Every once in a while I’ll get an email message from someone within the IFB church scolding me for this site. I thought it would be enlightening to post those email messages on the site for all to see. I’ll post my responses, if any, as well. The emails will be posted with the most recent at the top. Keep in mind that I get MANY emails of support and thankfulness as well, but these emails below serve to help prove our point about the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church.
This message came from Steve Miller:
your site is a waste. please focus on helping the wounded instead of being a self made vigilante. So many are hurting. Help them. >/em>
Thanks for the encouragement Steve. It’s always nice to hear from the disgruntled IFB showing wonderful Christian love. By the way, this site is focused on helping the wounded, but I guess you don’t consider spiritual abuse as something that wounds?
PS – A vigilante is one who violently takes the law into his/her own hands without recourse to lawful procedures. Just an FYI. The next time you email to chide me, you would be wise to use the proper terminology. It may make you seem less stupid.
This message came from Pastor James Thomas in the comments section and I moved it here.
I would like to start off with an apology to all who have had a bad experience at a IFB.I am a preacher at one and we do stand up for what we belive in, but i think that any one would do the same if they have something that they have faith in. I have attended other churches in my lifetime and have listened to many other preachers, ministers, pastors, and priests many of which have read out of The King James Bible, Im sorry that others cannot accept that we as baptist have chosen to stay with that version of the bible we have our opinions and you have yours. We all as children of God have the gift of choice and free will to exercise as we see fit. I would like to thank you for youre site that some will be carefull as to what kind of church they attend but we as Baptist people are not the only denomination that contain misled church opinion or teachings in the other churches I have attended I have found several of many denominations that you could put into that clasification. Thank you and God Bless From: A Loving Preacher James Thomas
Hi Pastor Thomas,
Thanks for writing. I’m not sure who the “all” is that you are apologizing to. This is a private contact form and the message only goes to me. I’ll be glad to post it on the site if you wish, but at this point if you want to extend your apology to “all” you will have to write in the comments section.
I love getting email messages and responding so I appreciate you taking the time to write. Let me try and address some of your thoughts.
First of all, there is no such thing as the “King James Bible”. There is a King James VERSION of the Bible, but there is no King James Bible. This is a common mistake the KJV Onlyists make. It’s an error that has been taught to us that somehow the KJV is God’s inspired Bible. Nothing could be further from the truth. I talk a lot about this on the site. You can read about that here: http://www.baptistdeception.com/kjv-only-deception/
Secondly, I’m afraid that I don’t share your thoughts that these are merely “opinions”. Since when were truths of God’s Word simply opinions? This site exposes abuses, manipulations, deceptions and false teachings. Those are bold claims, and as such aren’t spoken of lightly. I’m sorry to inform you, Pastor, that our differences are not just differences of opinion, but in fact are differences in Biblical exegesis. If you are one day willing to step away from the Baptist teachings for a moment and open your mind to the sin of denominational differences, you may be able to see more clearly the perspective that I and others on the site have.
Finally, I’m not sure what your motivation is for writing or why you make such implications as the exercise of “free will” when it comes to this topic. Your thoughts are somewhat broken and disjointed and they leave me with more questions than information. It is a bit of a mystery to me why you wrote and more specifically why you wrote what you did. I hope that you would be willing to expound on your thoughts. If not I understand.
Thanks again for writing.
Email from Larry.
you give the definition of what a baptist is. very correct. i am guessing the church you went to did not fit this definition. sorry to here that. not all are that way, you should find a good baptist church and go there.
This message came from “Modesty Matters” in the comments section and I moved it here.
Modesty in clothing that we wear is important. I am ashamed that many people, women especially, go to the beach and pool and wear swimsuits. Folks, even one piece swimsuits are cut up to the private area of a female and cover what panties cover. Two pieces are colored bra and panties. The Devil has slipped immodest dress into many Christians’ lives. Take a stand and honor God’s view on clothing–down to the knees for both sexes.
Can you show me in scripture what “God’s view on clothing” is? While modesty has it’s place, it’s an area of our lives that the church has long tried to manipulate and control. I don’t think that modesty is as important as the IFB makes it out to be. This is just another area of abuse within the IFB.
This message came from Lisa on 2/9/10 in the comments section and I moved it here.
here’s my question, and i have read all replies on this page..if this site is only about IFB, why label it ‘baptistdeception’..which, as was my initial thought (and perhaps lingering), alluded to ALL baptists church denoms.
i see a lot of what you say in your story in the stories of people across the board of believers/churchgoers..not just this one ‘denom’. and it makes me sad to think how many people end up ‘hating the sin AND the sinner’, exposing wrongs with nary a hint of encouragement or lifting-up of the brethren. is this not the pot calling the kettle black?
i am not a debater, and probably won’t check back again to this site, just feeling a lot of hate and still-in-need of healing coming from its author. with all the gusto you have to point out the heresies/whatnots of the IFB, i hope you can one day find it possible to forgive..as Christ forgives.
Your mistake is limiting your research to just the replies on the page. Had you actually read the information on the page your questions would have been answered as you read “Most Baptist churches are very similar to the IFB. Some are a little different and may be less strict or have different stances on scripture, but for the most part they are all very similar.” (taken from the third paragraph in the above post).
Ultimately, however, we chose that domain name for a number of reasons. For one, “independentfundamentalbaptistdeception.com” is just too long and not a very good domain name. Other reasons are shared in the site.
The reality of it is that IFB churches have started to attempt to re-define themselves by changing surface things such as their name, service format, etc. Some change from “Independent Fundamental Baptist” to “_________ (fill in the blank) Baptist”. Some are attempting to give the appearance that they aren’t IFB, but nothing has changed except for the name and they are still IFB in their teachings and traditions. In using “Baptist Deception” we are communicating that all Baptist churches are run in a similar way to the IFB. This site serves as a warning to others; therefore we want people to evaluate their church for abusive teachings whether they go to an IFB or another type of Baptist church.
Please note, we are anti-spiritual abuse, not really anti-IFB. If the IFB could be fixed so that is wasn’t abusive we would be all in favor of IFB denominations. We feel that that is impossible and changing what is abusive about the IFB will fundamentally change the IFB so that they would no longer be able to stand as a denomination. Therefore it’s a bit futile to try and not be anti-IFB.
I can only speak from my experiences. I don’t comment on other denominations or religions because I haven’t experienced them. This site is about my experiences. I state that very clearly on the site.
This is not a case of “the pot calling the kettle black” because this site is about exposing the wrongs of the IFB. This site isn’t a church so to compare it to a church is an unfair comparison. Churches are not supposed to hurt people!!! As I say on the site, if churches wouldn’t hurt people I wouldn’t need this site. To “lift up the brethren” and pretend that nothing bad happens in church is to perpetuate the issues and neglect the need for a solution. This site isn’t about praise. It’s about trying to fix what’s wrong. Churches aren’t above the need for criticism and critique. It’s not the duty of the one who critiques to also offer praise, which would be counter productive.
Your feelings are not accurate. You are making a judgment based on a few comments you’ve read. Had you taken the time to read the site and ask questions rather then pass a quick judgment you may be able to understand better. Your unwillingness to return to the site and listen to my defense is closed minded and shows your unwillingness to consider the experiences and opinions of others.
Also, your assumption that I haven’t forgiven those who have hurt me is nothing short of arrogant and judgmental. One can speak out about the wrongs done in the name of Christ and at the same time not hold grudges. Just because I share my experiences doesn’t mean I haven’t forgiven. Your “holier-then-though” attitude is a shining example of what I speak out against and if you ever do want to return to the site I only hope that you will maintain an open mind long enough to listen and understand before you pass judgment.
This message came from Peter on 1/7/10 in the comments section and I moved it here.
Wow. This website is garbage. Honestly. Here we have a bunch of born again Christians that should be acting like Jesus, yet instead of praying for the people which you think are incorrect in what they believe, you create a website that puts down your own brothers and sisters in Christ. I’m guessing who ever made this website went to a baptist church, got mad because the preacher was telling it how it is, got mad because the preacher said what people needed to hear and not what they want to hear, and didnt like how the preacher said that if you werent saved you would go to hell. I guess what people are looking for these days is somewhere where the preacher lies to them and puts an entertaining rock show for them.
Thanks for being a shining example of the IFB mentality. I am acting like Jesus. Jesus told us to expose those who currupt the Word of God and Paul admonishes us to search the scriptures to make sure that what we are being taught is truth (see Acts 17). That’s what I’m doing. The very fact that you don’t like it is a good indication that I’m doing the right thing. Also, what makes you think I’m not praying for the people I think are incorrect? Why do you make assumptions about me rather then ask questions?
I think you’ve misunderstood the message of this site. This website doesn’t “put down” anyone, just the IFB. Is the IFB a brother to you? That’s kind of weird. If you’ve taken the message of this site personally then that’s your issue not mine.
You don’t have to guess why I put this site online. I’ve been very candid about my experiences and beliefs.
This site does speak out against preachers who speak lies. That’s one of the biggest reasons why I made this site, to speak out against the IFB and its lies. I’m not sure what rock shows have to do with this site. Care to ellaborate?
This message is from a Pastor JLR who wrote a comment in the comments section on 10/10/09
Hello everyone. This will be my last posting on this website.
I have read Adam’s website and articles very carefully, and this is my conclusion to the matter.
Firstly, I am an IFB preacher. I have had my training in IFB colleges, and I plan on establishing and pastoring a IFB church. I believe God’s Word, the Bible, and all that it says and teaches. Friends, our first loyalty must and always be to the Word of God, not to a church, a preacher, a denomination, or tradition. Let me specify though, God commands us to be a part of a local church for our edification and ministry. If a preacher has proven himself to be faithful to the Word of God and to the calling of a pastor (bishop in 1 Timothy), then he should be counted worthy of double honor. If our core beliefs (which should be the doctrines of the Bible) line up with a certain denomination, then there is nothing wrong with lining yourself with one.
I have experienced much in my relatively short time in the minsitry, and I can honestly say this with full sincerity, there are those out there, whether they are IFB or some other label, that are wolves in sheep’s clothing. They will take the Scriptures and twist them to teach what they want to teach. Some of these things I know are taught sometimes by men who call themselves IFB. However, it comes down to my previous statement: our first loyalty must always be to the Word of God! If we observe something that is wrong, then we have a spiritual obligation to rebuke and inform.
Admin, no doubt you have been hurt of people in the past who were in the IFB camp. I have myself at times. It hurts, and it cannot be denied or put under a rug. Some of these issues that you have posted on this website I agree can be and are harmful and can be damaging. However, I think somethings are simply showing a vendetta of bitterness that you have in your heart. If you have repented of your sins and have trusted Christ for your salvation, then you are a brother in the Lord. As a fellow brother, I would like to encourage you in to areas:
1. First Brother, we need to be willing to forgive those who have hurt us. They may not repent, and that is their choice and they will be held accountable to God Himself, and that alone is a scary thought. But we need to guard ourselves against bitterness and hate towards people, and this website has hatred pouring off almost every word. Hatred is a poisen, and I think you good-intentions can and probably are having a reverse effect. Please consider what I’m saying. I will definately be praying for you in this regard.
2. Secondly, I sense (and I could be wrong) that you are spending so much time trying to expose the terrible, wicked, evil IFB movement, that you have forgotten you first and primary calling and work as a Christian, and that is to preach the Gospel to the lost. That is our first responsibility brother. If an unsaved person visits your website, most will probably have this opinon afterwards, “See, why should I become a Christian? They just like to devour eachother.” You;ve been hurt by those who have used God’s Word unjustly in areas to devour you. Yet, you are turning around and devouring both the good and the bad. (Even if you are not intentionally meaning to do so). How much time do you spend writing, contributing and managing this website, when you could be out preaching the Gospel, visiting people in their homes, handing out tracts, preaching in the streets, and seeing people saved. The time is short, and I truly feel the Lord is going to return soon. We do not have time to get sidetracted and distracted by some of these things. If you have the Gospel right, and I mean the Biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ, salvation by grace through faith ALONE, PLUS NOTHING, then you need to get out there brother and tell people. Stop all this, and lets get to work.
I have not tried to write this in a “judging” sounding way, but I feel that I needed to be a little confrontational. If you would like to respond to this privately, I would welcome it. You should have my email registered on the website. Feel free to drop me a line.
In Christ’s Love,
You invited me to “drop [you] a line” in response to your post on my site, so I thought I would take you up on that and try to have a discussion about the thoughts you have. I appreciate you sharing your heart and I didn’t think you were being judgmental. I don’t think you quite understand where I’m coming from, though, so I wanted to take this opportunity to share a little more from my perspective. Hopefully you will better understand my position as a result. I also see some major inconsistencies in your message that I would like to point out.
I think that you are missing a great opportunity to gain a more thorough understanding of scripture and even Christianity by limiting yourself to the IFB. By getting your training only in IFB beliefs you are in essence doing exactly what I discourage on the site, following the teachings of a particular denomination rather then scripture. You say that “our first loyalty must and always be to the Word of God, not to a church, a preacher, a denomination, or tradition” yet you are adhering to a particular church, denomination and a tradition (the IFB). If all you’ve ever known is the IFB then how could you NOT promote those things?
You say that “God commands us to be a part of a local church for our edification and ministry.” Where is that found in the Bible? Why do you assume that because I reject the IFB that I’m not “part of a local church”?
Also, can you point to the passage of scripture where God tells us to align with a denomination? If core beliefs should be the doctrines of the Bible (which I agree with) then why are there even different denominations? Shouldn’t all Christians have the same core beliefs if they are the doctrines of the Bible? Ultimately, If core beliefs are based on the doctrines of the Bible then there wouldn’t be ANY denominations since denominations aren’t Biblical. Since denominations aren’t Biblical then how can the IFB be Biblical?
It’s easy to see (at least for me) that the IFB adds to the Biblical doctrines and creates a belief system that is extra Biblical (as I discuss on the site). As a result, I believe that all IFB are “sheep in wolves clothing” as you put it, since they “take the Scriptures and twist them to teach what they want to teach” as you warn.
You say that “If we observe something that is wrong, then we have a spiritual obligation to rebuke and inform.” This is what I’m doing yet you condemn my site and accuse me of essentially wasting my time when it could be better spent in other ways. Why would you state “If we observe something that is wrong, then we have a spiritual obligation to rebuke and inform” then rebuke me for doing just that? Not everyone is called to the ministry of evangelism. Some are called to the ministry of counseling and spiritual guidance. If there are only evangelism where would the other gifts of the spirit come in? Your assertion that I should be evangelizing rather then showing mercy, teaching or counseling is a bit arrogant don’t you think? Do you really believe that YOU know what God has called me to do? This IS a ministry. I’m ministering to people who have been hurt by the IFB, yet you accuse me of “devouring” (whatever that means) and being bitter. Please tell me that you see your inconsistencies here!
I’m not trying to be cynical, I’m just trying to get you to see your double standard and twisted way of thinking. It very much seems from your message that if I’m not doing things the IFB way then it’s wrong – at least that’s the message I get.
Also, this site has done the opposite of what you fear. Instead of turning people away from God, as you think it does, it has served to help people experience freedom from the IFB and a true relationship with God that isn’t based on false teachings, legalism and authoritarian beliefs. You assume that people are turned away from God because of my site, but refuse to acknowledge the good things that this site is doing – ironically yet again the very thing you accuse me of doing.
Finally, what makes you think that I haven’t forgiven those who have hurt me? Just because I have a website that speaks out against he hurtful beliefs, traditions and teachings of the IFB doesn’t mean I haven’t forgiven those who have hurt me. That’s a bit presumptuous don’t you think?
Anyway, I appreciate your prayers and I’m glad that you are willing to spend time lifting me up in prayer. I only hope you realize, however, that your prayers are going towards what God wants me to be doing not what YOU want.
Feel free to continue the discussion. I enjoy the intellectual challenge of these types of debates and hopefully you will gain a better understanding of where I’m coming from as a result.
Unfortunately, this person never wrote back.
This message is from James who wrote a comment in the comments section on 8/30/09 – removed by Site Moderator
What a bunch of backslidden, compromising whiners!
Thanks, James, for being an example of what this site speaks out against.
This message is from Jacob received on 7/22/09
Interesting website. I am NOT a baptist, I don’t even go to church. I have seen to many churches (baptist are the worst) like the ones you describe, and have met people like you that bad mouth everyone coming and going and decided I want no part of it. I am a Professor at a University here in South Carolina. I really just wanted to say that your website lacks any kind of argument. Reading through your posting, you say the same things over and over again. It is like you copy and paste them. You don’t address what is being asked. In your conversations you simply say ‘I am right and you are wrong!’ Baptist might be arrogant and controlling, but you are not changing minds or impressing anyone with your replies. The lack of rebuttal in your website makes me think you have a lack of knowledge about the whole issue at hand. All that can be gathered from your website is that you are mad, bitter, and can not debate to save your life. What are you really trying to accomplish? Maybe you should let it go and move on with life, or at least reply to the comments instead of typing the same thing over and over.
This person gave bogus contact information so my reply is only posted here.
Well, if you’re not a Baptist and you don’t even go to church then what does it matter to you. Perhaps you should stick to whatever topic you teach and leave me alone. I will concede that I have no formal training in philosophy of religion, however, it doesn’t take a genius to understand that I keep repeating myself because people come here with the same tired rebuttals, arguments and complaints. I have no choice but to repeat myself. Have you even read the whole site? What about the discussions page? You may find some sound logical reasoning there.
I’m not really interested in defending what I write. I’m glad to have a discussion if you want to pick something you disagree with and present a counter argument for it, but I simply don’t have time to entertain every one who comes to this site to object about what I write. Like you, others have come to this site to declare their disagreement with it, however, also like you, they lake a specific argument. They only present a generic, “your site is wrong” message and then get angry when I don’t respond the way they want.
I don’t have this site up to “change minds or [impress people] with my replies” as you think. You’ve misunderstood the message of this site. This site exists simply to share my experiences and serve as a voice for those who can’t/won’t share their experiences.
By the way, it’s difficult for me to take anyone seriously who writes to me, but provides bogus contact information. It seems to me that if you were really open-minded you would provide a legitimate email address so that we could have a discussion. Hiding behind a phony email address doesn’t do much for YOUR credibility.
At any rate, I don’t believe you are a professor. I don’t believe you are a professor for several reasons. First of all, I have some sound logical arguments in some of my discussions. These are arguments that a first year philosophy student would understand. Your message is nothing more than an ad hominem fallacy – how’s that for logical argument?
Second, you do the very thing in your message that you accuse me of doing. Your message is a generic “your wrong” message and lacks any specific arguments. How else can I reply to someone who refuses to argue specifics?
Third, I don’t believe you are a professor because what would a random professor from a University in South Carolina with no ties to Baptists or even church be doing at my site caring that my arguments aren’t valid? Kind of far fetched if you ask me.
Finally, your IP address is from a location no where near South Carolina. Granted that could mean that you are out of town, or hiding behind a proxy, or some other legitimate reason why your IP address isn’t in SC, but I think it’s because you are really an IFB supporter, member, pastor or something and just posing as a professor so that you can anonymously attack me and my site.
If you want to point out something wrong with my site feel free, if you dare.
This message is from an anonymous person received on 7/21/09
I am just so excited to be serving the Lord. I am a pastor of a little Independent, Fundamental, King James Only Baptist church. We believe and teach everything that you complain about. I just got back from the bank. The banker gave us a great interest rate as we start to build a new church building. Why am I writing you?…because it all because of you. When I first read your page I was heart broken and so terribly discouraged. Our church was just a few people and your comments hurt. I sat at my desk asking God what to do, and it came to me…show them this website. So I did. We would have new people come in and would want to know all about being ‘Independent Baptist’, so I showed them your page. For some reason, the Lord has used your page. To this date, we have had 16 families join our church after reading your page and have become very dedicated to serving the Lord. Time and time again we see that when the devil tries to destroy or defeat, the Lord always brings glory and honor to himself. I was working two jobs, and the church was on the brink of closing. Thanks to your website, and the people reading how you are and what you think, I am full time at the church and we are seeing growth that only God could bring!!! All within two months!!! Now don’t say I am judgmental, but almost all those joining have said they sense a bitterness and ungodliness about you, that they never want in their life……they said it not me! Again thank you…..keep it up. The Lord truly is good…isn’t he!!!!
I couldn’t reply to this person via email since he provided bogus contact information so my reply is only posted here. This is just weird. I don’t believe this person. It really sounds like a desperate attempt to make me feel guilty. This is a great example of how manipulative the IFB can be. This is a new low for the IFB. I never thought that my site would become a source of manipulation for them. I should have known. I hope this will serve as an example to others and, if what this person says is true, I hope that those who are being manipulated into joining his church will remember my site once the truth is discovered.
By the way, I find it quite ironic that on the same day that I received the email above I got an email fomer a former IFBer. It’s posted here.
This message is from Ken received on 6/28/09
I am a member of a IFB church and love it… my church was without a Pastor for over 2 years. We are a small IFB church. We at our high point ran 60 members and by the time the man we feel God wanted here we where down to 5 voting members we had only 8 people coming to church on Sunday AM and 4 Sunday PM and 4 on wed.night we should have been broke and our doors shut at the begining of Feb. 2009. But God keep us open our new Pastor didn’t get here until the first of June. You HAVE hurt and or defame us and others that would work day in and day out to keep our (their) church open.
You keep saying: “It is not the intention of this site to hurt or defame anyone.” and you also say: “I believe, however, that the IFB operates much like a cult.”
But are you not going against God and his word?
Mt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mt 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mt 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mt 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Lu 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Lu 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
Joh 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
I do not judge you but you judge me and I would like to know the name of your church along with the Pastors name so I could hear his side. I will be honest with you I myself have had some not so good Pastors, But for the most part the Vast majority have been honest good men. You also have to remeber Pastor’s are Sinners like the rest of us YES they make misstakes. I just pray for you and hope you do not have blood on your hands from people who may have found your site and said no to Christ because of it.
Re 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Ken, I removed your comment because it’s inappropriate and unfounded. Although I’m not surprised, you gravely misunderstand the message of this site and are speaking from a judgmental attitude which I will not tolerate.
This is a place where people who have been hurt by the church can come and find solace and comfort. I’ll not have people like you coming here to preach at me with inappropriate and inconsistent use of scripture. If you want to have a discussion let me know and I will set aside a place on this site where you and I can engage in a dialogue.
Please read the site before making judgments. This is not a place where people are turned away from God. It is a place where the damage caused by the IFB is exposed and correction is attempted. If people are turned away from God it’s because the damage done by the IFB is severe enough to be irreversible. It is impossible to have “blood on my hands” as you say because of this site. That’s like saying that the fault of the abuse victim’s death belongs to the doctor. The perpetrator in all abuse is the one at fault, not the victim or the helper. Your manipulation by guilt doesn’t work on me.
I find it ironic, by the way, that you accuse me of turning people away from God yet you openly admit that your church dwindled in size only because it refused to hire a pastor without IFB credentials. I wonder how many people where turned away from God as a result of your church’s legalism and the unattainable standards it has for its Pastor? It’s also ironic that you accuse me of being judgmental yet you’ve judged me and you did so before you even read the site. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me.
I know you didn’t read the site because in the 4th paragraph from the bottom on the very page that you posted this comment on I talk very clearly about Pastors being human and churches being imperfect. Don’t you feel embarrassed now? If not you should. Read the site before making your next comment. It will help you avoid similar mistakes in the future.
Anyway, despite the tone of your message, I thank you for being an example of how the IFB pulls scripture out of context and manipulates it to guilt people with different beliefs into thinking they are wrong. Well done, you have lived up to the standard of IFB practice and abuse. What a wonderful example you provide, so again, thank you.
This message is from Gary received on 6/22/09
I feel sorry that you have come to the conclusions that you have, yet understanding enough to know that s-o-m-e churches (not necessarily IFB) can present the Word of God outside the context of which it was meant. I think it is a personal battle that you should fight and that you should NOT bring this bad experience into a website to spread. The potential to thwart or hinder the Holy Spirit’s work in the heart of a lost boy/girl, man/woman through your website should cause you to stop and re-evaluate immediately.
You say in your writing that you don’t mean to expose specific churches. I say, if you have a complaint about “A” church, comment about that individual church, and only AFTER you prayerfully meet with its Pastor to Biblically discuss your complaint(s). There are hundred and thousands of Godly IFB churches and I’m sure some (a very few) that are not. Think about the harm you bring in the words you print about IFB churches when you speak in generalities.
There is an old saying that says: “If you find a perfect church, don’t join it because it will become inperfect.” The battle you should fight should be in searching God’s Word for its truth in the matters that you dispute (Acts 17:11).
I am curious to know what church you have joined since leaving your former church of 25 years, keeping in mind Heb. 10:25. Please reply.
Similar to so many who write to me, I’m afraid that you have misunderstood the message of this site and jumped to conclusions before fully understanding my point of view. Your arguments are already countered several times throughout this site. If you would take the time to read the site you should have a better understanding of why this site exists.
The entire point of this site is to encourage people to “[search] God’s Word for its truth”, as you ask me to do, rather than blindly following the traditions of a denomination, especially the IFB. I don’t understand how you can deny that what I do isn’t a battle of ”searching God’s Word for truth”?
I feel that fighting this battle personally rather than publically is to miss a great opportunity to warn people of the dangers of the IFB. In my mind, the dangers posed by the IFB provide a far greater hindrance to the work of the Holy Spirit than I, being one person with one website, could ever do. Just read some of the comments posted and you will see for yourself the damage the IFB has caused among God’s people.
This site lends the opposite potential to people than what you claim it lends. This site lends the potential for people to find freedom from the oppressive and legalistic mindset of the manipulative IFB. I only wish that you were able to see that.
I address why I don’t talk about a specific church in the very page that you posted this comment. I also address the issue of ”speaking in generalities” as you accuse me of, many times on this site, including the “Home” page.
Finally, to answer your question, I have never joined another church since leaving my former church. I believe that joining a church is not biblical. I do not find scriptural support for joining churches. If you would like to share where it says in the Bible that Christians are supposed to join churches I would be glad to entertain those arguments.
As already stated on this site, Hebrews 10:25 has nothing to do with joining a church. Hebrews 10:25 is part of a message. Read by itself it’s an incomplete thought. It can’t be pulled out of context and given a different meaning from what the author of Hebrews intended.
Hebrews 10:19-13:25 is about the Christian faith. Jews who had become Christians in the 1st century were tempted to fall back into Judaism because of uncertainty, the security of custom, and persecution. The author of Hebrews is giving a charge to believers of that time to live by faith, which is better than merely fulfilling rituals and customs. It is a challenge to grow and mature in the faith and live in obedience to God. This is best accomplished, ideally, when believers support, encourage and strengthen each other (10:25).
The “meeting together” in this context does not necessarily mean church the way we think of it today. It has a wide range of application from two believers talking and encouraging each other to a modern mega church with thousands of people meeting.
Thanks again for your message and I hope that you will spend some time reading the content of this site before making more judgments about me.
I decline to conduct a back and forth exchange within your site and have said the matter of my heart to you. I continue to believe you are doing more damage with your words than you will admit to. The issue(s) use hold against a specific IFB church that you were a part of for 25 years should be a matter of prayer, not a matter of condemnation. Instead, you have made a campaign of speaking out against the IFB as a whole. That is a shame. In regard to taking your site out of context as you have said, I have not. Your message is all too clear and it screams of hate. Nowhere in it do I see grace proclaimed. I challenge you to put both of my comments back on your home page for all to read and not just the comments of those who agree with you.
I don’t recall inviting you “to conduct a back and forth exchange within [my] site”. In typical IFB fashion you have chosen to judge first and ask questions later, but we all know that the questions will never come because IFBers have been robotically programmed to never question what they have been taught.
Gary, like so many others, has chosen to remain closed minded and hand wave the message of this site. It comes as no surprise to me, however, and I thank Gary for providing more evidence for the dangers of the IFB.
Oh and by the way, Gary if you read this, again I ask that you please read the site before jumping to conclusions. If you had read the site prior to judging me you would have at least learned that my experience is not with only one IFB church, as you assume, but many.
This message is from Gene received on 6/19/09
Are you trying to just get into a shouting match? What you tell me and others of your readers is that you do not know much about the version of the bible you are condemning. I know of one of the translators of the NIV who worked on the Board of The World Council of Churches and the National Council of The Churches of Christ, with them having him and other translators to translate documents into the NIV so they could have a more user friendly bible. They wanted one that would not offend anyone adn would give liberal looseness to special interest groups: within this was the giving of freedom for such groups to have looseness to be members of churches and to gain freedom in many other ways. The translator I know of has been a teacher of mine in the past and has a doctorate in religion. This person publicly tells that the NIV has many errors which could not be prevented with using the language the governing boards insisted to be used.
So, when you come down so heavily on another bible version, you should make sure it is really bad before you do. Your NIV is not as good as some of the other versions.
I do not know this man who I am going to tell you about, but at least he makes more sense than you do. Incidentally, the KJV is not so hard to understand if you want to understand it. All you are telling me is that you have been hurt somehow, and you feel you have to take out your hurt on something or someone. What you are doing is taking it out on Christ. And, to, who are you to be such an authority on a bible so that you know that the KJV is all wrong and is a heresy? This is what you are telling your reading audience.
Now, for the information I am going to send you about bible versions and good information about them:
Why So Many Bible Translations?
By Dr. Dale A. Robbins (article removed by Admin)
Gene gave a bogus email address so my reply to him was rejected. Hopefully he will stop by this section to read my reply. It doesn’t appear that Gene has read the “KJV Only Deception” page of this site. If he had he would realize that 1. don’t read the NIV anymore as he asserts, and 2. the article he is trying to educate me about is an article that I’ve already read and is clearly linked to on the “KJV Only Deception” page.
I’m not going to spend time defending myself against the false accusations and assumptions that this message asserts. I will ask, however, that Gene please offer something more substantial than a generic “your wrong” type of message. Please pick something that you disagree with an offer a sound logical argument with evidence to support your position. Your argument of knowing a guy who helped translate the NIV is nothing more than hearsay to me. Do you have a name? Do you have contact information so I can substantiate your claims?
Ultimately the type of judgmental attitude towards me that this message brings is a good example of the mindset of the IFB. All I ask that Gene take some time to read the site and at least try to understand my point of view before judging me so harshly.
This message is from an anonymous sender received on 6/2/09
It’s funny how you think the ifb’s are so narrow about what they teach and believe, but your really no different in your own right. You’re narrow and closed minded due to one experience you had with one independent fundimental baptist church. It’s like saying you hate the whole human race because of one bad experience with one person. I’ve also noticed that the little bit that I’ve read you don’t really give any concrete evidence of your own view. All you’re doing is complaining. I would suggest you get in the Word of God yourself and read verse like great peace have they that love thy law and nothing shall offend them. If you need my pastor to call you and explain that verse I’ll be happy to give him your number. That is if you want to disclose that info.
I didn’t reply to this person simply because she admitted that she didn’t read the site. I refuse to spend what little time I have available replying to people who just want to complain about my site without even reading it. I wanted to post this message, however, as a demonstration of the judgmental and arrogant attitude of the IFB. This person openly admits that she didn’t even read the site yet she is making blind assumptions, accusations and judgments based only on her brainwashing from the IFB. Pretty silly, also, how this person throws an out of context Bible verse at me just like the IFB does. I thank this person for illustrating why I have this site up and for serving as an example of the IFB indoctrination.
This message is from an anonymous sender received on 1/21/09
I just wanted to say that I am an Independent Baptist, and glad that I am. You keep saying over and over again that some Independent Baptist churchs aren’t all that bad, but yet you have created a website bad mouthing them all??? Also I read that you don’t attend church anywhere, only attending a Bible study in homes? The KJV, and all the other ‘Versions’ say very clearly about the importance of the New Testament Church…. infact Christ started it. We can take that part out and ignore it….if that makes you right. Hey, I will be praying for you. Again, the church you attended, as well as a few others (not only Baptist) might be hurting folks, but several thousands of IFB Churchs are seeing souls saved weekly….mine is. The Bible also talks about bitterness….I will be praying for you as well about that! All real happiness comes from serving (which means reading your bible, praying, and attending church faithfully, telling others about Christ Saving Power), loving, and living for God! I pray that YOU find the peace that I have….before it’s too late!
**Note: This person was too cowardly to include a name or an email address so my response is only posted here.
There are a lot of errors in your message so I will try and tackle them one at a time.
First of all, I never said that “some Independent Baptist churchs [sic] aren’t all that bad”. Please don’t put words in my mouth. You’ve taken that out of context and misquoted me. What I actually said was ”Now, I am not implying that every Independent Fundamental Baptist Denomination church is run in a spiritually abusive manner.” and I made it clear that ”I can really only speak from my experiences so that is why this site is singling out the Independent Fundamental Baptist Denomination. Much of what you will read here comes directly from my personal experience. Much of the information contained within this site can be generalized to other churches, but not all of it. I will let you, the reader, determine which applies to you and your unique situation.”. In stead of asking for clarification of something you clearly don’t understand you’ve gone on the attack and closed your mind to the information on the site. I know that I’m not the most articulate person in the world so I would ask that if you would like clarification on something I’ve written please ask before judging me.
Second, in reference to me not attending church, I told a person who sent me an email much like yourself (see below) that I don’t CURRENTLY attend church and that I’m CURRENTLY attending a home Bible study. That was a year and a half ago. Why would you make the assumption that I’m still not attending church? Even if I weren’t attending church so what? As far as I know, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, it’s not a sin to not attend church. By the way, the references to “the church” in the New Testament are references to the Body of Believers not a church building like the way we meet here in the 21st century. I’m afraid that you’ve been misinformed.
Third, if churches are hurting people, as you readily admit that they may be, then they should stop and be held accountable. Just because people are getting saved in IFB churches doesn’t justify their hurting people in the process. As I’ve already stated on the site, which you would have read had you taken the time to fully understand what I’m saying, “Is this site saying that nothing good ever happens at an Independent Fundamental Baptist Denomination church or that people cannot come to know the Lord there and be saved or that they have a monopoly on spiritual abuse or doctrine that is in error? Absolutely not.”
Let me remind you that it is not the church you are attending that saves people. It is God and God alone. Do not give the IFB the praise and glory that belongs only to God. The people who are being saved at your church are being saved because of God NOT because of your church. You proclaim good things that are being done in you church group, but this good does not dismiss or excuse the bad that happens. It is wrong – and dangerous – to ignore abuses simply because good may also be found.
Finally, You have no right to judge me as being bitter. You don’t know me and you have no idea what I’ve been through. The tone of your message is very judgemental and one of the very things that I find so repulsive about the IFB. Please stop making assumptions and try to learn more about me and my experiences. Only then can we have a healthy understanding of each other. Please don’t waste your time praying for me. I’ve found the truth that I hope one day you will find as well. Just because I don’t serve Christ the way YOU think I should doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
This message is from an anonymous sender received on 12/29/08
I’ve have been part of a baptist church for almost 24 years, and you apparantly are the kind of church goer that sits in the back and is not active and doesn’t learn what the doctrines that we believe are and why we believe them. I have read through your page and have laughed and laughed, and have forwarded to some other pastor friends of mine and they have had a good chuckle! At first I was mad thinking that you were making us IFB’s look bad, but after reading your articles, all you are doing it making yourselve look like a fool! I will be back to look and have a laugh ever now and then. Sorry to hear that you were ‘spiritually abused’…haha! My parents were IFB’s, I was raised that way, and my children that way, and by the grace of God, my grandchildren! Keep up the good work of making IFB’s all across the nation laugh when they view your page! What a wonderful God we serve…..you should really try it!
**Note: This person was too cowardly to include a name or an email address so my response is only posted here.
The very first sentence of this email is a judgmental statement. Instead of asking me about my experience this person makes a judgment about me and then accepts that judgment as fact. The entire tone of this message is very judgmental and one of the very things that I find so repulsive about the IFB. I challenge this person to stop making assumptions and try to learn more about me and my experiences. Only then can we have a healthy understanding of each other.
I am only writing about my experience in the IFB church. I’ve stated that very clearly on the home page along with my involvement in the IFB church and school I went to. Had this person actually read the site prior to berating me he/she might have understood the immersion I had in the IFB doctrine. A person’s experience is neither right or wrong, but simply their experience. The fact that this person is scolding me for an experience I had lends testimony to the IFB’s skewed way of thinking. I am not the one making the IFB look bad. The IFB and it’s followers do a good enough job of that on their own. Again, I am only writing about what I’ve experienced.
Making fun of someone who has been the victim of any type of abuse is not only cruel, but also a good example of the attitude I have tried so hard to flee from. I hope that this person does come back and read often. Perhaps the message of this site will one day sink in and he/she will find the freedoms I now enjoy. The God I serve is VERY different from the God that the IFB serves. I hope that this person will figure that out before it’s too late.
This message is from an anonymous sender received on 11/18/08
Even though youre right about blabtistism-you have not included any biblical premise for your notions- EVEN they are smarter than that???
We use many scripture references in our writtings. Perhaps you should actually read what is written before you make judgement.
**Note: This Person did not write back
This message is from Matt received on 6/7/08
Dear Sir I am a member of an idependent baptist church and have been for many years. I believe you are a sincere person for you wouldn’t spend so much time and effort on creating such a web site. However you premise’s as a whole are wrong. You have to remember we are not here to please man but God. So as not to make a long drawn out e-mail I will give but one example. God is the author of the Bible. Satan is the author and father of all lies. The Bible gives us an understanding of what God want. It tells us how to go to heaven. I believe God gives us his plan and his way in the KJB. I believe satan confuse’s Gods plan in other versions. To say that satan wouldn’t do such a thing is niave. God’s plan is simple and he is not the author of confusion. Satan is and these other versions confuse. I believe as do others that someone can use another version and be saved however the truth has got to have come from the source which is God. John chapter one. And we english speaking people get the inerrant truth from the kjb. By the way saying nothing good can come from an independent baptist church is not true. You didn’t waste 25 years of your life. Jesus and his disciple’s didn’t waste their lives even when they had a bad apple in the midst of them. I pray from my heart for you for I think your generalization as a whole of the idependent baptist movement is false. We all are just sinners saved by the blood of Jesus. Thank You Matt
Thanks for your interest in my site and for your message. I appreciate you taking the time to defend your beliefs, however, you have not said anything that I haven’t heard a thousand times before. I am currently working on a page that will address the KJV belief errors of the IFB churches. To be honest, it’s difficult for me to take people who are trying to have a philosophical discussion about these issues seriously when they write with such bad grammar, spelling and punctuation, but I will try to answer you as completely as I can.
Dear Sir I am a member of an idependent baptist church and have been for many years. I believe you are a sincere person for you wouldn’t spend so much time and effort on creating such a web site. However you premise’s as a whole are wrong.
Definitive statements are usually a sign of a closed mind. That is your OPINION based on your belief. My premises are neither right or wrong, they are simply my premises, my opinions.
You have to remember we are not here to please man but God.
Then why do you work so hard to follow man made traditions, rules, regulations and standards?
So as not to make a long drawn out e-mail I will give but one example. God is the author of the Bible. Satan is the author and father of all lies. The Bible gives us an understanding of what God want. It tells us how to go to heaven. I believe God gives us his plan and his way in the KJB. I believe satan confuse’s Gods plan in other versions. To say that satan wouldn’t do such a thing is niave.
You are under the misconception that the “KJB” is the inerrant Word of God. It is NOT. The “KJB” is simply a VERSION of other bibles. I would encourage you to research the history of the KJV.
God’s plan is simple and he is not the author of confusion. Satan is and these other versions confuse. I believe as do others that someone can use another version and be saved however the truth has got to have come from the source which is God. John chapter one.
I find it interesting then that I am less confused when reading versions other than the KJV. Truth is truth. Just because the truth comes from the NASB instead of the KJV doesn’t mean it is less truthful. But, this is a good example of how the KJV is in error. The verse you are referring to is I Corinthians 14:33 “for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints” (KJV). The KJV incorrectly translates the Greek word akatastasiaiv as ‘confusion’ when the proper translation should be ‘disorder’. It’s interesting to note that the NIV, NLT, NRSV, among others, translate that word correctly. This verse alone is an incomplete thought. If you read that verse in context you will find that Paul is talking about order in the church. It has nothing to do with people being confused by Satan.
The IFB has a tendency to elevate the KJV as a 4th member of the Trinity. There is nothing special about the KJV. It is simply a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation. It’s NOT the King James BIBLE, it’s the King James VERSION of the Bible, unless of course there is another King James Bible out there that I don’t know about.
And we english speaking people get the inerrant truth from the kjb.
No, we get inerrant truth from God and the Holy Spirit. The KJV is simply a translation of translations. Since it was translated by humans it contains errors.
By the way saying nothing good can come from an independent baptist church is not true.
I never said that and I don’t believe that. But since you brought it up, any good that comes from the IFB is so severely tainted with errors and abuse that the good is of no consequence anyway.
You didn’t waste 25 years of your life.
I never said that I did and I don’t believe that it was a waste.
Jesus and his disciple’s didn’t waste their lives even when they had a bad apple in the midst of them.
I never said that they did.
I pray from my heart for you for I think your generalization as a whole of the idependent baptist movement is false.
Your opinion. Don’t worry about praying for me. I have escaped the abusive doctrinal errors of this cult like denomination. My hope is that one day you too will experience the joy of a relationship with Christ free from the bonds of the rules, regulations, standards and plain legalism of the IFB church.
We all are just sinners saved by the blood of Jesus.
No argument there 🙂 I will give you a challenge though since you used the KJV as an example. If you can show me using scripture that the KJV is the TRUE Bible for Christians today and that it is the inerrant, true Word of God, not simply a translation, I will take down the website and write an apology in it’s place.
Thanks again for taking the time to write.
**Note: Matt did not write back
This message is from Kent received on 5/30/08
saved?just when is a person saved from sin’s past, prsent, future sin’s or past, prsent, but the sin payment is not made yet?but paid on a daily walk if that’s what your saying then Jesus has not paid it all yet or you will have to. 1stjohn 1:9 is not a salvation vs.but for the beliver to have unbroken fellow ship.
I don’t understand your question. Will you please try re-wording it and tell me what part of the site you are referencing? Thanks.
In regards to 1 John 1:9, if you read it in the context of the entire chapter you will see that it is talking about Salvation. Verse 7 states: “…and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin.” (emphasis mine). It doesn’t say “…and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from only certain sin.” A person enters “the light” when they are saved. Salvation covers you with the Blood, allowing fellowship with God. The requirement for salvation is NOT perfection. We will still sin after we have become saved, however, the good news is that sin is also covered by the Blood of Christ. God knows we are not perfect. The requirement for “walking in the light” is salvation NOT perfection. Once a person is saved, nothing can break the fellowship we have with God. A basic knowledge of God’s grace (and a little bit of logic) will tell you that a person doesn’t lose fellowship with God every time they sin. If that were the case then no one would ever have fellowship with God. We are constently sining. It’s impossible to not sin, that is why we need the Blood of Christ to cover our sins and make it possible for us to have fellowship with God.
This is a HUGE error in the teachings of the IFB churches.
By the way… if you think about it, ALL of our sins are future sins since
they occure AFTER the cross.
Thanks for your message.
**Note: Kent did not write back
This message is from Paul received on 12/29/07
I am sorry that you have been so hurt but your are wrong as a whole about all those who call themselves IFB. Your method of interpretation is a poor use of Hermenutics and your pain is very clear in your writing. Those that have hurt you remain under the sovereignty of God. But this kind of retoric does nothing but divide regardless of what side your on. By the way I have also read Max’s book and enjoyed it but even he would not approve of this kind of attack. I will pray that with an understanding of Grace, God will also give you an understanding of forgiveness.
Thanks for your message and your interest in my site. If you wish to have a healthy discussion about what you find wrong with my site please site examples instead of making blind accusations. If you wish to remain closed minded and simply defend what you believe is right then please don’t write again. If, however, you desire to converse with me so that we may better understand each other’s point of view then you are welcome to address specific concerns and I will try my best to explain my position. The tone of your message is very judgemental and one of the very things that I find so repulsive about the IFB and Christianity. Please stop making assumptions and try to learn more about me and my experiences. Only then can we have a healthy understanding of each other.
**Note: Paul did not write back
This message is from Linda received on 11/7/07:
HI. I am so sorry you had such a bad experience with the FIBC. I wanted you to know, that these things that happened, are not in every FIBC. There are many many good churches that don’t have so many crazy rules like you wrote about. I don’t understand why you don’t tell your readers that some IFBC churches are not good. You are talking about the entire denomination which is a little unfair. That is lumping all of the good and bad into one bad. I wish you would be more specific on this. I can name ALOT of churches that don’t follow the very strict rules on what you have been through. There are plenty of churches in all demonimations that have cult like tendiecies, but to name the whole denomination is not wise. It is very possible there are good sound biblical churches within these denominations. I sure wish you would separate them.
Thanks for your email. You may want to re-read the first page of my site where I state exactly what you claim I don’t say.
Someone once told me don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. But the problem is that when it comes to church it’s too difficult to tell where the bath water ends and the baby begins. It only takes one bad church to taint all the other ones. It’s next to impossible to separate the good ones from the bad ones especially to an outside observer.
In my opinion if a church takes the title Independent Fundamental Baptist then its impossible for it to be a “good sound biblical church”. The very title negates the possibility. If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck it’s probably a duck.
Thanks again for your message and I hope that one day your eyes will be opened.
This message is from Jon received on 6/28/07:
Hello,came across your website and after reading the intro, I thought it best to respond. You state that IFBers believe that one cannot be saved except through a KJV bible. If you were really in the IFB movement for that long, you would know that that generalization is not true. It is false. There are some circles that believe that, but not all. By the way, what church do you attend at present?
Thanks for taking the time to send a message. I enjoy hearing from my website visitors.
If you read the site carefully, especially the “Home” page, you will find that I am careful to communicate that I am speaking from my experience. I actually state on that page: “I am not implying that every IFBD church is run in a spiritually abusive manner.” I also state that “Much of what you will read here comes directly from my personal experience. Much of the information contained within this site can be generalized to other churches, but not all of it. I will let you, the reader, determine which applies to you and your unique situation.”
I understand what you are saying though, that my wording of that paragraph could be mistaken for an unfair generalization. I will take into consideration rewording that sentence so that it’s more clear that I’m not making a generalization.
I don’t currently attend a church or participate in a specific denomination. I’m part of a home bible study group.