB as an official denomination. That is why they declare first & foremost that they are Independent. 2nd because local church is such an issue among many of this stripe that they would be scared to identify as part of an organization beyond the individual church.
As to the concept that the church hurt me, I said individuals hurt me within the church. My original comment was concerning misleading in lifestyle. “Are they mislead at times? Possibly, but usually not into anything that would be harmful. It is not wrong to honor God with your money, modesty, music, & movies. The desire is that IFBers and all Christians would do so, but not based upon demanding law but of a deep dedicated love.” Now if you think that money, modesty, music, and movie standards are harmful, even if extreme, then we disagree. Attitudes of individuals who by pride want to make you hold their standards or punish you, and attitudes of those individuals who mock people for such standards are both unchristian and unacceptable in many IFB churches.
As to you misrepresenting my final comments, I believe you know better. I believe that what is considered Baptistic doctrine is Bible doctrine. I believe that you ought to live the fundamentals of what you believe. I believe that all churches should be autonomous which means independent or self governing.
I do not apologize for quoting God’s word. He said that it is spiritually discerned. I teach my 9 & 11 year old children to use a dictionary for hard words. I did not find any hard words in that verse, and only one uncommon one. (“Ye” means you.) Therefore either you are declaring to being unspiritual (which I do not believe the case to be), you really have never learned to use a dictionary (another thing I do not think is so), or you just don’t like the Bible that I use and want to attack me for taking English literature in high school (I learned those words from Shakespeare).
I will take time to address other parts of your note later, but would actually like to know what part of being Independent, Fundamental, or Baptist you do not like. Is it the standards that some churches hold, or is the ungracious attitude some people have? If it is the standards, tell me what is wrong with them in particular? I may agree with you to some extent.
@Katie
Your last correspondence was accusing me of believing that all “God’s” churches were part of some group called the IFB, when all I said was that churches by definition should be I.F. &B.
If you were to study, you would find that churches that affiliate with the SBC claim to be autonomous, which means there is no ecclesiastical organization that rules over the church. (That is what “Independent” stands for.) They claim to teach basic Bible beliefs. (That is what “Fundamental” stands for.) Since the name of the voluntary association is the Southern Baptist Convention it is obvious that they claim to be Baptistic. I retrieved this information from the SBC website.
I never claimed anywhere that the “church” was a builiding, nor a denomination. I am a Bible believer. Remember, I am the one who made this about individuals in the church, and not the assembly (church) as a whole.
As to the cult issue, I did not complain about the dictionary definition. I embraced it!! Bible believing Christians are cultish by definintion. See, the truth is I’m not scared to be called a member of a cult if the cult is right.
Since when does a denomination need to be “official” to be called a denomination? IFB churches are IFB because they subscribe to all that the IFB represents. IFBers are IFBers because the associate with all that the IFB represents. They are a denomination whether you play semantics or not.
So are you saying that misleading people isn’t really hurting them? I’m so lost with this. You keep going back and forth, changing what you are saying.
Its people that make up the IFB right? And those people are following the teachings of the IFB right? So isn’t saying that the IFB hurts people and people in the IFB hurting people essentially the same thing? This feels like another semantics game to me. If people are being taught by the IFB and then go on to hurt people with those teachings and beliefs then isn’t it BOTH people as well as the IFB that’s hurting people?
I simply don’t know what you are trying to communicate here.
How exactly did I misrepresent your final comments? If I misunderstood then feel free to correct me. That’s what discussions are supposed to be about aren’t they?
The simple fact is that there is no such thing as an “autonomous” church. It’s a misnomer. How does one become “autonomous” from the Body of Believers?
IFB churches may be “independent” by name, but they are united by doctrinal position, traditions, standards of living, etc. To deny that the IFB is a denomination is like denying that a maple leaf is part of a maple tree simply because it is “autonomous” and independent from other leaves. It’s a silly argument and has no philosophical or logical leg to stand on.
Well, I guess I’m just not as smart as you then. Why use a dictionary when you can use a different version of the Bible that explains the same thing that you would get with the use of a dictionary? With your logic, then why aren’t we still speaking in and reading text in Shakespearian English in all areas since we could just use a dictionary to define the archaic words and out dated cultural idioms? Why only the KJV Bible?
By the way, I didn’t ask you to apologize for quoting the Bible I just asked you to explain that verse since I didn’t understand it or the way you were using it in the context of your message. Still waiting.
Also, dictionaries only define words, they don’t define cultural slang an out dated idioms. That’s why it’s important to have a good, reliable, and UNDERSTANDABLE translation.
It’s all of the above. For one, the “standards” aren’t Biblical. They are extra-Biblical laws and rules that serve to distract form the meat of the Word and the NT teachings on grace. Second, it’s the pious, self righteous attitudes that those “standards” cause in people. Following man made rules and laws is not Scriptural. See Colossians 2:16-23
No, I didn’t accuse you of anything. I made some inferences based on your words, but really I was just repeating back your own words hoping for an explanation. As far as I know the IFB is the only denomination that lays claim to being Independent Fundamental and Baptist. There was only one thing to infer from your comment, that God’s church only consists of the IFB, since that’s essentially what you said.
I’ve been a part of multiple SBC churches over the last 15 or so years in several southern states and I’ve never known any of them to lay claim to autonomy, independence, and fundamentalism the way you describe it.
Even if they did, a “claim” to something doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. I can claim to be president of the United States, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. A church can’t be “autonomous” and at the same time be part of a convention of churches. It’s nothing more than a semantics game, pure deception.
In the same vein, the IFB is a brand or type of church with similar teachings, doctrines, traditions, standards of living, etc. and as such fall within a category of churches – what we now collectively call the IFB. Independent is a misnomer. Each individual IFB may be self governing, but they are far from “Independent” in the truest sense of the word. Again I refer you to the “Independent Deception” article on this site.
Again it was inferred based on the context of your message and your comment that God’s church only consists of the IFB, since that’s essentially what you said – see above for more details.
I don’t understand why you keep reminding me that you are “the one who made this about individuals in the church, and not the assembly (church) as a whole.” What you fail to recognize, and effectively counter argue, is my opposition to the idea that we can blame shift the problems in the IFB to just “some people” who happen to be bad apples among the IFB. What I’m telling you is that it’s much larger than you seem to think and I’m not sure why you can’t see that, especially after reading this site and the thousands of testimonies of hurt people.
Dear Friend,
Some truths we hold to be self evident, and this is one of them. You have been hurt, are hurting, and are tomented by your hurts. It also seems obvious that you were hurt by Independent Fundamental Baptists. My concern is that you get healing, and that only come by forgiveness.
I, when I read your response to my first correspondence, tried to help you see that it is not some doctrine or denominational standards that caused your hurt, but a person or group of people. You refuse to believe such. This saddens me.
Instead of reading my responses to you, you went looking for inconsistencies. There are none if you read contextually.
You desire to do what the writer of the orginal article tried to warn against at the same time as embracing. That is putting all IFB churches in the same category. We are not all the same; kinda like Baskin Robbins Ice Cream 31 flavors.
Some IFB churches have very dogmatic leadership while others have a more tempered approach. Some emphasize soul winning, others seperation, others service, others Scripture and some even emphasize the Sovereign Saviour. You may wonder how I know so much about IFB churches. I’ve preached in hundreds of them and visited many more. What I am trying to say is that I certainly believe you were hurt in an IFB church, but that it wasn’t because you dressed modestly, gave money (tithe & offering), were limited in your music or movies, or because you served in some ministries. You were not hurt by using the King James Bible or by Baptistic doctrines.
You were hurt possibly because individuals within a congregation were hypocrites! Look at Matthew 23:23 and Micah 6:8. No matter how badly you are hurt if the people do justly on your behalf or show mercy on your behalf the healing process is helped.
The other reason you may feel hurt is because you are self-centered, not surrendered to Christ, and don’t like that God doesn’t like your sin of pride. Pride is the attitude that says “That man is not going to tell me that my lifestyle is wrong. I know as much as him. Who does he think he is? If he can’t prove it by the Bible, he can’t tell me what to do!” That is the kind of person who is just a rebel and doesn’t believe the law of gravity until they go over the edge. That is a person who is consumed in self love and needs to be saved.
If I am wrong tell which doctrine or standards hurt you.
If you would like to hear some Christ-centered, conservative, compassionate preaching you can go to www. candlestickbaptist.org.
Richard,
Are you saying that pastors have the right to set standards apart from Scripture?
Bob,
As to your question concerning the rights of pastors to set standards apart from the Scriptures? I do not think most intentionally do so.
If you were to ask me what long hair is when pertaining to a man, I might hold a different view than you. Modesty, music, movies, standards for those who hold positions, etc.; each of these can be debated by those who desire to have their way instead of the high way of humility.
God deals with our attitude as part of the flock concerning these areas when he tells us to “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, and must give account, that they might do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” Again the Holy Ghost speaks, “And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their works sake. And be at peace among yourselves.”
As I have tried to state previously, there is nothing that I can find wrong with having “standards,” even extreme ones. The problem is when your attitude about a standard is placed equal to the exact Scriptures. God looks on the attitude (heart), more than the actions; but at the same time, attitudes produce our actions. I do not endorse some of the brethren’s philosophies concerning many issues, but I am also not quick to judge another man’s servant. (This is the job of Him who judges righteously).
Pastors are not perfect, and some are even unqualified because of arrogance, but for the most part they are maligned for trying to do what is their responsibility to do as a shepherd: protect the flock from bad influences (wolves & poisonous foods), provide the flock with needed nutrition, prepare the flock to recognize dangers & flee to the Chief Shepherd. God will reward the good & reveal the hirelings.
The pastor/church relationship is described two ways in 1 Thessalonians 2. 1) As a nurse and a patient & 2) as a father & a child. That is a pastors heart. So I say, if his rules are made to protect the flock from utter danger: follow and forbear even if you can not find a chapter and verse, knowing that if you never touch the tree you shall never eat thereof.
A pastor, priest, or potentate of any sort has NO RIGHT to make rules or standards contrary to the Word of God!!!
(1Thessalonians 2:1-12) “For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain: But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention. For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile: But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts. For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloak of covetousness; God is witness: Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ. But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children: So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us. For ye remember, brethren, our labor and travail: for laboring night and day, because we would not be chargable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God. Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblamably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children, That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.”
Richard,
Let me give you a very clear example of the kind of extra biblical teaching I am speaking of. The pastor of an IFB church I attended in PA said, ” the KJ-only teaching was a fundamental of the Christian faith”. I spoke with him privately thinking that perhaps he mis-spoke. When I questioned what he had said, he insisted that I submit to him and not question his teaching. I asked him to explain his teaching from Scripture but, he only insisted that I submit to his authority. I told him that Scripture is my authority and he has no right to teach anything that cannot be proven by Scripture.
@Richard
I’m not sure what you mean by this. Experience can only be self evident truth unless corroborated by others with similar experiences (which is seen on this site). That’s part of life but maybe I’m misunderstanding your meaning here. Care to explain further?
I think you may be confused about what self evident truth means. I’ve referred to the proof given in this site. You may want to review the philosophical underpinnings of self-evident truths.
You are making assumptions here that you have no business making. I’m not tormented in the least. I just want to effect change and help keep others from experiencing the hurt that I have experienced.
This also seems like you are trivializing my experiences as if I don’t have a right to feel hurt from the abuse I suffered. Abuse hurts people. That’s a reality that you need to accept and stop pretending that it doesn’t exist.
How do you know that I haven’t had healing and haven’t forgiven my abusers?
I didn’t refuse anything. We are having a discussion and I’m giving you a counter argument for your consideration. In fact I agreed with you. You may want to re-read my reply to you.
The difference is that I recognize that since the people who are hurting others are doing the hurting in the name of the IFB then we shouldn’t ignore that the teachings of the IFB play a part in the abuse. When you say that its people that abuse and not the teachings/beliefs of the IFB all you are doing is blame shifting. If there were no abusive teachings in the IFB then the people wouldn’t be able to use those teachings to abuse would they?
Now you’re grasping at straws. I simply asked you to explain further in order to clarify. Still waiting.
But the flavors still come from Baskin Robbins don’t they? If I started a Baskin Robbins franchise in my area I’d have to serve the same 31 flavors or else I would be able to be called Baskin Robbins right? The same is true with the IFB. The IFB is the IFB because of their similar “flavors”. This analogy actually helps support my argument so thanks.
So what? The differences in emphasis means nothing. To stick with the Baskin Robbins analogy, if one Baskin Robbins had vanilla as their flavor of the day while another had strawberry that doesn’t mean that they aren’t Baskin Robbins anymore. A different emphasis or leadership style does nothing to change the fact that it’s still the IFB.
Not really. But since you mention it, this makes me wonder if you are defending the IFB simply because you are so invested in its teachings and blinded by its indoctrination rather than objectively looking at the evidence and making an open minded decision.
I know what you are trying to say and I’m telling you that it’s wishful thinking. Again I agree that it’s people who do the hurting, but those people are using IFB teachings and beliefs to do it. There is no distinction between the IFB and the people of the IFB. They are the same thing.
No don’t try and minimize what happens in IFB churches to hypocrisy. Indoctrination and hypocrisy are two different things.
In Matthew 23:23 I read Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for focusing on the letter of the law to the exclusion of what’s really important. Micah 6:8 is an admonishment to treat others with mercy, do what is right and to be humble. I don’t see how these verses apply to healing from spiritual abuse. Would you care to clarify?
Stop pretending to know me and the pain I have because you don’t. All you have are assumptions and IFB indoctrination to go on. You don’t know me.
And that’s not what pride is. I call “That man is not going to tell me that my lifestyle is wrong. I know as much as him. Who does he think he is? If he can’t prove it by the Bible, he can’t tell me what to do!” discernment. I would rather have the guidance of the holy spirit over the rules and traditions of man any day.
I didn’t know that getting rid of pride is a prerequisite to salvation. Can you please share where that’s found in the bible?
All of them were used in hurtful ways.
No thanks. Not interested. From what I’ve read from you on this site, I do not believe that I will find Christ centered preaching on your site.
@bob
Dear Bob,
First of all, I want to commend you for handling the issue properly by going to your pastor privately, and not publicly attacking him as a heretic or worse.
Secondly, I do not agree with the attitude that seems to come across from your preacher, and though I would like to make excuse, I cannot if it happened with the attitude I perceive. This being said, I do pray you forgive him for a harsh spirit, and then listen to what he is trying to say.
The problem I have with the whole situation is that I tend to lean toward his side of the argument. God says, (Psa 138:2) “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”Another verse is 1Thessalonians 2:13 which states, “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.” Both these verses tend to magnify the Scriptures and receiving them, even above the name of Christ. This is because it is the Word that is written and preached that leads us to the Word who is our life.
Now the predicament, God never tells us which translation is correct. The Word of God is the most important thing as a fundamental to our faith in Christ since “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God,” but who knows which version is correct. (By the way, they all say different things contextually, or they would only be revisions. Copy right laws forbid claiming credit for someone elses work even if you updated the language.) Your pastor has probably studied the KJV issue, (I do not know this to be true.), as have I and has come to the conclusion that it is the correct English translation. You can either receive it as the Word of God in truth, or reject it. I plead with you to really seek out this matter with a pure heart.
Please consider the copy right issues. All other versions have men receiving royalties for the writing, if my studies are correct. No one can claim royalties for the Authorized Version of 1611 or its revisions do to the original copy right which claims no person has the right to royalties for God’s words.
Therefore I conclude that, your pastor did not make up his own standard, but by faith trusts God and His ability to have the Scriptures preserved correctly, even in this generation.
My question to you would be, “If the Bible as translated and revised in our King James Bible is not correct, which translation is correct?” Now, if you say, like the scoffers, that we have no sure translation, then we have no hope of being certain that our salvation is secure. Our salvation rests in that Christ is who the Scriptures claim Him to be.
Richard,
The issue here is whether or not the kj-only teaching is a fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. It is not a question of whether you like the kjv or not. The kj-only teaching is either supported by Scripture or it is not.
I am actually surprised that you seem to be okay with adding a new teaching to the Christian faith. Why should adding doctrines of men be tolerated by anyone?
By the way, if you are going to argue that the kjv is fundamental to the faith, you have to show exactly when this happened.
I hold no malice against my former pastor. I actually did hear what he had to say very clearly. The problem is that he couldn’t support his teaching with Scripture.
@Katie
Dear Young lady,
If there is one thing you need to realize, I do not trivialize much, and especially your situation.
I guess “obvious” would have been a better choice than “self evident.” You are consumed with bitterness based upon unforgiveness. I am not debating that point, but declaring it to be so, as will anyone else who reads or listens to your railing against your abusers.
Do you have a right to be bitter? You say that I do not believe you do, but the opposite is true. I believe even more than you have a right to be bitter, my precious Lord Jesus, who never sinned, and never had an evil thought had a “right” to be bitter. He realized His responsibility to glorify His Father, and be the channel of grace was more important than coming down from His cross, and leaving us to face His righteous wrath. You do have a “right,” and you are using your “right” as often as you can.
You say I don’t know you, “Stop pretending to know me and the pain I have because you don’t. All you have are assumptions and IFB indoctrination to go on. You don’t know me.”, but I do. I, as well as many of these others, have been you. The truth is, all bitter people are the same only different. We justify our lack of graciousness toward our offenders on them, which actually means we have not control of ourselves.
As to the issue of “Pride,” the problem is that you must not realize what God says about it. That is probably because your IFB church did not teach the essential doctrines of salvation such as “Repentance.” I call that group of Baptists “Phonies,” not “Fundamentalists.”
What is Pride? Self exaltation. What does God require for salvation? Deny self. (Matthew 16:24-26) “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”
God hates pride.(Prov 8:13) He declares that Leviathan (that old dragon) is a king over all the children of pride.(Job 41) Pride goes before destuction.(Prov 16)
Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.(Prov 16:5) For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:(Isaiah 2:12) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.(Malachi 4:1)
God hates pride and will judge it. Pride is the sin that keeps men from giving up self for salvation. It is the sin of Satan.
After saying all that, let me say Pride is found as a root source of sin, whether you are saved or lost. You and I have an old wicked sin nature that is prone toward pride.
Some say that there are two kinds of pride. Even if you believe that, you cannot Scripturally back your view. Pride is the antithesis of gratefulness/thankfulness. If I take credit for it, than I am not glorifying God for it. If you want credit for your salvation, you certainly do not want Christ. He did it all. I just confessed my guilt & inability and let Him do the work. Praisaluia!!
Please tell me what these people did? I am not trying to sound insensitive to your plight. I, in my 24 years as a christian, have seen some of the vilest things justified in the name of Christ & His church, but have also seen people get out of sorts over things that I cannot comprehend.
Not listening to our website because you think evil of me, though you have never told me even one thing that I have said that is not gracious, (even though seasoned with salt), is just another evidence of your being ate up with bitterness.
@bob
Bob,
My question is, “Which version of the Scriptures is the word of God?” The one that is God’s word is the Fundamental Foundation of our Faith. I through faith and by much study trust the KJV to be the word of God, therefore it is the only English Bible that I trust.
As to whether the word of God is the fundamental foundation of the faith, it happened when God wrote it originally. My belief in divine preservation of the Scriptures is completely Scriptural.
I do not see what your issue with the KJV is. I do know that through comparative study no two versions are the same. If the KJV is the word of God in truth, then it has been since it’s translation. The big issue is, “Is the KJV the word of God?”
There is no reason to argue whether it is the only correct English translation, if you do not believe it is a correct English translation.
God said that He is the one who magnified His word above all His name. What version was He talking about? Probably the old Hebrew text. I believe that verse applies to the whole Old & New Testament as originally written, and as providentially preserved. You may not believe that, but the eternal God did not specify that this only applied to Scriptures which are not around anymore. Divine Revelation, Divine Illumination, Divine Preservation, and Divine Illumination are all Bible doctrines, so I do not know where you have a problem with your former pastor’s point.(I have already agreed concerning his bad way of handling the issue.)
The word of God is fundamentally foundational to our faith.
Richard,
I will answer your question about which version of the Scriptures is the Word of God. In one sense none of them are. Not one translation today is a perfect representation of the original text. Our translations are also limited because there can be no literal equivalence between English and the original languages. I believe what Christians have held to for 2,000 years, that the Scriptures were inspired by God and are without error in the original manuscripts.
In another sense, every translation that transmits the original text of the Bible is the Word of God. I think you know that in Jesus time on earth there was more than one translation of the Old Testament. If the Jews were to stick to one translation, Jesus had a good opportunity to settle the issue. I am sure that you know many of the quotes in the new testament come from a Greek translation of the Old Testament. Thus we have two translations of the Old Testament and the Holy Spirit calls both of them the Word of God.
So Richard, if you want to have one authoritative English Bible translation, you are out of luck.
Now, if you are able, tell me when the KJV became fundamental to the Christian faith.
@bob
Bob,
Being that I believe you are a reasonable person, I think I must not know what the King James Bible only controversy is. I assume you agree with me that God said He has magnified His word above all His name, and that the Bible is fundamental and foundational to true faith in Christ. Therefore, I have not understood the controversy. The King James Bible declares it to be foundational and fundamental to the faith. Other versions claim the same thing. It all depends on if you believe this to be true, and which version you accept.
I believe the King James Bible, therefore any version that says anything different contextually is wrong. I use the word “contextually” to distinguish between whether I believe a translation can be made updating language that does not change meaning, and other Bibles.
Bob,
I don’t need luck, I have the Word of truth. You are the one without any sure foundation for your faith unless you hold the originals.
What I have is God’s word that He would preserve it to all generations. There is nothing left to discuss. To discuss truth with someone who is not confident in the Bible he uses is foolish, and my dear friend I am not.
Psalm 12:6&7 God promises the purity & preservation of His word unto all generations. Psalm 138:2 tells us that the King James Bible, which is the Word of God, is magnified above all His name. I believe Him more than a man who has no basis for what he believes, especially when God says His word is the foundation for faith. You are the one who says that no Bible today has authority. I take you at your word that you believe such to be so.
My faith is based wholly upon the Word of God telling me that there was a man named Jesus, that He is the Son of the Highest, that He loved me enough to die for my sin, that He rose again, etc.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures:
Paul said “according to the Scriptures.” I wonder did he hold the original scrolls that Moses, Isaiah, and the other old testament writers penned. I trow not. He had copies most likely, but he had total confidence in the what he held. I, like Paul, have total confidience in what I hold. He did not just believe some writings that were not in his possession (the originals), but in the ones he carried with him. You say you cannot have total confidence in the Bible you have.
@Richard
Can you please show me where I was “railing against [my] abusers”? I don’t recall doing that.
Again, you don’t know me or my situation so how do you know that I am “consumed with bitterness based upon unforgiveness”? Just from a few messages we’ve exchanged? If so you must be a mind reader or clairvoyant or something because I haven’t given much indication about anything that could be mistaken for bitterness. Bitterness is the IFB’s go to argument when they have nothing substantial to contribute so congrats for fitting in the mold.
Also, I’m not a “young lady”. I’m 73 years old. I’ve been around the block a few times so some respect would be appreciated. If you would stop focusing on making assumptions about me you might be able to see more clearly what I’m communicating.
I don’t recall saying that.
Jesus was perfect, I’m not.
No, you don’t!!!
How can all bitter people be the same only different? That doesn’t even make sense.
How do you know I don’t have “graciousness toward [my] offenders”? Again, what makes you think I’m bitter?
I don’t disagree with you on these issues. What I disagree with is you judging me and making assumptions about me.
There ARE two kinds of pride – boastful pride and a sense of accomplishment pride. The Bible speaks out against the former not the latter. You’ve backed this up with scripture yourself so I will refer you to your own scriptural analysis.
No, pride is the antithesis of humility. You are getting your terminology mixed up and I think it’s causing you to error in your interpretation of scripture.
I can list all the abusive things done to me in the name of Christ by the IFB, but it would do no good because you what you lack is empathy and sympathy not knowledge. It would do you well to listen for once rather than preach.
I don’t think evil of you, I never said that. I believe you are gracious, I never said you weren’t. I’m not listening to your site because I’m not interested and I don’t think that I will hear anything that is Christ centered (I think I already said that).
By the way, I don’t hear any grace in your messages. I hear gentleness, but that’s not grace. All I hear is you trying to convince me and others that your particular way of doing religion is the correct way.
Much more than grace is needed. You also need empathy, compassion, sympathy, listening skills, biblical knowledge (not IFB knowledge, BIBLICAL knowledge), wisdom, etc. If all you have is grace then I’m afraid that you are seriously lacking.
I think it’s interesting that you are willing to season YOUR grace with salt when you preach at others, but when someone tries to correct you with grace seasoned with salt you get defensive.
Oh Richard,
If you are able, please tell me when the KJ-only doctrine began to be part of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. Remember, we are humbly seeking for God’s truth.
PS – I don’t know how I missed this in my reply to you. Matthew 16:24-26 is NOT a salvation passage. What you are describing is a works based salvation. God does NOT require anything for salvation except faith in Christ’s atoning work on the cross. Ephesians 2:8-9 “8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
Denying self and giving up an attitude of pride is not a per-requisite for salvation.
@bob
Bob,
As I have admitted, I am not familiar with this so-called doctrine if it is not that the word of God is inerrant. Please explain this doctrine.
@Katie
Dear friend Katie,
I do apologize for calling you a young lady. I certainly did not desire to offend you, or belittle you.
I will be out for a few days, so answering your discussion will be delayed.
I must say you err though. Life is life, soul is soul. When the soul is lost this is concerning eternity. God gives life eternal. Further study on pre-IFB, and modern teaching would teach us that God was dealing with becoming & being His disciple. This process is started when you are willing to deny self, take up your cross, & follow him at salvation. Notice the clarity in the King James Bible as it refers to our “will” and His “shall.”
We will talk later. Should I address you as “old lady”? I do know how to be light hearted. Again, I apologize for taking liberties that were not given.
Bob,
Just one question. Is the Bible correct if it leaves out Acts 8:37? The verse is “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” I not dealing with the KJ only issue, just dealing with is this verse part of the word of God in your opinion.
Richard,
Either the KJV is fundamental to the Christian faith or it is not. If you claim it is, as it seems you are, then just explain to me when we got a new doctrine that all Christians everywhere are to accept.
The KJ-only doctrine teaches that the KJV is fundamental to the Christian faith.
Richsrd,
I am not 100 percent sure about this verse. There is good reason to question wether the verse is original, or inserted later. Either way, the verse itself is a true statement, so it doesn’t present any real problem. That is my take on it anyway.
Richsrd – Do you believe that the Romans hung a “dead” Jesus on the cross of Calvary as the KJV says at Acts 5:30?
Most new translations fix this obvious mistake.
@greg
Greg,
My friend, the use of a comma would have made that verse say what you claim. “Slew” and “hanged on a tree” are both discribing the same thing. I am a student of English grammar, even if don’t always use it correctly. No comma, no problem.
I’m really enjoying the discussions here, but I wanted to chime in on this one since I’ve probably done more research on this topic than most people.
Most scholars (except KJV Onlyists) generally agree that Acts 8:37 was actually added to the KJV. This verse is describing the conversion of the Ethiopian Eunuch. Most scholars agree that it was most likely added by a translator who wanted to explain why the Ethiopian Eunuch was baptized. The evidence that it was added is that it did not appear in any manuscripts prior to about 500-600 A.D. when it was finally found in a manuscript known as Codex Laudianus. Even the NASB, which almost everyone acknowledges (again except KJV Onlyists) that it’s more accurate than even the KJV, has a foot note under this verse stating “early manuscripts do not contain this verse”.
I’ve talked about the Myth that KJV Onlyists claim, that new translations leave out verses. In actuality the KJV has verses that have been added. You can read more about the KJV Myths at http://www.baptistdeception.com/kjv-only-deception/. This is an absolutely fascinating subject to study and I would encourage you to drop the belief that the KJV is the perfect, preserved Word of God just for a moment, just long enough to look objectively at the evidence. You may be surprised. I know I certainly was.
@bob
Bob,
I see your point. If you do not have the originals, you do not know what God actually placed within His holy book. Therefore, if I claim that the originals say that Jesus claims not to be the Messiah in one of the lost books, you have no argument. Somewhere along the line you have to believe what you hold is correct, at least to some point.
I believe the KJV to be completely correct. Therefore, I can confidently rest in the fact that Jesus is the Messiah no matter what anyone else would claim.
The Bible is the fundamental foundation for our faith if we claim to be Bible believers. If we claim to be Christians, and don’t believe the Bible to be true, we have no hope.
I personally believe that you believe the Bible to be correct concerning Christ, but that you are not sure which one is most correct. That is why I challenge you to continue your studies, and do not just take some man’s word on it.
As to Acts 8:37, this truth is fundamental to the faith. Also, if Acts 8:37 is not in the originals, I want to know what the answer to the question of verse 36 is. Do you believe the evangelist to be rude and not answer a sincere question. Remember he is not IFB, or at least most of those who are on this website would not claim him to be. I think he was. Laugh a little, it is good medicine to have a merry heart according to the KJV
@Katie
Dear Katie,
I have been enjoying your correspondence with Richard and have observed a couple of things.
First, I have known Richard for many years and do not think it he is being defensive. He just desires to help and encourage people in their walk with the Lord and to make them think about what they believe.
Second, as for doctrines and standards, Richard said, “If I am wrong tell me which doctrine or standards hurt you. ” Your reply was, “All of them were used in hurful ways.” Therefore, from your own point you agree with Richard, it is not the doctrines and standards, but the people and their abusiveness.
And by the way, all the elderly ladies at our church love Richard.
@Melissa
Hi Melissa.
1. You do not think Richard is being defensive because you are not on the offensive against him.
2. It doesn’t seem to me that he has a desire to help and encourage people. All I’ve seen is a desire to tell people that his way of doing religion is the correct way. To help and encourage people one must first become a good listener. “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.” John C. Maxwell
3. Yes, I believe I stated that I agree with Richard on the idea that it was people and their abusiveness. But you must have missed why I also believe it to be the doctrines and standards/beliefs of the IFB. I would encourage you to re-read my replies to Richard. I stated it a few times.
4. So because “all the elderly ladies at [your] church love Richard” I’m supposed to love him too or think of him as a helper and encourager? Is that your point? If all the elderly ladies jumped off a bridge should I follow them in that endeavor as well? I would place a bet that all the elderly ladies at your church are just as blind to the truth as Richard is and probably because of Richard’s teaching/preaching.
@Katie
Dear Katie,
I got home sooner than I thought I would.
Just to let you know, you keep saying I do not know you. Point well taken, but I do have a perception about you. Just like you perceive me to be gentle, I perceive you to be holding on to some bitterness. Perceptions, right or wrong, are still perceptions.
As to “bitterness” being some IFB thing that they use on people who disagree with them, I don’t know. I happened to learn about it in a counseling book written by a man who is not IFB.
Pride-I like your two views. They prove why God hates all of it. If I recall right, one has to do with a sense of self accomplishment and the other seemed to be a worse thing. If the Apostle Paul was right, in ourself (flesh) is no good thing. This means that any thing good that is accomplished is only by grace. This would make our proper response “delight” or “joy”, not “pride.” I did not do it, Christ in me did.
Concerning this area of salvation, I certainly was surprised to find out how different our views are.
You say your faith is in a work, while mine is in a person. (Big difference).
The Bible says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” And again, “As many as received him.” I don’t recall God saying, “Believe on the work.”
My point is simple. I am a Bible fundamentalist. I believe it literally, word for word. I believe Jesus taught, as the essence of salvation, if we desire (will) to come after Him, we are to deny self, admit guilt, and follow Him. Did Jesus believe in works salvation when He told men to leave their lifestyles and livings behind, and follow Him?
This modern doctrine of salvation grieves the Holy Ghost, who teaches, not by works of righteousness to earn salvation, but works of grace as an evident salvation. It is His work in us that is our salvation, not His work for us. He illuminates (shows us who we are, who He is, Shows us our sinfulness and his graciousness). This brings conviction and our choice to respond. If the response be refusal or rejection, too bad; but if the response be repentance (a wilful desire to have Him instead of our selfish ways), He grants us faith to trust Him to deliver us from sin and self sufficiency. (The result of sin is eternal death in hell and the lake of fire. Our salvation is from sin, therefore we don’t face the judicial punishment.) Faith entails believeing Him for all He is, all He did, and all He wants to do. We, to the best of our knowledge, by His grace, give (submit, surrender, yield, etc.) ourselves to Him. He regenerates us, enabling us to do what we desired, by His personally moving in to empower us.
I like how Isaiah says it by the Holy Spirit in 12:2&3, “Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.”
I do know some socalled IFB, some SBC, and other alphabet folks who do not agree with the Bible and say basically, “Believe on the Saviour Jesus Christ and be saved.” and later you can believe in His Lordship. That is why they spend so much time trying to make the people submit, to change actions, or else as a church compromise.
This whole thing of salvation must be balanced by Scripture. Is Jesus our Master, King, Lord at the moment of salvation.
I guess that is like marriage. Is the man the bride’s husband at the moment of marriage? Is a willingness to submit to his authority implied and expressed at the ceremony?
Basically, the same idea is at the moment of salvation. That is why God uses the title “Lord” instead of “Savior.” That is why the focus is the person, not only the work.
If there is one damnable doctrine in some Baptist churches, it is the idea of a divided Christ: Jesus, which has to do with His being our Saviour, without Lord, which has to do with His kingship/rulership.
Just like when my wife and I married, she got all of me: the good, the bad, and the ugly; when a person gets saved they receive the whole Christ: the Lord and Saviour.
If a person does not want the whole deal, they don’t get saved, no matter what they say.
Oh! One last thing. You said that things cannot be the same if they are different (see your bitterness comments) but you say all IFB churches are the same when we all are different to some extent.
This true account may bring to light my view on the IFB movement.
I have two pastor friends who happen to have the same name. One is in a northern state while the other is in the south.
When I first met and preached for the northern pastor, he asked me about the other. I told him a few things, and then heard his response. (a response I will probably never forget). He said, “Brother, I hope he never falls.” I wondered why there was such a concern about this particular pastor falling, so I asked. The pastor said, if he falls, and the word gets out I’ll be ruined in my reputation. You see, they both have the same name. They both pastor. They both claim the title IFB. If one falls both can be affected.
Truth is if one so-called IFB church gets a bad reputation, it affects all who claim the name. If one Baptist church gives place to the devil, and causes trouble, all Baptists are affected. Actually, every time any church or Christian is caught in a scandal all are scrutinized.
We can be 600 miles apart, never met, not look the same, and have totally different personalities; but if he falls I can have trouble because we have the same name.
Richard,
We may not have the original autographs of the Bible, but that doesn’t mean we don’t know what they said. We have an abundance of quality manuscript evidence to the original text. So you are dead wrong to say we don’t know what God said if we don’t have the originals. If you make a false claim based on the originals, Everyone who knows their Bible will detect your error immediately, because we know what the originals said.
You have to base your beliefs on Scripture, not what you believe to be true. Just because you believe the KJV to be correct, doesn’t make it so. Even there, how can the KJV be the Word of God and contain errors?
The Bible is fundamental to the Christian faith , the KJV is not. In order for the KJV to be fundamental, It would have to be clearly stated in Scripture. You can’t have a fundamental doctrine for one group of people that doesn’t apply to everyone else. The KJV is either God’s final written revelation for all people within the church age, or it is just a translation that has certain merit based on how well it transmits the originals.
I will try to keep an open mind, but you really need to do better than ” I believe the KJV to be completely correct.” Are you saying it is error free? Are you making a claim for inspiration? What does the KJV have that no other translation has? How did God reveal to you that the KJV is the right one? On what basis are we to reject all other translations and hold to the KJV?
@bob
Bob,
I interpret that you are now saying that the KJV isn’t a Bible. “The Bible is fundamental to the Christian faith , the KJV is not. In order for the KJV to be fundamental, It would have to be clearly stated in Scripture.” I believe I quoted the verses, you will not apply them.
I read Steve’s interjection. He seems to believe the NASB to be the most correct translation, and if so I disagree but do not fault him.
To deny the KJV ranking as the word of God goes beyond anything I have said about any of the “modern translations.” I have not attacked them, I have only stated that I believe mine to be correct. (Divine Preservation, Not Divine Inspiration).
If most recent studies are correct, the KJV is still from the Majority Text and possibly some of the oldest. That being said, should majority rule? I do not declare that to be so. Should oldest rule? I do not declare that. I, like you, if you have lived any length of time, have seen majorities be wrong and have seen older folks be wrong. Somewhere along the line you must stand that the Bible you hold in your hand is authoritative for all doctrine and practice.
I claim the KJV because it works. I am old enough to remember when the KJV was accepted as the final authority in most denominations across America. Has America become better with the newer? I trow not.
I’ll stick with what works, and not fight against the flow. Just standing on the KJV as my final authority for life brought me to the saving knowledge of Christ, a sweet fellowship in Christ, & (as I am confident because I believe the Book) an eternal residence with Christ. If God can do all that and still sound like a poet, GLORY!!!
You, my friend, claim only the originals are the word of God, and you have never seen them. You believe some men, who had agendas (some honorable), but mainly the money making agenda, to advertise their Bible not to be defiled. Most of them claim to be the Bible, which due to what most people think, is a false claim. (Most people think “Bible” means “God’s book,” not just any book). Just putting that on the cover, if they are not the originals, according to your logic, is deceptive and damnable. (I do not believe this, I am following your logic).
To fit your criteria, honest advertising and a title would say, “The uninspired/incomplete/incorrect Book of God that we translated from uninspired/incomplete/incorrect books and scrolls.” The publishers and editors can always say, “We did our best, but God left us nothing to work with.”
When you show me who advertises that way, upfront on the title or in sub-title, I guess it would be a good book to read. If I want fiction, I’ll buy the new John Grisham novel (oops! My wife is doing that today).
You are a blessing to correspond with. I still do not undedrstand the KJ-only doctrine, or should I say I know men who claim it and some are nutty extemists, while others have just found what works and are not exchanging for the unproven, especially since they read men who tell them that only the originals are right.
Find the Bible you believe to be most correct, learn it, love it, & live it. God can even draw a straight line with a crooked stick.
Richard, there comes a point in some discussion where I feel like I’m simply beating my head against a wall. There’s nothing more that can be said since you refuse to open your mind to reason. You are obviously not interested in discussing, but in arguing. You have your mind made up and you are not going to let anyone tell you different. Therefore, I wash my hands of you and I wish you the best of luck. I can’t justify wasting anymore time trying to share logic and reason with you as it simply falls on deaf ears.
One final departing thought though. If you are depending on the KJV and your “denial of self”, as you’ve stated, for your salvation, then I’m afraid that you aren’t really saved. Scripture is clear no matter what version you read that salvation is by grace through faith, not of WORKS, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 says nothing about using the KJV or attending an IFB for salvation. If you are relying on your efforts then you will be a lot hotter for eternity then you think you will be.
I will be praying for your soul and I sincerely hope that we will meet in heaven one day.
Richard – I see you place a very high value on the KJV translation. Which revision of the KJV translation do you use? Most of the folks that I know generally use the 1769 revision, of course I’m sure you realize that the KJV has been revised several times. What is hard for me to understand is why, if the KJV is the only true word of God, did it need to be changed or revised at all from the 1611, which by the way contained the apocrypha, and also contained “The Translators to the Readers” in which the translators themselves completely dismissed any notion that theirs was the “only” perfect word of God. If the KJV translators were alive today, they would be the first to denounce any idea that theirs was the “only” reliable translation. They said that “a variety of translations is necessary for the finding out of the sense of the scripture” I wish to goodness that the “Translators to the Readers” still came with the KJV translation, it would quiet much foolishness.
One last question, where was God’s word in English prior to 1611? God wouldn’t have left English-speaking people w/out His word would he?
Richard,
I never said or even hinted that I believe the NASB to be the most correct translation. You are taking liberties with my words just like you are with Bob’s and Katie’s.
There are, in fact, at least 5 translations that offer a more accurate word-for-word translation than the KJV. These 5 are the Interlinear, NASB, AMP, ESV and RSV. This isn’t opinion it’s fact. Look it up if you don’t believe me.
Although I believe that your intentions are pure throughout your discussions here, I must give you this warning. This site ultimately speaks out against spiritual abuse and oppressive beliefs. As such, I’ll not allow the way that you “discuss” these issues to go on forever. Please properly engage in discussions by carefully reading and thoughtfully responding. If you continue to simply spout IFB dogma the discussions will end and you will not be allowed to return. While it’s nice that you provide a very loud example of what this site speaks out against, it starts to become unproductive and abusive when you refuse to engage in proper debate. Understand?
Richard,
You say that you believe in Divine preservation of Scripture. I do too. The issue I have is with people who insist that we must use the KJV. God never said He would preserve His Word in the KJV. This is the main issue I am trying to get at. To say that the KJV is fundamental to the faith is wrong because it would have to have been fundamental to the faith since the Scriptures were completed.
I believe that the KJV is a good translation and is one I use myself, although mostly as a study tool. I am just trying to point out that those who require others to use the KJV in order to be fundamental are going beyond what the Bible clearly teaches.
Maybe a reverse comparison would help to clarify this. Lets assume your pastor said that the NASB was fundamental to the Christian faith. If you would be shocked by this, I would be too. Every Christian should stand up immediatly and denounce what he said as false. Why? Because the NASB is merely a translation of the Scripture and is not necessary for one to use in order to be a fundamentally sound Christian. This is my point about the KJV. It is not necessary for one to use the KJV to be fundamental. Therefore to judge Christians as not being fundamental based on whether or not they use the KJV is a false standard of orthodoxy.
@bob
Bob.
Two things to say to your comments.
#1) I would most likely graciously leave the church, and never discuss the issue with anyone until I realize they have a need to know. I probably would speak to the pastor a couple of times privately prior to leaving, in order that he know what the issue is. I would not go looking for friends in the church to try to bring with me, such as some of my brethren have done when they leave churhes. I believe in Individual soul liberty, I am a Baptist. I believe that if my friends hold the view of the pastor, they will stay; if not, God is big enough to direct them. I would not discuss the issue with outsiders unless they were planning to join the church. At that time I would ask them if they knew this stand, and could sit under a pastor who holds it. You see, I do not always recommend the most “fundamental” churches to people. I recommend they go somewhere that they can get some help from the Lord.
2) You can read through all my writings, from the first, and you will see that I have continuously said that The KJV issue was not what I desired to discuss. The reason being is that I know where I stand and am confident. My job is to preach the word, not to defend it. I really do not have time to debate the issue, I’ve read the books, heard the arguments, and still believe that I’ll stick by the Partner I started the dance with.
Being that you will probably not hear from me again, I want you to know that I have enjoyed our dialogue. I do not stay where I am not welcome.
Melissa,
I have a God given responsibility to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. The situation with my former pastor is about four years old. I handled it in a Biblical manner and with a clear conscience.
I don’t have a choice about weather or not to confront false teachers. I have a responsibility to take a stand for what the Bible says, especially within my local church. When someone adds a fundamental doctrine to the Christian faith, they are in serious error, and it has to be exposed.
@bob
Bob,
Some how our church secretary, got credit for my recent post. She would not be writing you, being she does not correspond with men. She has corresponded with our friend Katie, and she overlooks all of my correspondence with women. This is not some IFB doctrine, just years of wisdom from being around people who misrepresent the truth, and others who abuse trust.
I did not make a long explanation to why I would not cause a scene, but I believe you and I would agree that the testmony of Christ and His Church is more important than the NASB/KJV controversy. (I use those two only because they were the ones brought into the discussion previously). I am confident that if your pastor did not receive your 1st exhortation (not rebuke) well, after a 2nd he is going to most likely get on the defensive. The next step would be to take some men of like mind with you and go to the pastor about the situation, but I have seen this turn into an argument over perception of truth. The next thing is bring it before the church. The pastor, and his cronies are not going to let that happen. He will malign you. (I saw similar happen in a non-IFB church, so being IFB, and knowing the pride of people, I certainly see it happening there.) Therefore you are now the cause of all problems in the church, you a causing contention, and you are banished.
ON the other hand, if you never get into a fight with the pastor, and leave the church on good terms, quietly, people will ask what happened. The pastor will stand behind the pulpit and talk about how you are a heretick, and so on but many will question why he is so angry when you did not do anything to start a stink.
ON one side the church splits, babes get hurt, you get either bitter or puffed up (this is natural), the pastor gets bitter or puffed up, and the testimony of the church is hurt in the community unless you live in a major metroplex. (Then it takes two or three splits to destroy a church). Nobody is really happy, because no one did right.
Two things to realize: #1) It is not my church. I did not purchase it, and I certainly do not love it as much as Christ. #2) For the Bible issue to have gotten to the extent that it did, most people already were leaning toward that direction, even if they were wrong.
Though I desire to see churches started by men who are sent out, there is no problem with starting a church in a community where there are no good ones. This is not done by prostelizing, but evangelizing. There will be those who come from other churches, who are discontented, in debt, & in distress; but the church planter is looking for fresh fruit, not tainted by false doctrine. (Don’t turn the church hoppers away, but make sure that they are willing to deal with the former offender & offense).
Now, if there’s already another church in the area where you can fellowship, join up & go on with God. You will never have to question, Did I leave with a right attitude and good spirit, because no one will know except for you, the pastor, and those who really care.
Jesus did not try to fix Judaism, He started something new. He took the abuse, His disciples took the abuse, and throughout history His churches have taken the abuse. I lay down my life for the sheep, I don’t try to butcher the under-shepherd, and I certainly am very sensitive about the flock.
As I said in my recent correspondence, I perceive that I am not welcome here, and so am signing out. If you respond, I may but I may not. There are some who have issues with my disagreement with their views and have threatened to shut me down. (That sounds like your IFB). I have never intentionally maligned, or mischaracterized anyone on this site. I do apologize for implying that Steve seems to believe the NASB to be the most correct translation. (I guess there are at least two of us who don’t, him & me. He said “most people.” Therefore, I assumed he was in the majority.)
All that being said, I do believe in matters of severe character flaws, and criminal conduct, pastors must be brought to discipline. Whether I believe a particular Bible to be the word of God or not, as you say, is not fundamental to the faith, therefore it’s just arguing opinions, and not worth destroying the testimony of Christ’s church. He has protected it for nearly 2000 years, I do not think He needs me now. I think I’ll just go on preaching, and loving the Lord Jesus.
Richard, you are more than welcome here. Just because we don’t agree doesn’t mean we don’t want you here. Many have come to discuss these issues only to leave with tails between legs. I’ve yet to figure out why. I can only surmise that it’s because our view points fly in the face of what you’ve established in your mind to be truth. As a result, if you feel you aren’t welcome then that’s your issue not ours. But there must be boundaries. This is a site ultimately about healing form spiritual abuse so I’ll not allow it to be perpetuated. Just discuss and you’ll be fine.
Also, just to set the record straight, I said most people acknowledge that the NASB is more accurate than the KJV. I never said the NSAB is the most correct translation. There is a HUGE difference and I am astounded that even after I pointed it out to you, you again misquoted me. You seem stuck, like a robot, unable to see anything other than what you are programmed to see. Its sad really and I feel bad for you.
But please stay and continue to discuss. I’ve come to respect Bob, Katie, Greg and other “regulars” here who have great insight into these issues. All I ask is that you give us a chance. Really listen to what we are saying and consider it. Counter our arguments if you must, but do it in a way that shows respect and thoughtful consideration. Remember, our eyes have already been open to the dangers of the IFB. You have come here to disagree with us. As such, you bear the burden of proof.
Looking forward to hearing more from you.
@Steve
Steve,
You being astounded amazes me. I admitted an assumption, apologized for it, and you are not satisfied. Either you did not read my post, or you read it with a preconceived idea that I don’t mean what I say. “I do apologize for implying that Steve seems to believe the NASB to be the most correct translation. (I guess there are at least two of us who don’t, him & me. He said “most people.” Therefore, I assumed he was in the majority.). Please read such words as “apologize” “Implying” “assumed”: Those words were a confession of my failure to understand what you meant in your statement, and an opportunity for you to forgive me for an error. You took it for another chance to attack me unjustly. (You must have learned that from the IFB, it is not Bible).
The reason I feel unwanted is because of your “warning.” You language was very harsh, for someone who has a place to help those who are spiritually abused.
David said to Joab and his brothers, You are to hard for me. (That is not an exact quote). He was not tucking his tail, he was bowing out graciously. David could have had them killed, but he had already learned that violence is not the answer. You, like the sons of Zeruiah, are too hard spirited for me. I am a lover of grace.
As to respecting people on the site, I started out with great admiration for you. Bob seems to be well balanced. Katie by my perception needs to face her hurts, and get beyond them. (It is people that hurt people). This is a long process, but by grace she’ll make it the rest of the way. As for greg, he needs to go back to school and learn English, then he needs to learn how to be respectful, instead of hateful.(I would not be surprised to find out that he has a real anger problem, and needs meds). Steve, I cannot figure you out at all. You seem well thought, but then you start accusing and threatening. (That blew my mind). I may offend you with my beliefs, but I have not been offensive in my approach to anyone, (unless you want to call my assessment of greg such).
I , personally, am sick and tired of people bad mouthing people in order to get over their hurt by those people. My recommendation is that you cast your care upon the Lord,He cares for you. Embrace Him, He is a healer. He is the Sun of Righteousness who rises with healing. The answer is not get it off you chest by finding others who are hurt to help you. The answer is Looking away unto Jesus.
If you cannot respond in grace, please do not respond at all. I don’t feel well and am not in the mood for a bunch of hate filled junk by people who don’t like me. Oh, by the way there is good chance that I am about to be the pastor of a SBC church. I am not as IFB as you think.
Sorry for this folks. I usually don’t get involved in discussions like this because I like the discussions to evolve on their own without my interventions. Sometimes when I get involved, people tend to drop out of the discussion for whatever reason so I like to see the discussions take their own path without my interactions, but I could really sense Richard escalating and getting abusive so I wanted to step in and take the brunt of his anger. It looks like my intuition was correct so I’m glad I did. I would much rather have people like Richard take their anger out on me than others. There is no reasoning with Richard and because of his abusive language, anger and obvious unwillingness to consider others he has been banned. I don’t make decisions like this easily and if Richard wants to apologize he is welcome to send me a private email and I will post it, but I will not risk further escalation from such dogmatic beliefs. Anyone who is interested and willing to comment and further discuss the issues without Richard is welcome. Sorry.
I actually went back and read my few posts. For the life of me I can’t understand Richard’s comment about me needing to learn English. I know I’m not the greatest writer/speaker, however most folks understand what I am attempting to convey, and isn’t that what you’re after when writing/speaking.
Then the anger comment, where does that come from? I think that maybe our friend is not accustomed to folks challenging him, the way we all did, and he got flummoxed (I believe that’s a word, Richard will let us know if not) but hey, he didn’t tell you guys that ya’ll (southern for you all, Richard) that ya’ll (there it is again) had anger issues, hey come to think of it he does do quite abit of analyzing, doesn’t he? Oh well.
Richard – Most of us here love the Lord Jesus with all our hearts, we escaped the IFB with our faith intact!! The bible, which I love more than you’ll ever know, tells me that “whom the Lord sets free is free indeed” I have been set free friend, no more legalism, no more following some arbitrary standards set by some man. I am free!!! I praise the Lord for His mercy and goodness!! He is worthy to be praised!!!
Richard I do hope that you can find some peace and joy, life’s too short. Hey I know you love your KJV, please, please listen to it!!!!
I haven’t visited this site for a few months now, but I am glad I did today! I am afraid Richard is more about defending his religion & the KJV than the Lord. The Lord would not want His name misrepresented the way the IFB does. I know what I am talking about. I was in the IFB movement for over 30 years! We left the cult 6 yrs ago and I have become much stronger in the Lord!
I have found a few sites for those of us who are free from the IFB movement, but this one stands out for the simple reason, from what I have read so far, most on here have left the IFB with their faith in Christ intact and desire to grow in Him. We no longer want traditions of men, but hunger and thirst after Him and Him alone. I am sad to say, Richard doesn’t get that. He seems to think we should just hand over our faith to a “man of god” and blindly follow him. That is the core of the IFB movement. The pastor is pope like and what he says goes. So sad =( I was deceived like that for way too many years and, by the grace of God, I will never. go. back.!
Good words Sandra!!
It saddens me to read all the comments that bash the IFB movement. So far from my experience I have been taught to Love the Lord with all my heart, soul and mind. To build a relationship with the Lord by reading His Word everyday, which will help me to continuously grow spiritually. My Pastor, who openly admits his faults and tells us all the time he is not perfect because he is a sinner just like everyone else, has been someone who I can relate to. He has lead my family in a direction I never would have thought they could go. When I started attending our church my husband and I were seperated and headed for divorce. He was an alcoholic and had been for about 9 years. He has now been sober for over a year and with the help of our church family, prayers and our Pastor, we are working on putting our family back together. My children love attending church and church functions as well. Not because I make them but because they want to. People have the wrong idea about rules and standards. The things that we are being taught are to keep us from becoming enslaved to things of the world, the flesh and the devil. You may think that you want to have “freedom” as you put it but think about what has and is happening in the world right now from having such “freedoms”- alcoholism, drug additions, pornography, immorality, greed and the list goes on and on. Rules and standards are set to keep us from the things that can hurt us and hinder our walk with the Lord. How can we expect our young people to listen to us if we are not willing to submit ourselves to a higher authority as well? How can you say that you want to follow Jesus Christ but yet you don’t want to follow the “rules” or commandments He has so clearly given us? You can’t follow only what suits you and throw the rest out because it doesn’t work with your ‘independant thinking’, that’s not how it works-no church, group, government, school, business…etc can survive without rules and standards! God commands us to go out and share His Gospel with the world, He commands us to seperate ourselves and try to live a clean life. He doesn’t expect us to be perfect, He already knows we are not. Isn’t that why He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins? If going to a place where they are teaching my children to stay pure until marriage, to honor Dad and Mom as God has commanded, to have consideration for others, for a man to love his wife as Christ loved the church, for a wife to reverance her husband and submit to his authority, to go out and talk to others about Jesus, to care so much about someone else’s salvation even when you don’t know them that you go out of your comfort zone to talk to them about God and lead them to Christ so they can go to heaven as well as all the other commandments He gives us is wrong well then I guess I just might be in trouble. It is a risk I am willing to take because I believe what the Bible says not because of what a man has said to me but because God knows what is best for us even if we don’t understand why or He would not have given us such clear instructions. He speaks to me through His Word! No matter what no one can take that away from me. I’m sorry you’ve had such an experiance, which is nothing compared to what Jesus went through to atone for our sins, that you feel you have to say these things! Even so I don’t think that talking about anyone’s religion is right as a matter of fact it is boardering on gossip and if I am not mistaken my friend that is also addressed in the Bible as a “don’t”!
Cynthia – I’m delighted to hear that God is working so powerfully in your family’s life, He is able! All Praise to God!!
Not sure if you are addressing some of my comments, but I will say this as relating to following rules and man’s standards. When I quote God’s Word about Him setting me free, I don’t mean at all that I now have “freedom” to go out and wallow with demons in pits of sin and enjoy myself, not at all, certainly God “expects” His children to follow His Word and live and act accordingly, but I am set free from some simple MOG (man of God) with His basement Bible Diploma (sarcasm, I know) telling me that I can’t listen to contemporary christian music, that my wife can’t wear pants, telling me how long my hair should be, misleading folks about what the bible teaches about tithing, consuming alcoholic drinks etc, that’s what I’m set free from, and of course, mainly I’m set free from the bondage of sin!
Cynthia, I think I probably love God’s Word as much as you or any IFB that has ever posted on this site. It was God’s Word that led me out of the IFB. I fully understand that you also love the Lord and are probably doing your best to follow Him, and I appreciate your dedication to that cause. What I want to point out is that your way is not the only “right” way, there are thousands of christians, striving to serve God that are not in the IFB!! That may shock you, I love the Lord as much as you and am doing my dead level best to serve Him! Steve has ministered to hundreds if not thousands with this site he has provided for folks who have been hurt by many small-minded IFB’s, I would concede that not all are hurtful or small-minded, but I would guess the majority are. God is bigger than what you have been taught to believe. God cares much more about what is on the inside than what is on the outside, just read the gospels, it seems that many IFB’s are more concerned with what’s on the outside.
Let’s finish with some of the precious word. 1 Timothy 4 1-4
“The Spirit clarly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. they forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the Word of God and prayer.”
It saddens me to know that you are saddened by people “bashing the IFB movement” rather than being saddened by all the testimonies of abuse, neglect, hurt and damage caused by the IFB. How shallow. Anyone who defends the abusers (perpetrators) rather than the abused (victims) is, in my book, either brainwashed or just plain ignorant.
This is your first sentence and it made me want to vomit. It negates your entire comment and I couldn’t stomach to read more, but unfortunately I did. You have some serious problems with your thinking and I hope that one day you will re-consider what is truly important before it’s too late.
Who was Jesus speaking to? His Apostles and those who would ultimately follow Him.
Who were the persecutors Jesus was speaking of? The Pharisees and “religious”. These were those who later would crucify Him.
Matthew 5:10-12
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
@ Cynthia
I once was were you are at now. I beleived by following rules set in place made me more Christ like. In reality it left me empty, tired and frustrated. Frustrated that I couldn’t keep the endless rules, nor did I want to. Then, 6 years ago, the Lord removed the veil from my eyes and I saw myself for the vial sinner that I am. He showed me that despite being in the IFB for more that 30 years and praying the “sinners prayer”. Despite being baptized by an “approved” Baptist preacher. Despite serving in various ministries & was at church every time the doors were opened I was NOT truly a child of God. It was then I feel on my knees, repented of my sins and cried out to Him to take my life and do as He will. (Before I go on, I just want to say that is my personal testimony and I am NOT suggesting those in the IFB are unsaved. I was not.)
I would like to share what I’ve learned since leaving the IFB 6 years ago….
The rules you mentioned are all man made rules. Those rules are put in place by man to make him/her live by mans version of what man thinks is required by God to make yourself righteous. In other words, self-righteousness. Jesus had very strong words for those who practiced and enforced self-righteousness. He called them a den of vipers for their righteousness was external NOT internal. Read Matt 23 and you will see for yourself what Jesus has to say about external rules and religion.
Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but NOT in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about GOD’S righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Self-righteousness is living by MANS version of what MAN thinks is required by God and then imposing that standard on others, judging others and their own righteousness by whether or not they keep those standards.
God’s righteousness is internal. God and God alone can transform us into new creatures. That transformation takes place from the inside out. As the Holy Spirit works in our lives He transforms us into His image. That transformation removes ugly, sinful habits from the inside changing our character which shows on the outside. We don’t need a list of do’s and don’ts because our desire has changed from self centered to God centered. We won’t want to engage in sinful activity because we hunger and thirst after God’s righteousness. To hunger and thirst after righteousness is to desire with all our being to live and walk the way GOD says to.
For a man, whom ever he may be, to set in place external rules is a poor attempt to be the Holy Spirit in ones life. All that is accomplished is making the outside look good while the inside is full of dead mans bones.
I also realized that the modern day “pastor” in many churches, including the IFB, is pope like. He has put himself in a postition between man and God. That is NOT where any man belongs nor will I ever go back to a church where the pastor attempts to lord over the lives of others. He has no business doing so. He is to lead by example plain and simple. The Holy Spirit is the transforming power in my life not man! Call me rebellous if you will but my life belongs to Christ and I will guard my relationship with Him.
Sandra – I just want to say that your testimony has blessed me this morning!! How wonderful to worship God without man-made filters, to allow Him to work in our lives, free from the legalism of man, this my good friend is true worship!
Most of our religions, particularly IFB’s have allowed men too much authority and power, it’s really kind of odd because they continously shout and proclaim they follow “only” the bible and yet look at how they lead folks down their little, legalistic paths!! It’s really shameful. God has so much for us than that.
“There is no worse heresy than the fact that the office sanctifies the holder of it.”
“Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
I hate to admit it but these two statements describe too many IFB Pastors.
Greg, I am glad what the Lord has done in my life has blessed you. I pray that others will see that legalism is ugly and leads them farther away from God not near Him for we can’t serve two masters.
Because I personally have witnessed and experienced the many abuses described on this thread, I must add that it is very encouraging to read of what the Lord is doing for the many others who have suffered much of the same. I’m quite certain that those whom the Lord has led out can testify that He has blessed us tremendously by allowing us to suffer and be persecuted for His name sake. At the time of this suffering, it seems to be devastating, but after the fact, I can now thank Him because He allowed it as part of growing in “grace and knowledge” of Him. I, in my flesh, am of little faith, but the Faith of the Holy Spirit who resides in me has allowed for me to rest in Him. He alone knows what He is doing in believers lives and why. We have been warned of false teachers. Now we can testify of and warn others who have His Spirit. IF they do have His Spirit, we know He is Faithful to lead His sheep where He will. They will have their spiritual eyes opened as we have. We all are right where He wants us at any given moment of our walk with Him.
He is Our Gracious Merciful God and is continuing to bless us!
The flesh cries at suffering, but His Spirit in us is Our Comforter!
John 15:18
Lol you guys are funny. This site really doesnt describe a IFB church. Just fwi
@John Doe
“You’re wrong” isn’t a very strong counter argument. And laughing at people??? Is that really how an IFBer should be acting? Shame on you.
PS – I wonder why you don’t give your real name? If you know the truth, why hide?
Because John Doe is an undercover agent. He and his church are the only true church with all the secret codes and messages, if you join up you will get a special decoder ring, (oh and a one-of-a-kind 1611 KJV, signed by Jack Hyles. oh goody!) and you too can run around poking fun at people w/out any substantial message, just pouring hot legalism on people and watching them squirm, and having all the answers to the questions that no one is asking.
John Doe – Please examine yourself with the mirror of God’s Word and see if you feel that Jesus would have responded in the way you have here.
@greg
Lol once again I have to laugh because you guys are just funny. I laugh because no matter what I say…you think Im wrong and your right. Your right about IFB, your right about your interpretation of God’s Word, your right about your version of the Bible whatever and I think youre wrong is a sufficient counter argument. This is because you murmur and complain about specific situations, about specific people, with specific circumstances. The fact is I am an Indepdent Fundamental Baptist. I was going to show you why I say you guys are wrong, but I was wondering why do you think Im wrong or “bad” for being and “IFB?”
PS Greg You’re a little strange….can we talk like adults in this blog. please. We really should talk about your last comment
John Doe :
Laughing again… Not sure why you are laughing at people who have been abused and are hurting. It’s not very kind. I’ve met atheists who wouldn’t even laugh at what the people here have been through. That’s not very nice nor is it a reflection of Jesus.
So now we are right? Do you think we are wrong or right? I’m confused.
I don’t remember anyone saying “I’m right” so “your wrong” doesn’t fit. It would be nice for you to point to specifics instead of making the fallacy of sweeping generalizations. I would say open minded is a better term than “right”.
Exaclty, we give specifics while you give nothing except “your wrong”. Besides, what’s wring with “murmuring and complaining”?
This isn’t a personal attack against you. I have no idea if you are right or wrong because you haven’t shared your beliefs. Why are you taking it personally?
This entire site is dedicated to why we think the IFB is wrong and “bad”. I can’t figure out how you missed that. The difference is we say the IFB is wrong/bad and then tell why we think that, while you say “your wrong” and then don’t tell us why you think that. A counter argument would be appreciated rather than a generic “your wrong”.
Calling someone “strange” isn’t very nice either. I don’t think your IFB friends would appreciate the way you are talking to us. You are very mean. You make me glad I’m not IFB anymore.
@Charles
Alright. First off you really do talk to much. haha. =) and you never really answered my question…in fact you avoided it altogether. Lol I think before dissecting my conversation I think you should focus and the question I asked, not avoid it. I want to see why you think Independent Fundamental Baptist like I are “wrong, or mean, or abusive, or whatever other adjective your want to put in here.”
Okay lets start at the top about the laughing. I was laughing only at those who were not hurt or abused by the “IFB”….cant you tell. Lol haha, but really its funny how guys setup an entire site to talk about how others wronged you. That is funny. This is because Im pretty sure no one in this world is perfect so you really should expect to get hurt everywhere…..even in church! It is sad that people get hurt in church, but it really shouldnt matter because when I get hurt or get down I don’t take my troubles to a website or put it on my facebook. I actually take my matters, concerns, problems, troubles, and etc.. to God. Im pretty sure he can do a lot more than a website could ever for me…right? =)
About the your right part of my conversation. If you read the entire letter in full you would read. “I laugh because no matter what I say…you think Im wrong and your right. Your right about IFB, your right about your interpretation of God’s Word, your right about your version of the Bible whatever.” I was saying Im pretty sure “You think your right about IFB and about the rest of the things i listed. This is one reason why you should have answered my question. So we could clear this matter up. This method of reading the entire passage also helps out in reading the Bible. Its so you can get the context, not just pick out verses to defend what you think.( Keep in mind i know we could talk a lot about this and we can, but please answer my first question fully, “What Do you Believe is wrong with the IFB?”) Lol and about the openminded comment. =) We can talk later about that.=)
Next paragraph, lol. If you would have answered my question you would have listed out those specific reasons why IFB are wrong or whatever adjective you want to place here. Also your comment….”Besides, what’s wring with “murmuring and complaining”?”Umm well Phil 2:14 can answer that one for you if you believe the Bible.(I honestly dont know cuz you never really said, but if you do….good.
Next paragraph again. . . I think if you say my way of thinking is wrong, or whatever negative adjective you want to place here, then Im pretty sure its attack against me. I said I was an “IFB.” If you explain whats wrong with IFB ill tell you why you may potentially be wrong. Also you have a site dedicated to it so it should be easy to accumulate a couple or a lot of reasons why IFB are “wrong,bad, mean, etc.”
Lol and Greg is a little strange. In only one paragraph he described me as an undercover agent with secret codes and messages with a special decoder ring, also with an authentic 1611 KJV signed by Jack Hyles, someone who i really dont know. Then he said Oh goody! (Honestly if a man says that I gotta question him) Then said i was pouring legalism as if it was hot lava on people and then watch them squirm. And all that was said after I said 15 words, “Lol you guys are funny. This site really doesnt describe a IFB church. Just fwi” Seems kinda strange to me. I think anyone not only a IFB would agree he is a little strange.
But remember before all this answer the question, “What Do you Believe is wrong with the IFB? Thanks =)
Ttyl
@John Doe
Yes I did answer your question. I told you that the site already lists the reasons why the IFB is wrong/bad (see the list in the right hand sidebar). I agree with the site so why waste time repeating whats already on the site. Just read what’s on the site and then if you want to share why you disagree then feel free.
You’ve done a great job of excusing the abuse. You’ve effectively hand waved the issues and minimized other people’s struggles and perspectives. Not very caring or empathetic of you (pathetic but not empathetic).
So how to you contrast Philippians 2:14 with Galatians 5:7-12, 1 Timothy 4:1-5 and Titus 1:10-16 where we are admonished to expose false teachers??? You view this site as “murmuring and complaining” where I see it as exposing false and dangerous teachers. Philippians 2:14 by the way is a recommendation not a command, and it’s not a complete thought. The thought continues through verse 15 (and you accused me of pulling scripture out of context and using it to fit my argument – you hypocrite. Maybe you should pull the log out of your own eye before you try and find the speck in my eye).
You’re taking this site personally, but I can’t help that. That’s your issue not mine. This isn’t a personal attack against you.
This isn’t my site. As I’ve already stated, this site has already accumulated reasons why the IFB is wrong/bad/mean etc. It’s a waste of time to repeat it. Just read the site and pick something you disagree with and then offer a counter argument.
About Greg: Greg is using sarcasm. It’s a form of humor. That doesn’t mean that Greg is weird. It just means that your are too closed minded (or brainwashed) to see the obvious.
Again, if you want to know what I believe is wrong with the IFB, read what’s on the site. I agree with the site so what Steve thinks is wrong I agree with him.
@Charles
haha you speak of having an open mind I kind of doubt it. You are hopeless. No matter what you say the fact is you are hopeless. And i know you will try to twist this around, but you are.
Phil 2:14 if you know any greek the word do is not a suggestion its actually in the imperative or command form. So where you got your interpretation that it was a suggestion once again proves you need to improve on studying your Bible.
Also once again you did not answer my question. If you believe so strongly on what you believe you wouldnt have a hard time listing them out right? Your almost like those people in the occupy wallstreet thing…..Why are you here……because of many reasons…..What are they……..I dont know.=)haha
And what i said about those hurting people is true whether you believe it or not. God can do much more than you or I or a website could do. I dont think when David was down he talked about it to others…..he took his troubles to the Lord.
And greg is weird. Its shows he does before he thinks.
Ill keep praying for you. =)
Hey John – Looks like Charles has answered all of your questions.
My comments were exactly as Charles explained, sarcasm, that was directed to your comment claiming that we were “funny” that reminds me of a joke “Why don’t cannibals eat clowns? Answer: “Because they taste funny” Of course that has nothing to do with the subect at hand, but that doesn’t matter because this is the way strange people act!!! (that would be more sarcasm)
I think most of us that visit this site are christians who have been spiritually abused, many of us by the IFB. I am one of those. I have told parts of my story elsewhere on this site.
I found this site about 2 years ago, and was and am very thankful for it and for Steve, and for God laying this “ministry” on his heart, and yes I consider this “ministry.”
My experience with the IFB’s is that they seem to have all the answers and if anyone believes differently, they will be ostracized and eventually shown the door, not saying all, but this has been my experience. I know there are many good folks in the IFB, that are attempting to do good work, no doubt. But can you see, how you came rolling in here and calling hurting folks funny, fitting the exact sterotype of the know-it-all fundy IFB!!
Remember: All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in rightousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16
You mentioned about discussing my comment. I am willing to discuss anything with you, if you will be respectful.
So if I’m hopeless then why are you arguing with me and trying to change what I believe? The last time I checked only God knows someone’s heart. The IFB tries to play God so I’m not surprised about your judging me.
RE: Phil 2:14 – The last time I checked “do” is an English word not a Greek word. Paul is speaking in Phil 2:14. Paul can’t command us to do anything. Only God can command. By the way I said RECOMMENDATION not “suggestion”. So what was that about twisting words?
Also once again I did answer your question. What do you want me to do copy and past the entire site into a comment box? Read the site and you will know what I believe and why I believe it. But if you really want a list then here you go:
Topics
01. Overview of the IFB Church
02. Doctrine of Separation Deception
03. Spiritual Abuse
04. Tithing Deception
05. Spanking Deception
06. Mental Health Deception
07. Emails Received
08. What in the world?!?!
09. Shared Stories
10. Discussions
11. KJV Only Deception
12. IFB Commonalities
13. ‘Jesus and the Law’
14. ‘Sin Breaks Fellowship’ Deception
15. ‘GoD and DoG’ Video
16. Intellectualization Deception
17. Quotable Quotes
18. Arv Edgeworth Deception
19. Peace in Decisions Deception
20. “Bible Believing” Deception
21. ABC’s 20/20 Exposes IFB Abuse
22. “Independent” Deception
23. Harold Camping – Epic Fail!
24. Bill Zeller Suicide Note
25. Is the IFB a cult?
Can you please show me in the Bible where God tells us to only pray about our hurts and not talk to other people about it? I can’t find that anywhere.
I’m not sure what part of David’s life you are referring to, but I’m assuming that you are talking about II Samuel 11 when he committed adultery and murder? Well if so, David was talking to God because he sinned not because he was abused. There is a big difference in being “down” because you sinned and being “down” because you’ve been abused. I would have thought that you were smart enough to know that given the way you mock others and tout your knowledge of the bible.
Did you ever think that this site and the information contained herein could be used by God to help others? I guess according to you and the IFB God can’t use people since we can only go to Him directly? In the Bible God used people to fulfill his purpose he didn’t do everything himself.
Don’t bother praying for me. I want God’s will in my life not the IFB’s will.
@greg
Sure im willing to talk if you can talk like an adult and not go on about secret agents and what not……Do you want to have an adult conversation?
@Charles
haha about the word do. Where do you think that english word came from? Which language was the Bible originally written in…..english……i think not. I pretty sure you know very little on Bible study. lol So concerning that last part of that paragraph do you believe the Bible is Man’s Word and not God’s Word? I think you should answer that.
Lol and about your list. If what you believe is copy and pastable wow…….I really shows you dont know what you believe. Probably if I added “Dogs can go to heaven to that list, you probably just might believe it.” This is bceause its on the list. haha jk but seriously Im pretty sure you dont know what you believe.
Concerning the prayer thing. Can you show me in the Bible where it says dont go to God and only talk to others about it? David once again is a perfect example when he was being hunted down by soul. Read through the Psalms you see David talking to the Lord aobut his troubles. Asking him to take care of it. (By the way dont assume things, it wastes both of our time. Me reading it and you talking about….and im referring to Your whole david paragraph) lol
Actually now that ive read your entire paragraph you really do assume a lot. Thats sad, but concering your last paragraph, What if this site does not contain things that help others become closer to God. What if this actually pulls people farther from God. I think you got serious issues beause your last comment. Ill still pray to the same God you believe in that you will become more Biblical not more IFB, not less IFB, but more Biblical. By the way you talk it seems you take to much of your beliefs from this site than from the Bible itself. If thats the case then you are truly hopeless
@greg
By the way greg the clown joke was a joke. Describing someone as a secret agent and whatever else you said technically isnt really a joke. You were more describing who you thought i was then waiting to give a punchline.
I used to go to a Fundamental Independent Baptist Church, which I call it the place, instead of the church. I quit 5 months ago. The reason is because I, simply, kissed the so-called pastor’s little daughter on her head, which I was showing godly affection. Instead, when he saw me kissing his daughter on her head, he became paranoid and disturbed and he told me not to do it anymore. The phony pastor told me that he knows me for a long time and I cannot believe that he told me this. It makes me feel that he looks at me as if I was a sex offender. I come from a Greek cultural background that kissing children or even anybody, regardless of age, is very normal with me. The so-called pastor is very narrow minded. Besides the phony pastor, the other idiots of the church are very snobby and I do not like the way how they defend the phony pastor and they do not have any wisdom to be broad-minded to understand other peoples’ cultural background. I have never done any harm to children nor to anybody. God is my witness. Now, I do not feel comfortable to go anymore to any Fundamental Independent Baptist churches or churches as I call them the places. I feel that the place that I used to go has a very corrupt spirit, instead of the true spirit from God. Where is God’s affection in the place where I used to go? There isn’t any.
Troll Alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@John Doe
You said “if you know any greek the word do…”. The word “do” is distinctly an English word. The word “do” in Phil 2:14 isn’t a Greek word and isn’t even of Greek origin. The Greek word for do is “tithénai” and it means “to set, put”. This word “do” in Phil 2:14 is probably from the German “tun“, akin to the Latin “facere” which means “to make”. In other words, Phil 2:14 could be translated “make this happen”. Paul was saying, “make this happen” or “this need to happen”, but he wasn’t saying you must do this. There is a difference. In other words Paul was highly recommending this course of action. He wasn’t telling us that God is commanding us to do this.
So what was that about knowing very little on Bible study? If you’re going to argue with a Bible scholar, and accuse him of not knowing the Bible, you damn well better know what the hell you’re talking about and be able to back up what you write. Otherwise you prove yourself to be more of a brainwashed idiot than you already are.
So you asked for a list, I provided one and now that’s not good enough because I only copied and pasted? What do you want then? Do you want me to re-write what’s already written in my own words? Will that suffice? Yes, I already told you that what’s on the site is what I believe so yes, it is “copy and pastable” – duh. If Steve ever writes anything that I disagree with then I will exclude that from what I copy and paste.
I could accuse you of the same thing. You’re essentially “copying and pasting” from the IFB dogma. It may not be in written form, but you are doing nothing more than simply regurgitating IFB teachings. It doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure that one out.
By the way, if you added “Dogs can go to heaven” to the list then I wouldn’t believe it because it came from you. What part of I AGREE WITH STEVE don’t you understand? You probably don’t know what I believe because you refuse to take the time to read the site.
I never said “don’t go to god and only talk to other about it” so I don’t have to show you where that is because I don’t believe that. Don’t put words in my mouth. By the way, how do you know I don’t go to God about things? Are you trying to be a mind reader or something? If so you’re not very good at it. If not, then you’re simply perpetuating IFB judgmentalism so congrats on that. More evidence of brainwashing.
I guess you can just ignore David’s friend and confidant Jonathan and their relationship then eh? What about I Samuel 20?
By the way it was King Saul who was after David. There is no such person in the Bible named “soul”. Perhaps you should learn to spell before you try to educate people on Bible interpretation.
And what did I make assumptions about? You accused me of making assumptions but you never said what I was assuming.
Again, what exactly am I assuming?
I could ask you the same question. What if the IFB really does pull people further from God? I think you got serious issues because of your entire diatribe. By the way you talk it seems you take too much of your beliefs from the IFB rather than from the Bible itself. If that’s the case then YOU are truly hopeless. – See, it swings both ways.
As long as you pray for God’s will in my life and not God’s will as taught by the IFB I’ll thank you for your prayers. I don’t think that you can, though, given the evidence that the IFB is interwoven around everything you believe and talk about.
@Charles
Ok lets focus at one thing at time because you need to focus. About the greek word….Where did we get our english translation of the Bible? Please answer this and only this.
@John Doe
I need to focus??? You’re a piece of work you know that? I’m just replying to you. So if you want me to focus then you need to focus.
I’m afraid that you need to narrow down your question a bit. There are entire books dedicated to answering the question “where did we get our English translation of the Bible”. You should read those books if you want to know.
But I have a sneaky suspicion that you are not really interested in an answer to the question “where did we get our English translation of the Bible”. What’s really your question? What is your motivation behind such a question?
@Charles
So you really dont know where we got our english Bible from? You just believe what someone else said in a book? Where do you think we got our Bible from? Did we get it from aliens (by the way some people believe this….weird) or did we translate the original text the Bible was written in into our english language?
@John Doe
Yes I know where we got our English Bible From.
No I don’t “JUST believe what someone else said in a book”, but books are the traditionally accepted way of learning. How would you recommend I learn if not from books?
No I don’t believe we got it from aliens – please don’t patronize me.
I’m not sure who you are referring to by “we” when you ask “did we translate the original text…”. Care to explain? John Wycliffe was the first to translate the Bible into English and he used the Latin Vulgate as his source. But there’s a lot more to the story. If you want to learn the history of how we got our English Bible then you will need to research it on your own. But good luck with that if you’re against reading books.
Now I’ve answered your questions, why don’t you answer mine?
@Charles
So we got our Bible from the Latin Vulgate. Was the Bible written first in Latin? By the way Im against Copy and paste beliefs and believing what one person said, but rememeber focus on the question? lol Focus.
@John Doe
No, that’s not what I said.
It’s not known for certain, but some of the manuscripts were in Latin so it’s possible that at least part of the original text was in Latin.
Me too.
I’ll focus if you focus. Still waiting for you to answer my questions… lol (said sarcastically while rolling my eyes)
@Charles
So was the Bible ever written in Hebrew, Greek, or Arabic?
@John Doe
Again, it’s not known, but the consensus is that the original languages for the OT were Hebrew and Aramaic and for the NT Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. No Arabic.
You better get to your point soon. This is getting old.
Still waiting for you to answer my questions.
Good just testing you and it pretty is well known that those were the languages the Bible was originally written in. Now that we established that the OT was written in Hebrew and Aramaic and the NT was written in Greek lets head back to Phil 2:14. Was that written originally in Greek or Latin?
@John Doe
Probably Greek. Stop patronizing me!!! This is your last chance. What’s your point???
@Charles
Im not Patronzing you. It just takes a little longer because im teaching you something. Well in Phil 2:14, since it was written in the Greek, the sentence was ????? ??????? ????? ????????? ??? ???????????. The Word ??????? is the Greek word for “Do.” If you parsed that word do you would see it it in the imperative form which is a command form. This means when it was written down God intended this word not to be, “Well, I hope you ll listen to me….if not its ok. No. God said DO all things without murmuring and complaining.