Testimonials

I was married to a man that was planning to be an Independent Baptist Preacher. We went to a known Independent Baptist College to prepare for our future in the Pastorate. Our family grew and we have five beautiful children whom I stay home with. I teach school and take care of our home. We dressed the part, very modest, my girls did not even wear culottes it was long dresses and skirts. We didn't swim or go anywhere that people would be wearing less than what was acceptable. We served the church by being Sunday School teachers, nursery workers etc...We had family devotions, no TV, hymns were the only music in our home. My husband was very strict. I knew nothing of the bills, finances, or insurance. Shortly after college he accepted a position as a chaplain in a homeless mission. The children and I loved it there. We all felt like we were right where the Lord intended, until I became pregnant and had an ectopic pregnancy. We lost the baby and almost lost me. We had no insurance or savings so we had to do something. My husband decided he could go in the military, maybe pursue being a chaplain and when his time was up we could use the retirement and benefits to help us as we pastor a church. Great plans, but my husband had secrets. Military life was tough and he was away a lot giving him opportunities to live any life her chose. We were assigned to a post and immediately searched for a church that we could serve in and he was given the opportunity to serve but to preach on occasion as well. The Pastor had thought that we were the family that would someday take his place. His first deployment was five days after our fifth child was born. I was homeschooling two children and trying to keep the fort all together by myself. I had faith, prayed everyday for his safety and return. He returned withing seven months of what was suppose to be a year deployment,praise! During our times apart we wrote each other daily I clung to my phone and never wanted to leave the house from fear of missing a call. I thought our family had it all right! He returned, changed MOS's and was off to training three months after his return. We kept in touch but something was different. After his return from training he announced he had to go to Korea for a year. We were to follow a few months after his departure, but he had so many excuses and wouldn't get me information I needed to get for us to get the ball moving so we could be together. He wasn't in church and wasn't acting like he cared. His communication was next to non existent. He came home unexpectedly after three months in Korea, to announce he wasn't happy and wanted a divorce. Then he boarded a plane and went back to Korea. I pleaded, begged, cried, prayed, I even asked a few men in the church to contact him. No one confronted him about what was going on. After a year in Korea and playing with my emotions telling me he wanted to work things out but didn't I finally came to the realization that something else had to be the cause for his unhappiness. I began checking websites...Facebook I finally found pictures of him and a Korean national woman together. I knew then where his happiness lied. I asked some men in the church again to confront him about his sin, but no one did. A lady in the church actually had the nerve to tell me that I must have done something wrong after I stayed in church and had not changed anything. He divorced me and married the Korean and brought her home with him. The church still has the sermons he preached on their website. No one ever confronted him and I had to not only pick up the pieces for myself but five other lives that was crushed. The church failed my family. His sin was never brought up. I can't look at a preacher without thinking about what his sin is that we don't know about. My children don't trust people either. I have since found out that their was more to him and his sinful ways. I have had to learn to forgive in ways that the church would never understand and because he handled everything I had to learn on my own and we lived by full faith and trust that the Lord would provide. I still home school and stay home so I am pleased. I don't trust the church and probably never will.

My husband and I have been in the independent fundamental baptist church since 1991. I was raised charismatic. He got saved 2 months before I met him. I was attracted to the fact that there was an absolute answer. My first IFB pastor was a strong, charismatic, funny person that everyone wanted to please. Like I said, I was attracted to that. I was 20 years old and searching for answers. Thankfully, my mom taught me one very important principle- God is always right, man can be wrong. And yes, this was from a Charismatic Christian.

Our first pastor ended up falling big time. He was involved in immoral behaviour for years. Manipulating women sexually. Stealing money. He finally got caught. Interestingly, it was after he sent nasty letters to us bad members who were either not tithing a full 10% or not tithing at all. We tithed about 5%, but I wondered how he knew it wasn’t 10%? Well, I felt so guilty, and so horrible. We made sure we tithed the full 10% after that! But, 3 short months later, God brought the hammer of justice down and he had to go to prison.

Our next church was a sending church from that one. Actually, they changed to a non-denominational church after about 5 years. We were burned, however, because my husband was not allowed to step-down as a worship “pastor.” We did not like having the “pastor” title. It wasn’t us. Originally, he was just helping with the music. Soon, he was attending the church’s school and was ordained, and I hated it. He would not let us step down….until a better, more cool guy came in- then he decided God didn’t want him to do that anymore. I was glad he didn’t have to anymore, but I realized they cared more about their church than their people. We were having financial problems, marraige problems, child problems and felt like hypocrites when reminded of the “leadership character traits” required in the Bible. Those weren’t good reasons to step down. Not being “cool” enough was a good reason. At this point, however, they were no longer IFB- they were not Rick Warrenites.

Then, accidentally, we happened upon a REALLY IFB church. Women in dresses and coulottes, music standards, you name it. I just wanted to fit in somewhere, and the rules seemed safe. I could see their points, but couldn’t be completely convinced. We went here for 7 years. I started questioning things and secretly considering differen ways of doing things…but then major family problems began! I thought it was my sinful fault. I considered disobeying them, and God was judging me. So, I was back to making sure I was in my place all 3 services, tithing my full 10%, taking my child back out of the evil Christian school and even having the pastor’s wife homeschool him because I couldn’t handle it- too much rebellion, etc. After a year of that, our relationships became better, and we questioned things together.

We didn’t like seeing how one family alienated their son. This family was the “effective, successful family.” However, I was not fooled. I heard their children talk. They followed all the rules, wore the suit and tie, sat straight, tall and quiet in church, sang in the choir, played the piano and their instruments- classical and hymns only. But, one freaked just before he left. They did those things because they would get spanked if they didn’t. None of it was in their hearts.

So, we reevaluated those things. We gave our son an iPod. We allowed CCM. We didn’t like the CCM he liked, but we didn’t have a SOLID Biblical reason. We say, it’s not our favorite, but we aren’t banning it. His old music about rape and murder, we have a solid Biblical answer for- so that is “No.” What kid wants an iPod with classical music? We put him back in Christian school- back with the “bad” influences. Even though the “good” family’s 2 sons were the ones who introduced our son to not just music, but music about rape and murder. Who introduced our son to R-rated movies.

We were treated like those bad people who “lowered their standards.” We wavered because our kid didn’t like the rules. We didn’t “stick to our guns.” We questioned God, and have turned our backs on His ways. We even sat through sermons we knew were directed towards us. (It is a small church.) If the pastor sees things he doesn’t like, he topically preaches on it Sunday nights, and everyone usually knows who it is for! Mostly, it is a manipulative way to make people afraid of questioning his judgment.

It will always be a small church. People who end up their who do not know Jesus Christ leave. Their tight pants are criticized, and they can’t listen to their music. If they are exercise instructors, they no longer have a job God can use because of dress and music! I could go on. I see people who do not know Jesus Christ leave, and I see other fundamentals come in. Their last pastor did something bad, so they find another fundamental pastor. Those are the people who attend.

Birth control is bad. Delivering babies and using medication is bad. The only way to raise children is on a strict schedule. If you don’t schedule your children, you are outside of God’s will. God is a God of order, and you have failed. You have to go to all services. If something bad happens it is either sin, unfaithful to church services or you are not tithing. You can not dance. You can not clap. Ever. If music makes you move more than your big toe or little fingers, it is sensual…you are sensual.

My husband is an excellent jazz musician. He has not played his horn in years. They only want a certain kind of music. But, you can’t find the music to play anywhere, so all an accomplished musician can do is play boring music out of a hymnal. Why play at all!

We left, my husband is playing his saxophone all the time. My son has picked up the guitar. His is a GIFTED musician who quit playing the piano because he didn’t want to be forced to play classical music and hymns only. There is music in my home again. Sunday I heard that God loves me regardless of my performance. I left getting a glimpse of the fact that I am accepted instead of being this wavering, inneffective, no- good parent! My son laughs with us- when 2 years ago he was punching holes in the wall and cursing at us!

He still wanted to go to camp with them. I sure wouldn’t have wanted to. They were going to “pray” about it. He had to interview with the pastor so they could get his heart on the issue. Forget it!

We were expected to keep our children 3 years and above in a LONG adult service. LONG! If they didn’t behave, they were to be spanked. We used to do that with our 2nd born. That was inneffective and wore us out. We started to with our 3rd born. How stupid. That makes them hate church. We quit spanking them for that. That was not sinful behaviour! They were bored out of their minds. So was I! So, we just quit going in the evenings when they were too tired to sit for 2+ hours and listen to things they didn’t understand.

I’m thankful for my mom’s upbringing. I learned that relationships come first. God is not a duty- He is a “get too.” I was also taught that the Bible is always right, people can be wrong. If it weren’t for her, I probably would have shyed away from the Bible altogether, too. Hopefully my son won’t.

Well, that’s my long story.

Hi Steve
Not certain on how to start this: I was brought up as a semi Catholic, religion who h I have such an aversion for today since quite a few years now. At the age of 16, whilst going to my Sunday catechism class, on my way there just after having crossed a street, I was suddenly blinded by su h an intense light (no this not in reference to Paul's experience. As I mentioned, it was so intense that I had the sudden reflex of saying " lord pls diminish the intensety, I can't support it". I actually said this in french. From there on, I have had many more visions and 4.visitations. No not thoses absurd Catholic virgin Mary visitations or visions of her or whatever nonsense. I mention this for the simple reason.that from my understanding of the Baptists, they don't believe this kind of stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Later on, I found myself in some carismatic churches and wow that was weird because even if all that happened to me, I never spoke in tongues, though one time a couple did pray on.me for that. I could not believe it thought for athletes that time in my life God himself was teaching me through his word by the Holy Spirit. So I was receiving all sorts of biblical revelations from God diectly. I did attend a Baptist Church once but wasn't inspired to stay there.

Well anyway, all this to come to the conclusion that my last evangelical assembly attended the angel of the Lord (speaking to me in spiritual language) appeared in fron of the assembly walking from its left to right and then was gone. It was my coming out of her(church) time. Amazing and amazing again for all those years of God manifestations and teachings live in the Holy Spirit. My last vision was at a bus stop. From the visible heaven, came down a arm and fist and as it did, it mightily hit the ground with impressive strength. As it did, the whole earth trembled from his mighty blow. The wrath of God is to come, when I don't know except it be soon though this las vision was in 2007.

The reason why I'm telling you all this? Maybe I just feel I have to since I have but rarely mentionned it. However as an update on my life today is that after all that Godly presence and last vision I knew God had sent me back into the world. I''ve been lonely since this world hates God and now Him calling me back , thought I'd go to a church to assemble and more precisely be entertained but more that I'd like to have some Christian friends. All this started more intenselyvafter watching Gene Kim on YouTube. So to end my testimony, I was looking for an IFB assembly near me and stumbled upon your site. Hmmm! Why the subject is THANKS ? Well I give praise to the Lord Yeshua Christ because I trully believe this comes complete him that reading your testimony and others made me realize that I had not truly waited on my Lord's answer as to going to such a church. So I presume this stumbling on your site was the answer I needed. Well I give you thanks also Steve. I know now that if God showed me out and not in is because he wants me out of her. I will add to this, however as much as I would enjoy having the Holy Ghost send me visions again and the visitations of Christ come back. It not be his will I suppose and most probably it be selfish on my part. Yes it was an awesome life experience that served God's purpose in entertaining me at that time. I love him for it though I still feel lonely at this time in life. What's most amazing though is that even though all those are not present,He Christ is and his calling me back to him scary and wonderful simultaneously. It hurts because back in the world, I gave up quite a bit on him which saddens me so deeply. But knowing his love and forgiveness, wow him assisting me in coming back washing me in the blood as I'm cleasing my flesh again, its just wonderful. Oh btw. Even though I had thoses visitations of Christ I never saw his facial features which no one can see in the flesh I do believe.

Well thank you brother for being an inspiration and keep up the good work on putting out in the light what is hidden in the darkness concerning your experiences. Also remember, it's not always easy and many will come against you but dont bother with them fleshy ones because it's by many trials and trebulations that we(Christians) must enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Keep up the faith brother Steve. Love in the Lord Jesus Christ and thanks.
RUI

Hello there,

Last year I was "courting" a girl who is IFB. I grew up in a variety of denominations including generic Baptist, Messianic Judaism (Christians who follow Jewish tradition), Catholicism (I thank the Lord I am free of that church) and many other non-denominational churches. I currently attend a Christian Missionary Alliance church. I had never attended IFB before I met my ex-girlfriend (let's call her C). She was 22 going on 23, I was 25. She lived over 530 miles away from me. I would go out to visit her and her family about once every month or month and a half.

At first, they seemed like normal people with a sincere desire to serve God and live out the Scriptures whole heartedly. Maybe a little on the strict side, but normal. To give you some background, I went through a stage of life where I walked away from God, partied and participated in activities of which I am not proud. By some miracle, I retained my virginity though. I realized the foolishness of what I was doing and was coming back to God when I met C. The IFB at first appealed to me. I thought they would help me return become the person I used to be before.

Well, C and I became really close. It was after her father gave us permission to court that I began to see the true side of what the IFB church is all about. It seemed like no matter what I did, it was never good enough or Christian enough. C was always expecting more out of me. It was like she and her family were never satisfied. At first, I buckled down and pressed onward, thinking it was going to get better. It didn't. It got worse. I did a lot during our courtship. I read my Bible everyday, conducted Bible studies with Marie and her father, I read and studied every single book her father told us to, I quit chewing tobacco (the hardest thing I have ever done) at her request, I bought groceries for her family (they were poor and I made a pretty decent income) on several occasions and I always included her siblings on any activities C and I did together. It was never enough. She always questioned how serious I was, whether my relationship with God was for real, if I was going to make a good husband and father, etc. I found myself in an endless world of frustration and it was beginning to show after a few months. At her church, I never really felt loved or accepted, except by her pastor and his family. Strangely, they seemed to be the most normal of everybody there. Everybody else, it felt like they were looking down their noses at me and had their heads in the clouds.

Well, after about four months of courtship, things blew up in my face. I hadn't quite told her all of my past sin (I had visited a few strip clubs as a young man and kissed a girl long before I knew who she was). I came out and told her the rest of it when I was comfortable because I wanted to be open with her. I was seen as a complete liar for it. Her father gave me a chance to redeem myself. He made me write him and her a couple of letters explaining myself: why I didn't tell them everything at first, how most people respond when trust is broken and what I felt God wanted me to do to restore the trust that had been broken. He wanted me to do this after time in prayer, reading the Bible and seeking the counsel of other Godly men I trusted. Because I loved C so much and wanted things to work out more than anything, I did as he asked. He rejected my first letter because he felt it didn't answer his questions, he thought I wrote and submitted it "too soon," and he thought I was looking for a "quick fix" to the problem. So, I took my time, wrote another far more descriptive letter and did not submit until the due date he had given me. This letter was 10 times better than the first. He was not impressed. He labeled it "acceptable," but nothing more.

I visited them about a week and a half later. That Sunday, everything seemed to be going better. We weren't exactly restored to where we were before, but we seemed to be on the mend. I picked her up for church. She had dressed to match the way I was dressed, so I thought, "Okay, we can do this, our relationship is healing." After church, she broke up with me in the church parking lot. It was like I had been run over by a truck. We had agreed to meet up with her brother and sister in law, our "accountability partners." She said we didn't need to, but I decided we should since I had given my word that we would meet and I was too much in a state of shock to really think straight. The breakup continued with them. The two of them actually had the gall to question whether or not I am saved.

It's been almost a year since all of this took place. I realize now that I was truly blessed by God that things did not work out. Being married into that would have been a nightmare. I would have been constantly having to prove myself to everybody. I could not see that at the time because my feelings blinded me. I happily attend church at the Christian Missionary Alliance church. What I have seen there is way less hypocrisy and far more love: love for God and our fellow human beings. The pastor delivers his message, encourages us to think on it and pray on it and then lets us determine what we believe while being available to talk to us if we desire that.

It was in the time afterward that I really began to see things and that church for the way they are. I hold no hard feelings against them, though I could never be talked into going back to that church or pursuing a girl through "courtship" ever again. I am hoping that God brings a young lady into my life who loves Him and loves me, but at the same is accepting, understanding and "normal."

Sorry this story is so long, but does any of what I mentioned here sound familiar to anybody?

Saved by Grace….BUT… I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… my infant baptism & confirming of my belief as an early teen wasn’t good enough…I’d have to be “immersed” to really please God… I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… after being fully immersed in baptism by a christian preacher, that wasn’t good enough either, it wasn’t “valid”….. I needed to be baptised yet again, by one of *their* properly ordained preachers…( I listened to tapes from a tape ministry of that “church” that I got in college. I drove to another state to be baptised!! hard to believe, but it’s true)

I was told I was saved by grace….BUT… since being baptised by *the properly ordained preacher*, I was now a member of *their church* = the *true church*, which had the true faith & practice. Evidentally, no other churches did???? I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… to not go to any other churches…just listen to the sermon tapes & get in for “church” as much as possible. I was living in one state & my LOCAL church was in ANOTHER STATE????? How was that church MY local church?

I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… since there were no *true churches* in the state I lived…..to be pleasing to God it may be that I needed to “forsake lands & family for the kingdom = their local church….” In the bible, I only read where the Ethiopian eunuch went his way rejoicing, I never read anywhere where he was told…”well, if a true church doesn’t pan out back in Ethiopia, you need to consider moving your life…guilt trip…guilt trip…guilt trip….” Anyhow, isn’t the church a spiritual house??? Doesn’t Christ built it?

I was told I was saved by grace…BUT…. that if we weren’t concerned about relocating for the *true church*…that “we probably didn’t love the church enough to even be members” …quite a judgmental remark, I wonder if that preacher says the same things to his “non-resident” members today as he did to us back then? Lots of pressure was put on us to move our lives to be in the “perfect will of God”.

I was told I was saved by grace…BUT….God wanted me closer to the *true church*…& us moving our lives 2 states from the only home we’d ever known, “would make life easier for *pastor*” ( he said that on more than 1 occasion!!)…what about the burden put on us? I guess making our lives easier didn’t matter to him…? I was told I was saved by grace…BUT…. God may expect you to walk away from a career, a loving family & friends….didn’t I love God enough to make these sacrifices for HIM?? Yet, I thought that all God requires is “to do justly, love mercy & walk humbly w/ thy God”?? Micah 6:8 LOVE is the greatest commandment & Jesus fulfilled the law…so why was the LAW put back on me by this “Sovereign Grace” preacher???? Calvinism is NOT the TRUTH….so if a person loves Jesus & his fellow man, they are following the TRUTH.

Also, DOCTRINE is SECOND to the FRUITS, WORKS & EXAMPLES. Sorry, but being a good *preacher* & yelling & screaming & ranting & being persuasive with mans’ wisdom & speeches & putting fear into people, & manipulating & all of the logic in the world…this is not what Jesus is about. This is not the truth. **I informed pastor that I considered Arminian christians brothers & sisters in Christ (the group we were in is Calvinistic)….the pastor glared at me & told me “so….you have changed…” You bet I had!! I no longer believed in this “prove yourself & we’re doing church better than everyone else..” religion, that claimed salvation by grace! It was hypocrisy & selfrighteousness to the core.

I was told I was saved by grace…BUT…. there were no other churches to go to except *their* churches (the few that there are). Those others false churches, didn’t use the right bible version, celebrated those pagan holidays, didn’t baptise properly, didn’t wash feet, used musical instruments, weren’t from the true lineage & were not pleasing to God in many other ways including being “lukewarm” in addition to other reasons…… OK…..wow…you just limited in my mind any other group except yours. Gee don’t abusers do that???…”you can’t go to anyone else???..you can’t make it without me…” In sermons it was implied & oftentimes stated that “you can’t go to any other churches & believe that God will be pleased with you. To be right with God, you should join us, those other groups aren’t righteous”. The pastor would mention some evil befalling a person who left & imply or sometimes out & out state that evil befell that individual because they left the “true church.”

If you hint at leaving, pastor will scream from the pulpit that “anyone is free to leave this church!!” …but then the “man of God” (cough cough gag gag) will imply how you will not make it, & God might be so pissed that he would kill you & the “brethren” will shun you. We were told if we left that the brethren would “wash their hands of us” This sounds more like a gang than a church! I was told I was saved by grace…BUT.. if a *true church* didn’t materialize in our homestate, “that we would do well to consider relocating our lives to live by the *true church*” Of course I don’t recall pastor teaching on..”the kingdom of God comes not with observation, neither shall they say, Lo here! or Lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you”? Luke 17:20-21 what about we are members of a “SPIRITUAL HOUSE” what about “where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name, there am I …?” Rarely if ever heard these verses preached on..

I was told I was saved by grace.. BUT….because of the pastor manipulating bible verses & the pressure & guilt we moved our lives from the only home we’d ever known, left our family to live close by & be a real part of that supposed “spiritual family”. Yet…the majority of folks there didn’t go out of there way to befriend us or make time for us. This was very disconcerting…told pastor about our struggles, missing our family, feeling like outsiders…then….. I was told I was saved by grace..BUT.. in a sermon was blasted at us that “the church didn’t owe anyone friendship!!!”…..(never mind that we moved our lives for it & were told *they* were now our “spiritual family”….) talk about a bait & friggen switch!! We were told to move our LIVES, walked away from loving family, friends, career, opportunities, for our “spiritual family”…..gee…thanks, wish I would have known that “the church doesn’t owe anyone friendship” before we friggen moved here for that bible-cult! (mind you the pastor & members were incredibly solicitous to us when we lived out of state.. they love bombed us …BUT..once we moved here….well, their duty was done. They achieved their goal. We were now completely seperated from our friends & family…my husband starting his career, his ability to earn a living & support his family, from SCRATCH. Don’t abusers try to seperate you from your support system?

Our lives were a blip on a screen to them…they had no idea what it was like to MOVE YOUR LIFE for a group of people who were just too busy w/ their lives to make time for you. The stranger in a strange land is on their own…. I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… pastor informed me that if I was unhappy being in the “true church” & leave, they, (meaning the people in the *true church*) would “wash their hands of us”.(meaning cut us off from “fellowship”/friendship)……quite a frightening proposition considering we relocated to this state for that *church/cult* & the majority of people we knew were in the *church*! Obviously this was meant to scare us, manipulate us into not leaving the “true church”…..as if anyone can? Isn’t Christ the builder of his TRUE church? I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… that if we wanted to move back to our homestate, that was something the *pastor* could not condone. You see, we didn’t feel love or much true friendship after moving here for the “true church”.

We wanted to move back to our home state, where we have extended family, friends & connections.(we were even willing to stay nonresident members of that church/cult!)..doesn’t God say “I will be with you whithersoever thou goest?” Would God leave us because of where we choose to LIVE?? Pastor coldly informed us that he couldn’t be there for us if/when God would choose to judge us for moving back to our home state! We were in disbelief…. I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… “the pastor is to rule the church as the minister of Christ…hence the church is governed by Christ through His written word being administered by His appointed overseer, the PASTOR”…..that’s just fancy wording for THE PASTOR RUNS THE CHURCH..end of story. what about the Holy spirit leading us & the priesthood of believers? Who is the pastor accountable to in this setup? ………& not some lame answer of the pastor is accountable to God & the scriptures….I’m talking being accountable in the flesh to people who can question him without fear of the bullypulpit…..& other underhanded tactics. REAL ACCOUNTABILITY to REAL PEOPLE. There were NO checks & balances for the pastor. Another question….who preaches to the preacher? Funny how he would brag that he, like Paul was “chief of sinners”..well, if you’re a sinner like us lowly sheep, how come you have absolutely no checks & balances set up to make sure that you don’t become corrupted with power & narcissism?

I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… that to leave that *church* would be leaving the kingdom of God & the body of Christ. In addition, it was implied that God might kill us for the decision to walk away from that group. We wanted to leave what we believed was wrong for us, not healthy, not right. We no longer agreed w/ the half anymore, yet we were judged for following our own God given conscience. No, that is not FREE to leave. I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… was told that those holidays were pagan & I shouldn’t celebrate them…never mind that when I celebrated Christmas I NEVER worshipped the tree! What about not judging a person “with respect to an holy day….?” I guess forbidding holidays is a good way to keep folks alienated from their families who choose to celebrate the holidays. We were not allowed to be “convinced in our own minds “. Pastor made up his mind & convinced us of HIS mind. I was told

I was saved by grace…BUT… that if I was going to miss church, I ‘d need to call *pastor* I didn’t realize that my spirituality or relationship with God was tied into “church attendance”. It didn’t dawn on me that I’d have to be spoon fed from the same *pastor* my whole life. What about the holy spirit teaching a person??…..did Jesus say I’d need some MAN = pastor to be my shepherd for the rest of my days???? I have only one shepherd…the LORD IS MY SHEPHERD…not some “pastor”.

I was told I was saved by grace…BUT… that if the *church* felt like a prison, not to worry, because Paul said “he was a prisoner for Christ….” What a twisting of scriptures! Didn’t Jesus come to set the captives FREE? I was told I was saved by grace…BUT….but upon willingly leaving the group, we were then punished by being “excommunicated – church disciplined” & judged. Pastor assassinated our characters from his bully pulpit. I was told I was saved by grace…BUT…. when we finally got the courage & left the abusive group, we were told to “watch out for God’s fiery judgment & indignation to devour the adversary….” US…being the “adversary”. We didn’t walk away from CHRIST & we certainly are not God’s adversary’s…but evidentally that is the conclusion the pastor had of us, for WHAT??? following our conscience & being convinced in our own minds that staying in that *church-cult* was not good for us. For disagreeing w/ pastor & his man-made doctrines? Pastor was judge, jury & executioner of us & our characters.

I was told I was saved by grace.. BUT… upon exiting abusive cult church, people who knew me for some 19 years have turned their backs on us….we are shunned. We gave up so much of our lives for that group….cruelty & betrayal describes what we experienced, in addition to other adjectives I wont bring up right now. I was told I was saved by grace….BUT….in the pulpit *pastor* screamed “anyone is FREE TO LEAVE this church!!!!” Free to leave would be a hug & a blessing, not a curse in an “excommunication/exclusion letter”, public rebuking, character assassination & made to feel that you are satan’s minions because you wouldn’t bow down to an Independent-Primitive-Baptist-Calvinist- religious dictator. People on the outside don’t get the whole picture.

I will believe Xpastor has an ounce of integrity when he has our excommunication sermon & the sermons of every person ever “church disciplined”, UNEDITED & available for purchase or download to the general public so that people can REALLY see what goes on & they can see what “Free to leave” is, according to Xpastor. I was told I was saved by grace….BUT…. was put under the law in ways that the Catholic church I grew up in NEVER DARED. I had burdens heaped on me HEAVY to be borne that the Catholic church would never have imagined to put on me in this life. Yet this was GRACE RELIGION…..I dont think so! What about what JESUS SAYS RELIGION IS???? “visiting the fatherless & widows…is religion pure & undefiled”.

The religion I was in for some 19 years had NO FREEDOM, it was BONDAGE. It certainly wasn’t Jesus’ religion. All of what I was told WASN’T ABOUT GOD OR HIS GRACE it was about a RELIGIOUS SYSTEM & putting my family & I in BONDAGE. It’s all done under the guise of TRUE RELIGION where supposedly God’s grace is taught. People BE CAREFUL, these supposed “Sovereign Grace” preachers will talk, talk, talk about God’s GRACE, but be careful because we were made to jump through hoops that the apostles never even dared to make believers jump through!! written By April If anyone is told these things I was told PLEASE PLEASE BEWARE PLEASE THINK TWICE BEFORE THROWING AWAY YOUR GOD GIVEN FREEDOM! You will be living under a religious dictatorship. God guide you!

I’ve been in hundreds of both IFB and Southern Baptist churches from Alaska (where I was born) to Florida (where I live now. My dad was in the USAF when I grew up, and I sang around the US for a conservative (non-IFB) college when I attended college. (Primarily in IFB churches, but also in Brethren, E-Free, Methodist, Presbyterian, AME, Community, & Bible Churches.)

One IFB church in SW Oklahoma to which my family had joined back in the early 80s had a controlling, ungodly pastor. We prayed for him for 6 months before he abruptly resigned and we quickly had a Godly man in his place. (I was shocked when my dad used verses from Psalm 109 in his prayers and we got a different man in a few days; the discovery of imprecatory Psalms & prayers was an eye-opener for a 8th grader.) Anyway, that was the first time I’d ever seen a Pastor abuse his office. There were only 3 other times: sometime in the 1990s (when I first heard of Westboro Baptist), the next was in the early 2000s in N Illinois, and the last was FBC Hammond. Actually, that last one was sad, because my parents grew up in Chicago in the 60s and many different churches of multiple denominations across the Midwest fellowshipped at both Moody Bible Institute and FBC Hammond back then. They’ve gone down a long way from what I knew in the mid-70s.

The majority of the IFB churches I’ve joined, visited, &/or and attended have not been anything like what I saw described on the first page of your site or these 4 exceptions.

I still travel across the US & into Canada often, and do not find abuses as you’ve described. I have met some immature men (both pastors & deacons) that needed some lessons in Bible doctrine & social skills, but for the most part, the churches I’ve attended have been kind, loving, welcoming, and attempting to apply Biblical concepts to modern life.

I believe it has to do with a few things: if a church is strictly pro-Democrat or pro-Republican, then their Bible doctrine seems to also be my-way-or-the-highway. The churches with a mix of independents (with whatever other primary political leaning) seem to be more tolerant of sinners & Bible versions brought into their building. Also, those that believe salvation is of the Lord & not of “the version of the Bible used” tend to be more accepting of those using other Bibles. I’ve also noticed that when Pastors don’t preach Genesis (the “twain became one flesh”) with the chain of command found in the New Testament, then that church has a higher probability of not honoring females as a whole; our Pastor honors husbands with wives no matter which of the two have done something to help the church. He also encourages men to listen to the Godly advice of their wives (& vice versatile). Finally, I believe that the music embraced by the churches can be used to determine a lot about that congregation. Currently, my family and I sing & play old hymns in a bluegrass-style with stringed instruments. As we travel, we’ve found we are welcomed in most IFB churches, and almost always asked to stay and play during after-church fellowships, but only invited to sing & play during the services of about 85% of them. The 15% that don’t ask us to play for them generally are larger, quite dogmatic in their politics, & in their views on salvation being thru a version rather than by the Grace of God thru Faith in Christ without any dependent works on the part of an individual.

I don’t care if you do or don’t publish my comment. I didn’t write to attempt to get published on your page; just wanted to let you know that there are still good IFB churches in both the US & Canada that are not “cultic,” overly-controlling, or heretical in their doctrine. Most of them are small & politically inconsequential, but are working to spread the Gospel to those nearby them.

Wow, I stumbled across this site months ago 6 or so and by accident. I was so floored that so many people see and experience what I from Baptist Churches altogether for the most part. It would be pages to tell you my whole store but to some very large degree I agree with everyone about this abuses, I suffer from panicked attacks and fear of going to hell for years . I feel I have never measured up to Gods expectations and I have failed him with my existence as a human being. I have suffered near 40 years and have been confused and not sure what God thinks of me and sometimes I really don't care if He hates me there would be no changing his mind anyways and I will be doomed from knowing his best. I struggle with this from time to time. I have picked up their bad habits and do the same thing they have done to me without even knowing that I commit the same sins and I have cause to be angry at my brethren the leaders, I seem to attract these types of abuses of Churches. I distrust all leadership! I'm opinated against them and sometimes tell them so in a wise manner they hate when a woman corrects them they love to show us that we are wrong and they are skilled at turning the conversation around on you and you will never get anywhere with these idiots who only way to deal with you is put you in a spot in their minds called the rabbit hole and leave it there! That's how they deal with us! They are more than dismissive they have NO idea about Christ and most of these pastors are gentile churches. This judgment that starts @ the house of God first is much needed and they will receive a greater CONDEMNATION, NOT COMMENDATION! And that is what they act like that they are so holy and they are commending themselves and are blind that it is judgment that awaits them! This is the same PRIDE that brought Satan down, he was so prideful he never saw it coming when Christ died upon the Cross until it was to late, JUDGMENT!!! I am leaving my baptist church soon because they too have hints of this, they never once came to visit me in 7 yes, they heard my struggles in prayer meetings but never came to help US. One person helped in a small way and I think it was all because she wanted me to join the church in the first place and I did found out that she lies to much and then denies it has to keep the image up as she is close to the pastor through marriage of in laws! I still somewhat can't tell if she is telling me exaggerated truths or what, she is a friend because at least she was the only one who did help me! I just over look her deception flaws! I'm getting to old for this BS and I have only tithed at this church about 4 times in all these years because of these things and Abuse's. I refuse to give to abusive churches that treat me like shit! So I tithe out to other good TV ministries more reputable in their missions, or give directly to the cause screw the church that abuses, dictatorship etc.. This is Gods department! He will deal with it but as for me I move on! The government is seeking to take away the 501 c 3 status of these churches in America, now that would humble these preachers, take that easy money away and see what they are really made of. Don't envy that position! They bring Gods correction upon themselves in many respects and then cry that I have been a servant, why? and still will never make the connection to their own arrogance that is the inevitably the sadness of it, because the victims never get enough emotional rest and restitution from the abuses. We lose out on our full function to be used of God because of the healing process leaves us so mangled that we become no good for the Kingdom. I never promote my church to other because of this! I do my gospel tract ministry on the streets and let God do the rest! My church wants us to pro ote people to get to church where I go but no way, I encourage them to find a good bible believing church. So sad that is what these church have created in me, not all the people in them some great people but they are followers and your problems would never be resolved and we would look like the trouble makers of the church. I get feed but at what cost!!!!!!!,,???????????. Thanks for letting me vent!

Hello Steve,

I don't know if you're still active as I didn't see a recent post but I wanted to reach out anyway. My brother became involved with the IBF faith during his rehab for heroin addiction. They basically rebooted his brain and he bought in to their theology. He eventually started attending West Coast Bible College and while there he got engaged to a cradle IFBer. Eventually the pressure of their rules and standards coupled with the pressures from his fiancee's father to pursue a degree my brother didn't really want to do, he started using again and was turned in by his roommate. Needless to say, he was expelled and the girl's dad made her cut off all ties to him. After that he went to Anchor Academy to get clean again and to fix his "backsliding". He got clean, and started a job at the cotton gin near him. Of course they never got him psychological counseling to find the root of his problem, as reading the Word was enough. He relapsed again and now is back home struggling everyday. Through all this the desertion of his church and girlfriend, the unforgiving nature of the theology he still stands up for the IFB way of church. Sadly he has also got my mom and sister attending now. I just last December found my faith and am a confirmed Episcopalian. Their church holds like 4 different separation doctrines and consider my faith to be apostate so my family is supposed to separate from me, luckily they don't ...yet. It just upsets me this is the first faith they tried and now they have all these twisted perceptions about how to be a Christian and have all sorts of misinformation about my faith. We are an ecumenical denomination which they consider bad as they have separation doctrine. The anti-intellectualism espoused by there pastors causes them to be suspicious of most of what I believe in the Bible because I'm too educated and don't hold to 6 day creation or new earth theology. I have a very fulfilling church life and am thinking of being a priest. It saddens me because I feel they are getting a raw deal when it comes to their spiritual life. I've told them they don't need to join my church but I do feel they are being misled in there biblical teachings. I get all the usual IFB rhetoric, "you just want a preacher that tells you what you want to here," or "you just need to read your bible", "your church is of the world because you allow gays to marry and that's apostasy" They never wanna hear why we do what we do at service, rather just go on the assumptions and prejudice of their pastor. But, I love them and pray they will see the flatness of their doctrines and pastors teachings. Thanks for this site though. Please hit me back if you can

Thanks so much for reading this. I learned of you through wartburgwatch.com, and Watch Keep, and boy can I tell you some scary things about the IFBC!! I not only knew about Jack Hyles, and Lester Roloff, but they came to First Baptist Church in Easton, PA on multiple occasions. Joe Thompson was the Pastor there, and to say that he idolized these men, would be an understatement!

My family and I went to this church for 8 years, and attended its 'Christian Institute' for 6. It was the WORST thing my parents ever did!!

While there, I witnessed Thompson not only NOT preach the Word, but politics, but say demeaning and unbiblical things about women, the government, and more so!

He also brutally, physically abused my two mentally challenged brothers Daniel and Seth, and sexually abused and assaulted me. This sexual abuse occurred from the time I was 14, till 16. (I had physically developed not only early but in a more pronounced manner than most young girls, so I physically looked older.) Examples of this, were him suggestively touching my shoulders, back, and my behind, but I have one VERY clear memory of him coming up behind me, while doing dishes in the church's kitchen, and proceeding to both kiss me on the mouth, grope and fondle me! When I would resist and confront him on his behavior, he would not only refuse to admit his sin, but he would 'gaslight' me, berate me, and worse. He would even go so far as to make me look like the offender, and have me punished for defending myself!! One such example, of his behavior in this area, was when I confronted him using I Corinthians 7:1, his response was "When you get to be a woman, the I won't' touch you!" He further threatened me with my academic records, (Said he would falsify them, and state that I was a 'problem student'.)

Because of what he did and the fear of his reprisals, I dropped out of school, but did go on to get not only my HS Diploma, but graduate from an awesome and godly Christian college, named Philadelphia College of Bible, which is now Cairn University.

It was there, that I opened up about what happened, and received some VERY godly Christian therapy, which God used to help me heal. I chose to forgive Thompson, but I also asked God for justice in this area, and He granted it. In April of 1992, I received a phone call from my father, (Who is now with the Lord.), informing me that Thompson had been killed by a 22 yr. old young man with mental health issues. I thought you would want to know this, and see just how much damage Jack Hyles's influence caused.

If you would like to know more, feel free to contact me.

In Christ;
Wendy Saddler

I grew up in an Independent, Fundamental KJV only, legalistic Baptist church as well…unfortunately spent about 16 years there or so….. I was so turned off to it by the time I was 18, that I stayed out of church until I was about 28 or so, due to my ignorance, thinking that all churches were like this. I did not want to go to hell, but in my opinion, going to this chruch was hell, so I refused to go back.

Then when I was 27 or so, i was curious and thirsty for God, and so I started going to a southern Baptist church which turned me back on because they were not legalistic and taught me about a true relationship with God and that it is what’s in the heart that matters, not all the ridiculous man-made rules and “religiousness” that goes on in the Fundamental type churches. I have now attended a Full-Gospel Pentecostal church that is not legalistic, for over nine years and could never go back to the rigid, black and white way of seeing things….. fundamentalism. It is my strong personal opinion, that any time you have “Fundamentalism” in a “religion” it is going to be extreme and out of balance… the same goes with the fundamentalists in the mormom church, muslims, etc…. extremely out of balance in the worst sense.

Though I agree not all of these Fundamental churches are manipulating, mean-spirited, controlling modern-day Pharisees, like most of them (99.9%) are, they for the most part are, they do an EXTREME amount of damage to the “church” as a whole, as they misrepresent what the Gospel is truly about and get people side-tracked onto rules, so much that they are so busy trying to please the leadership of the church with the length of their skirt being just right, or whether or not they’re wearing panty hose, or the men’s hair is the right length, that their whole way of thinking eventually becomes consumed with pleasing the leadership,and not God.

They do this all in the name of what they interpret to be “God’s true old-fashioned way”…. thus they stick to the KJV of the bible, as they believe old-fashioned is the best and most right way to be a “Christian”. What they fail to recogize in their narrow-minded thinking, is that the KJV is a version of the bible as well, and that there is nothing extra holy about a version that was made in the year of 1611. 99% of them would argue til they turn blue in the face, and sometimes even purple and black, that any other version is demonic and from the pits of hell. this is also a point where they go wrong, as we bring no glory to God whathsoever arguing about these matters, or anything that has to do with God… I have saw and heard of a lot of arguments in the Fundamental type churches, where people get so arrogant and hot-headed, trying to prove their point, as it is all based on a mentality of “we the KJV only people know best!!”… I honestly get very lost in this old version, as it is in Old English, and after going the spiritual abuse that I went thru growing up, I honestly never reach for a KJV bible. They believe it is the spirit of the Antichrist. They find soemthing wrong with anything and everything in Christendom that is not part of how they see things, or any way that is modern versus old-fashioned. God is not impressed with tradition or old-fashionedness, this is not God’s heart. God’s heart is love, mercy, and grace, and helping us find our way home to him one day, through that same grace and mercy, and love….

I have also discovered over the years that denominationalism is idolatry, and 99% of these fundamental Baptist believers are very haughty and prideful in the fact that they are part of this “elect” group of believers, and very proud of being a “Baptist” and you will be a whole lot more likely to hear them say this than to humbly say they are proud to be a “Christian” or “Child of God”…. They do not like to be around people who are not part of their elect group either, which is also not scriptural. I have a famly member who is a preacher at a Fundamnetal Baptist church and he finds something wrong with being on My space or Facebook, as it is “of the world”. Again, what they seem to fail to recognize, is that God can use outlets like this as a witness and for reaching people, and that it is not part of the “world” to let your let shine in that same dark world.

If wearing dresses makes me look holy, and my heart is dark as hell being judugemental and religious spirited, what would be the point? I know of a young lady who went to the same church I did while growing up. She told me the story where she raised 200.00 to attend a church camp, she did fundraisers, worked real hard to raise the money, and when it came time to go on the trip to the youth camp, her youth leader (who was also my youth leader) looked her straight up and down with a very demeaning and judgemental, better than thou mannerism, and said “You are not going to the youth camp, you are not holy.” He viewed her as “not holy” because she was wearing casual khaki pants, that were very decent and loose, and she did not find the holy code of wearing a dress, so he forbid her to go. The last I heard, she attends no church as she has been so hurt by this same church. She also was molested by the bus driver who took her to church, at this same very church in this town. He was also her God-father. I have heard story after story of people being hurt beyond measure by this church’s control, spiritual abuse, mind-control, judgementalism, rudeness, and hatred, all in the name of “winning souls to the Lord”.

I find personally that the whole wearing dresses all the time, sets up a spirit of “better than thou entitlement” or a sense that they are part of, again, an elite group of Christians, who have it all right, and that no one else does. It all boils down to “self-righteousness” though they are seemingly blind to discerning this. They find something wrong with anything and everything from Christian music with drum beats in it, a Christian singer without the look of a Fundamental Baptist, anyone who does not read the KVJ version of the bible, anyone who has been divorced cannot and is forbidden to get married in their churches, they mock people speaking in tongues, which is in itself bordering blaspheming the Holy Ghost, which the Bible says is unpardonable. I would not even want to get close to taking the chance of doing that… btw, Tongues is very biblical, and may I remind everyone, respectfully, that God never changes. They use the argument to explain their disbelief, that the bible says that “Tongues shall cease”. The words right after that in that verse is “Knowledge shall cease”. Has knowledge ceased yet? No…. it will only cease, just like tongues, after we are in eternity, and it is no longer needed here on earth…. What they are unfortunately failing to recognize is the big picture… Tongues shall indeed cease, in eternity, when we as believers, no longer have the need to use this spiritual gift for edification to the spiritual body as a whole and personally. They would find, however, that the gift of tongues would help get their minds off of themselves and their rules, and onto a supernatural and loving God.

I know I have rambled a bit, however I am very passionate about awareness on legalism and spiritual abuse, as I know, first hand, the damage it can cause to one’s spiritual growth and how one views God. Just because a church is zealous about “saving” souls, does not mean they are scripturally on the mark. We can, without even knowing it, be zealous in a way that builds ourself up, and not the true Kingdom of God. Thanks for reading, and God bless

Looking back at what I experienced, how could this happen to me. I thought I had a sense of self awareness, intuitive thinking skills, secure in who I was as a person. I firmly believe that people don't purposely join churches for the sake of being spirituality abused. I mean how do we define spiritual abuse anyway? Most people don't talk about it because either they think it doesn't exist or they don't know what the symptoms are. It's easy to talk about domestic violence, rape, sexual abuse, bullying, and stalking because these have obvious legal repercussions. However psychological abuse or spiritual abuse, whatever you want to call it, attacks the very core of you who are as a person. I'm not saying that the other forms of abuse mentioned above, don't carry their own form of psychological abuse, of course they do. So how does it happen anyway? The first piece of advice I can give people is this...you wouldn't go grocery shopping when you're hungry, so don't join a church when you find yourself in some emotional turmoil. This can include a bad breakup, job loss, divorce, death in the family/friend, foreclosure on your home, or any other devastating situation in your life. It's because of an unfortunate event that more often than not can cloud your judgement, and your guard is down. You are already emotionally unstable and some churches or high control groups can see this.

I remember I was walking home from work one evening on Woodchuck Rd. I noticed a man sitting in a chair playing an acoustic guitar in front of his RV on the side of Faith Baptist Church. I stopped to listen out of curiosity, only hearing cheesy Christian campfire songs. Songs I remember hearing from the occasional camping trips when I was in Boy Scouts. We introduced ourselves. He pulled a chair from inside his RV and brought it outside so I could join him. The folding chair was made from cheap aluminum with vinyl 60's design floral prints in a cross weave pattern. The same kind my grandparents used on their fishing trips to Deland. He looked like he was in his late 60s. He told me that him and his wife travel around the country in his RV restoring Fundamental Baptist Churches, whether that's through fellowship and soul winning or actually rebuilding Churches that have been destroyed by a natural disaster. I thought that was quite noble. I wasn't reluctant at all to tell him about me and Amy's church experiences when we were little. We were raised Episcopalian...one of the most liberal Christian denominations. He then asked if we could read the sinner's prayer together from a verse in the Bible. Sure why not. I was invited to join him and his wife at a potluck for their congregation that took place in Milton FL. It was genuinely fun... meeting new people playing softball and volleyball, eating burgers and hotdogs under the gazebo. There I met Pastor Wooten and Pastor Bailey and their wives. They welcomed me with open arms. I remember sitting down eating and I got a text from my mom that Uncle Frank had died from liver cancer. Him and Aunt Linda were God parents to Amy and I. About a week later, I was walking home from work at night on Keating Rd. As I was walking, this SUV pulls up beside me, I take off my headphones to hear Kris it's Pastor Wooten, do you need a ride? Because I was still far from home, I reluctantly agreed. On the way home, he asked how has my life been? Such a vague question, I didn't know how to respond with a very specific answer. So I just replied good. So I asked him how do you know what God's will is for your life? He simply couldn't give a simple answer to such a complex question. At that point, he knew I needed spiritual guidance and help. From this point on, It just got worse.
Biblical Counseling is a form of Evangelical Pastoral counseling that centers around the Bible and the teachings of Jesus.
This in and of itself is not necessary wrong, however, the way it is administered can be dangerous to a person's mental state. The extreme form of this counseling in which Fundamental Baptist Churches adhere to believe that it repudiates mainstream psychology and psychiatry as humanistic. The aim of Biblical Counseling is to effect change in the counselee by encouraging conformity to biblical scripture. Biblical counseling has been criticized as being focused on sin. As if all the answers to all of mental health issues can be found in the Bible. I wish it was that easy. I have to admit though, they bring up a very good question...how does a psychiatrist properly diagnose mental illness? I mean I could go into a psychiatrists office and explain my symptoms, but does that mean I suffer from whatever my psychiatrist says I'm suffering from? This form of counseling has been criticized for focusing on sin and behavior which fails to deal adequately with emotion, grief, and suffering, which lacks the understanding of complex human motivations. It is not appropriate for abuse victims in my opinion. In fact, I think it isn’t appropriate in most any case! It is too simplistic, it employs people who simply are not “competent to counsel,” and naively confronts essentially every issue as a moral failure (sin). Here are some basic principles a person will learn while going through this kind of counseling...

1. Feelings are not to be trusted. Truth comes before feelings. God does not appreciate our feelings.
2. Suffering is a way of life for the Christian. We are to imitate Christ and He suffered . . . . so we must suffer.
3. There is a Bible verse for every problem. We were given books that had certain sins at the top of each chapter like . . . . “gluttony”, “divorce”, “anger” . . . . underneath were pat answers for everyone’s sin issues.
4. EVERY PROBLEM was actually a sin issue.
5. We cannot change anyone else, we can only change ourselves. So . . . . let's say if a husband was abusing his wife. . . . The wife's job was to work only on her reaction and make sure it is not sinful.
6. Marriage is held as the highest, most important entity. It was considered higher than our right to live.
7. ALL psychiatric drugs are bad, sinful and harmful.
8. A woman’s job is to submit to her husband, NO MATTER WHAT he is doing to her.
9. Delayed obedience equates to disobedience.

They always manage to get her to focus on her own sin issues. For example, if a woman's husband has an addiction to pornography, they'll suggest that she wasn’t available enough to her husband. That maybe she didn’t allow him to see her naked. Of course, we know anyone dealing with any kind of addiction should own up to it and get the proper help. Unfortunately, more often than not, this way of teaching from the Bible lights the fuse for spiritual abuse to happen, which occurs very subtly. The fundamentalist worldview says...you can’t be depressed and there’s no such thing. You are having these thoughts, this self-loathing, because you realize how out of tune you are with God’s will. This only creates a downward spiral that leads to more depression.

So getting back to the question I had for Pastor Wooten... how do I know what God's will is for my life? At the time he couldn't give me a straight answer. So I started going to Sunday evening services with the hope that maybe I'll get some answers. About a month later, I was feeling discouraged in the fact that perhaps religion wasn't for me. I politely texted Pastor Wooten and told him that I will no longer be going to Church that I wasn't getting anything out of it. I said that I suffer from depression and I should talk with my doctor about getting back on Lexapro and that maybe your church wasn't fulfilling my needs. He then said via text message..Kris I'm sorry to hear this, if you are a real Christian why are you so depressed? Kris picture yourself driving fast around a corner on a cliff and there's a sign that reads proceed with caution. You can take meds to "numb" the pain, but you're still going to crash. Kris please don't knock down the signs. We love you and care about you. Please take care of yourself and, you are always welcome at Faith Baptist. I gave it another go. Kris, I'm so happy to see you this evening, welcome back, he says. After service that evening, he asked me to join him for lunch on one of my off days from work which was on a Wednesday. Basically it was more of a Bible study and him wanting to get to know me better. I felt at the time, opening up about what my hobbies and interests was something he seemed to have a genuine interest in. Our Bible study/lunch was a weekly thing for the two of us. Something struck a cord with me one afternoon while we're eating at Zaxbys. He said.. you told me you like music? What type of music do you prefer? I replied, heavy metal, classic rock. I even told him about the bands I've seen live..Kiss, Smashing Pumpkins, Marilyn Manson, Scorpions. He asked me do you know where the term "rock n roll originated from? No, I replied. He said "to move back in forth" usually in a provocative sensual manner. I didn't think anything of it at first. He then proceeded to ask did I know the acronym for KISS, I said no. he replied Knights In Satan's Service so we looked on Wikipedia and sure enough it was just a rumor that was based solely upon unsubstantiated claims primary to make the band appear more controversial than they actually were. I changed topics quickly, not before he chimed in and said you're not there yet, give it time. I thought to myself what a condescending thing to say. Next, that same day, he showed me a YouTube video called cruise ships vs battleships. In this short video, ships are used as metaphors for Churches. The premise is that you go on a cruise for self fulfilment, fun and leisure, while getting on a battleship, you are preparing yourself for God and defending yourself against all the evil in the world. This is a flawed analogy because it's presumptuous in its own claim. This claim purports that a person can't join a church that's fun, inviting, and still worship God. This was the first red flag that I witnessed. He isn't going to come right out and say if you don't belong to a "Bible Believing" church like a fundamental Baptist Church then you really aren't getting saved. Instead, he was all about subtly and insinuating thoughts and ideas in my mind.

Loading the Language

Loaded language (also known as loaded terms or emotive language) is wording that attempts to influence an audience by using emotion. This is highly effective among high control groups because they're hijacking your critical thinking skills with you having no real awareness of what's really going on.

Loaded words and phrases have strong emotional implications and involve strongly positive or negative reactions beyond their literal meaning, For example, the phrase tax relief refers literally to changes that reduce the amount of tax citizens must pay. However, use of the emotive word "relief" implies that all tax is an unreasonable burden to begin with. Some churches often use its own complex vocabulary. Words carry with them entire packages of implications, emotions, metaphors, and even past experiences. Some may invent new words and phrases that carry with them much more complicated understandings, or they manipulate existing words to change their meanings subtly or dramatically.

Loaded language serves several purposes:

1. Relabels or redefines meanings

2. Shuts down critical thinking ability

3. Further isolates the group, making it difficult to communicate with outsiders

Let's take a look at the Bible verse..1 John 2:16-16...Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. Now to be honest I have no idea how to interpret this verse. However, if we look carefully this verse is rather vague. This is an example of Pastor Wooten taking this particular verse and applying the words or phrases... worldly, desires of the flesh, or of the world to mean anything that he thinks maybe applicable for example, dancing, rock n roll, alcohol, association with gays is considered "worldly"therefore these things should be avoided. Another example would be if you had a tennis match on a Sunday morning that conflicted with your church service, Pastor Wooten would tell you stop pursuing "fleshy desires" such as tennis and focus on pursuing the Lord. Over the course of several months worth of Bible study/lunch outings, the questions became more intrusive and more guilt trip type of questions...such as how does the music I listen to help me become a better Christian? Obviously it doesn't, but neither does eating at McDonald's, or wearing blue jeans. Another question was asked, Kris what do you think is going to happen to you within the next 100 years? My answer was dying. However, the way the question was worded, implied as if something bad is coming my way if I didn't submit to his authority. These types of people adopt a black and white thinking mindset. Either it's good or its evil with no room for gray areas. Take the word "wrong" for example, something can be morally wrong and something can be legally wrong. Just because something is legally wrong doesn't necessarily mean it's morally wrong and vice versa. To give you an example of his twisted logic, you may think it's okay to have gay friends, however, in his mind we're supposed to be separated from the world according to the Bible verse mentioned above. So another guilt trip kind of question would be, since I'm ok with having gay friends, why not befriend a serial killer, a paedophile, a rapist, etc He did this because by lumping all sin together is easier than acquiring any kind of intuition and critical thinking.. Another example of loading the language would be to take the word "judgemental", this word has a negative connotation associated with it. So we're all judgemental right? I mean when you go grocery shopping, you may like Pepsi instead of Coke. There's nothing wrong with Coke, but for some reason you prefer the taste of Pepsi. So what he's done here is making an attempt to confuse me by thinking that the word "judgemental" is the same as having a preference. His motivations are all based off of fear and unrelenting subservience to his own agenda. The last time we had lunch together was at Golden Corral. I purposely chose this restaurant as an experiment. Normally, I can't stand "all you can eat" buffets. So after all the subtle discussions we've had about my music choices, studying human anatomy in art class, attending a Bible believing church, having gay friends, etc. I asked him so I'm supposed to separate myself from sin or anything that could hinder my spiritual journey with God? He said yes. OK then, look around the room...what do you see? He said people eating. I explained to him that Gluttony is a very serious sin according to scripture, it's even one of the seven deadly sins. So how many plates of food am I allowed to consume before it becomes Gluttony? The very fact that we're even eating in a place where we can eat as much as we want for a set price could hinder my spiritual journey with God, don't you think? I could tell he was getting agitated, so he didn't blow up inside a public place where other people could hear and see his actions. At that point, I was starting to see the writing on the wall. In reality he was just cherry picking certain verses from the Bible to misuse to his advantage.

The straw that broke the camel's back

On a Wednesday afternoon in May of 2015, I decided to tell him in person that I wouldn't be going to Faith Baptist church anymore, or meeting him for Bible study/lunch. After the last time we met at Golden Corral, I felt strongly about cutting off all ties with him and Faith Baptist church once and for all. So I sat in his office, explaining to him in a nice respectful way that this church wasn't meeting my needs, therefore I think it's time to part ways and that I'm going to follow the advice from my therapist. He then asked...what advice is your therapist giving you? I replied to a find a church that better suits my needs, to meet new people, continue with my art, basically do things that bring me joy. He then abruptly yelled NO!! I then started to laugh at his response. I then replied with.. I didn't come here to be brainwashed so you could turn me into some goody two shoes. He lost his cool!! I've never seen or heard anything like this before. He started yelling in a fast angry manner as if he was on some power trip. He asked if Jesus went to jail for me because I got a DUI, would I continue to drink? I said sure I would, he then screamed you would?? It's funny that he didn't mention anything about not continuing to drive, seeing how drinking and driving are required to get a DUI in the first place. He then proceeded to ask me to name 3 things that are important to me...so I said a car because I wasn't driving at the time, art exhibit someday, and a girlfriend. So he screamed again God should always be number one!!! In my defense, the question was rather vague. If he wanted a specific answer perhaps he should've asked a specific question. Besides some things should go without saying. He attempted to make me feel shame and guilt about the music I listen to. He preaches that certain musical sounds are inherently evil, specifically the “rock beat.” In other words, he literally believes that a certain combination of frequencies is evil. And because he is so hyper-focused on the evils of the “rock beat,” Pastor Wooten will attack the work of Christian music artists while endorsing and even selling music by classical musicians who were neither Christians nor intending Christian messages through their music.

The fallacy here is that while music certainly CAN communicate ideas and thoughts that are evil, the sounds themselves are not evil. Saying that a particular beat is inherently evil would be the literary equivalent of saying that certain forms of paper and ink used to read and write wicked things are evil. Beats, timbres, and frequencies are simply the tools used to communicate meanings, not the meanings themselves.

Fallacy #1: People have already dulled the sensitivity of their consciences. (Music is a form of worship.)

The Truth: This is circular reasoning. This fallacy requires the assumption that rock music is sinful. However, if one were to believe that the music is not sinful, then their consciences are apparently dulled. It is a closed logical loop. Leaving no room for the possibility that rock music is not sinful, and no room for a person to come to that personal conviction for their life.

Also, the statement that “music is a form of worship” is absolutely false. Music is a not a form of worship. It is a tool of worship. Not all music is worship, and not all worship is music. Music is simply one of the ways in which we CAN worship God.

Fallacy#2: People are already “in tune” with the spirit of this world.

The Truth: This is also circular reasoning very much like the first fallacy. There is no room for a person to believe that rock music is acceptable without being accused of being in tune with the world.

The use of sympathetic vibration as a proof for this truth is absolutely laughable from a scientific viewpoint. Sympathetic vibration, technically known as sympathetic resonance, is an acoustic phenomenon in which an item sharing harmonic similarities with another object vibrates when the other object is set into motion. An example of this, hold down (without sounding) the key of middle C on the piano. While holding this key down, strike and release a C lower on the piano. You will hear the lower C and the middle C both sounding long after it is released because of the sympathetic vibrations in the strings.] The use of sympathetic vibration as proof for this is ludicrous, (a) because it is a natural phenomenon and not a spiritual one, and (b) it is a harmonic phenomenon and not a rhythmic one.

Fallacy #3: They have already accepted the goal of the false religion of “Do your own thing; satisfy yourself.”

The Truth: While much popular music specifically states this goal, Christian music typically carries messages that are exactly the opposite. Again, he is assuming that the beat itself carries the evil message. Also, there are strong undertones of the belief that if something is enjoyable, it must somehow be immoral.

Fallacy #4: They have already greatly increased their vulnerability to exploitation by the world. (Wrong music comes with rebellion, drugs, and immorality.)

The Truth: This is what is known as a “slippery slope fallacy.” By connecting rock music with rebellion, drugs, and immorality, Pastor Wooten implants the idea that once one listens to rock music, they have no choice then but to proceed into these other “greater” forms of sin. From personal experience, I can say that this argument is absolutely paralyzing for many people who enjoy secular music. The fear of sliding into immorality is enough to keep them from listening to anything with a rock beat. I can also say from personal experience that this is an absolute lie. The rock beat does NOT lead to these things by default.

As you can see, his true colors showed through that afternoon. After he calmed down, I asked him point blank... when is it ever going to be good enough for you and this Church? I can't have gay friends, can't listen to rock music, can't drink alcohol, can't join a denominational Church other than Baptist, can't study human anatomy. Next you'll probably tell me that I can't celebrate Halloween, watch R rated movies, go to parties. I said... your church is a cult, legalistic, and abusive!! All he could reply with was... I pray that you find the peace that you're looking for. Afterwards, I walked out and never went back. At the time of this last meeting in his office I was taking antidepressants. However, a few weeks later I weened myself off to see if I could cope without drugs.

After all this was over, I started to have panic attacks and uncontrollable crying. Anything I had in my house that reminded me of religion I threw away... including a few Bibles. So now the question is...was I spirituality abused? I would say so. Of course my depression got worse, so I went back to continue my meds. People who leave abusive Churches often times feel isolated, a disconnect from God. They start to develop symptoms of PTSD, depression that can sometimes lead to suicide, horrible nightmares/strange dreams. As if God is constantly watching every move they make, just waiting to be dragged to hell for every moral failure they endure.

Religion is like a drug, administered in the wrong dosages, and it can wreak havoc on a person's conscience, well-being, and state of mind.

Testimonial *I went to a IFB due to their door to door efforts ,certainly God used them in my search for a church and I was impacted by their fiery preaching , went to a IFB "college " in Mexico , came back to the states after a few years and went right back to the church that originally went the first time ( Northwest BBC, Keith Gomez , Elgin ,IL) stayed there for a few years only to be part of the mental , spiritual , and emotional abuse that the influence of Jack H. Produced in all the graduates from their college .

Not able to keep up with the unwritten demands ( dress code , assistance , visitation, church involvement, bus ministry etc etc ) moved to another smaller church (Spanish) where the "pastor" finally came to confess to his adulterous relationship with the church secretary that went for years .

By this time another notorious pastor in the Spanish IFB movement moved into town And while he was pastoring a Spanish department in Gomez church he took over as a "substitute " pastor , while the second church would find a another pastor .

By this time I moved my family back to NBBC to be under this notorious Spanish pastor ( the reason I do not mention his name is because my daughters are still under his influence , my ex wife divorced me ) .

Here is where everything started to get twisted : my ex wife was asked to be secretary for him , I allowed it thinking that what would be a safest place for her to be working at (wrong) just as his ex boss( he was staff for some 10+ years during Hyles reign .

His emotional support and influence made our marital life more and more difficult , their concept of leadership is measured in church involvement, the more involved the more "spiritual " you are ( false) . Having to work two jobs to provide for my family ( church salary is absolute nothing , all part of the manipulation scheme. I can explain in detail) there was not much time to get too involved at church , therefore nothing to be admired .

Hyles thought that no IFB should have deacons elected by the church as stablished in acts 6 basically not to have nobody to answer to , no elders , no deacons , free reign .

I learned a lot of all the inner movements of the IFB during the time my ex wife was his secretary, the manipulation , lack of accountability, "love offerings" ( tax free) , intimidation and on and on and on .

Finally we separated and I was served the divorce papers , mister F gave her a significant raise to move her out , and the late night calls once she lived by herself started to come in ( I had access to the phone bills ) . When presented this improper behavior to the "leadership " of the church was futile , they alll worshipped the man , total of waste of time .
A divorced woman still is working as a staff member , a pastor still committing emotional adultery , another family destroyed by the "leadership " of this IFB ,
I moved to a different church ( harvest) I've learned exponentially more over the two years that I have here than over the almost 30 yrs on the movement ,I still carry a lot of bagage from my endoctrinaton as a FB but I became at last free .

I've been training to be a biblical counselor, and I am seeing all the contradictions and manipulation that the movement does , I'm working with brothers in the process of being divorced ( not by our own choice ) or those getting out of the ,"JUDGAMENTAL Baptist movement " , please get out of the movement if you are subject to this class of abuse , your generations to come will thank you for that .

Steve,

Somehow I stumbled across your blog and decided to take a look, considering I was once a "Fundamental Baptist" as well. I was converted in an IFB church in 1978 at the age of 12 during the preaching of the Gospel, and lived a mostly disobedient life of worldliness until 2002 when the Lord ( actually using David Cloud's website ) caused me to see the truth of biblical separation for the child of God.

I started growing after that, when I actually read my Bible instead of relying on the weekly sermons and Bible studies to keep me fed. I embarked on a testing of all things "IFB" which resulted in me leaving first, the IFB church I had attended for over 25 years, and then eventually all visible churches due to tolerance of their errors.

What I found reading over your blog, was an interesting mix of what I consider to be truth and error, which made me wonder if the person writing the blog had left that denomination for the same reason I did...that Fundamental, Independent Baptists are a *denomination* rather than a church of God's true saints, who mix large amounts of truth with smaller amounts of error, AND hold to those errors tenaciously...even when presented with the truths of Scripture.

I can see that you and I do not agree, especially on the English translation issue ( which really has nothing to do with whether or not the KJV is an "inspired translation", but has everything to do with faithfulness and accuracy when compared to the Majority Text, the Received Text and the Critical Text ) and I suspect that there are other things we will not agree on as well.

I briefly went over your list of "You Might Be an Independent Fundamental Baptist If...and found many things I agree with wholeheartedly.
However, I also found some interesting things that I not only disagree with your perspective on, but wonder how anyone who is seriously considering and weighing things biblically could not see:

>> Number 3 comes to mind immediately...not everyone who is convinced of the accuracy of the Authorized is IFB, nor were they ever in that denomination IMO. Look up a gentleman by the name of Will Kinney, for example. There are definite reasons for not trusting most of the new translations, and it has everything to do with the Greek texts used. A secondary issue is MONEY, and the publishing houses' apparent desire to "get things rolling" to keep money pouring in. Don't believe me? Check out the front page of Biblica.com. This page purports to give one a truly accurate AND readable translation, but what they do not tell you is how inaccurate the NIV really is. It uses Dynamic Equivalency instead of Formal Equivalency as a translation technique, for starters...look up the difference. Also, the use of marketing gimmick language to hook the reader into believing their claims is not only predictable , but blatant. Is God's word contained in the newer translations? Sure...but I think anyone doing careful research and that cares about every word of God will come to many of the same conclusions I did.

>> 14 comes next, and I wonder if you believe that CCM is OK? Frankly, it is rooted in the flesh and the Lord commands us to deny it, which can be difficult I admit. I've grown more in the last 3 years after setting aside any ungodly and worldly entertainment ( especially the music that has a beat and hooks the flesh ) than I ever did before.

>> 18 dovetails with 14, but only for the reason that I firmly believe secular music is of the world, and most of it is of the devil...rock music especially.

>> 29 is interesting, because state accreditation actually does limit what can and cannot be taught. I've seen many testimonies of what schools were limited to, once they sought state funding and / or accreditation. That aside, the best way for a believer to school their children is home schooling, IMO.

>> 30 seems unbelievable, in the light of what Scripture says about the flesh and about disciplining children. The best thing a parent can do is to start a program of corporal punishment as soon as possible, thereby limiting the severity of the inevitable teenage rebellious years before they leave home. Apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit in a saved individual's life, nothing but the Law and discipline will ever be able to fend off violence and rebellion in an unbeliever's life. There must be something to curb the flesh's appetites, and prior military experience coupled with a firm understanding of the unregenerate mind has gone a long way to convincing me of the necessity of them. Please read the Psalms and Proverbs again if you disagree with spanking a child.

>> 31 Women are not inferior to men, but God commands them to be in submission to their husbands. Please read Ephesians 5:22-33

>> 34 is interesting. The more I study God's word, the more I realize the probability that whole denominations ( and most that are in them ) are bound for Hell...Catholic or otherwise. God's word is very specific, and those that continue to hold to errors manifest themselves as not being of God. Catholicism is gross error, and just because someone professes Christ does not mean they are His. Genuine biblical fruit is the evidence of the inner working of the Holy Spirit...this can be evident in anyone in any "denomination", but I do not believe God will allow His children to stay in the midst of unbelievers any longer than He wants them to.

>> 39 is similar to 30 in that children are inherently disobedient, especially unbelieving ones, and misbehaving children need a firm but loving hand to guide them. Parents are to bring their children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and not coddle them or let them get away with blatant disobedience. Love is the most important thing in rearing a child, but next comes discipline, IMO.

>> 44 Secular psychology is just that...secular and worldly. There are many truths to be found there, but at the end of the day it claims to be a science, but one that in reality is based on observations and conclusions that are even less substantiated than man's other sciences. Psychology is the most incomplete science that exists IMO, simply because the conclusions and theories drawn from it are not even close to being 100% repeatable. Unlike electricity, one cannot guarantee that a man will behave the exact same way given the exact same set of circumstances...physics and other sciences are far beyond psychology...so why put any trust in it?

>> 45 IMO, mental health issues are the result of sin and the corrupt flesh we live in...anxiety, depression, excitability and the like are proof of it. Manifestations of things like "bipolar", "schizophrenia" and other similarly violent or strange behaviors should be treated the way they were in Jesus day...the result of the spiritual world wreaking havoc on sinners minds...I.e demons.

>> 48 Health issues can and often do happen as a result of chastisement of the believer. Try giving 1 Corinthians 11 a read...very informative. Scripture is the authority, not my word about it.

>> 51 Amazingly, IFB's are on to something. 1 John 2:15 is very explicit: " Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." This passage scared me near to death every time I saw it, considering how disobedient I had become during the 80's and 90's. You'd be surprised how scriptural IFB's are, despite their many errors.

>> 55 This one I actually tend to agree with on their part. The more I read God's word and the more I experience Him, the more I realize that holiness *is* attainable in this life. But it takes complete submission to God's will in our lives and is only attainable by those of God's children who are of full maturity. In other words, I'm not there yet and my belief ( based on Scripture ) is that it can only be done by being in complete harmony with God. The Holy Spirit is infinitely powerful, and discounting holiness for the believer should not be done, IMO. There are many who profess Christ and strive for it, but they use false doctrines such as "Conditional Security" to motivate their adherents to LIVE it. Then there are others who firmly believe that true holiness cannot be achieved in this life, and they hold to "Unconditional Security". If true holiness were impossible, why would the Lord say, " Be ye holy AS I AM HOLY"...it is an exhortation to God's elect children, and the implication throughout Scripture is that it is not only possible, but attainable at some point.

Most of your list I found to be interesting if not DEAD ON in their observations...but it seems as if you may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater in some of your assessments of the IFB's. Not everything they hold to is erroneous, Scripturally.

I really have one question...if you are a "recovering fundamentalist", what exactly is it that you have recovered TO? My recovery is to God's word and it alone...I hope that yours is as well.

May God bless you in the knowledge of His grace and person,

Dave Gilbert.

I am a young, normal, married guy who within the last year found my relationship with God. I found it through a Baptist Church which a good friend introduced me to. At that time I was an exCatholic Athiest. Then I made a huge spiritual leap, and it changed my life. Thankfully God used the church to save me, but now I need some advice about the church.. I have been part of a FIBC for a few months now. I have learned alot there and am beginning to get into a bus ministry thing(talked into it). But like you I cannot help but notice some things That I absolutely need in a church, are missing. Also there a few things that I am having increasing harder time ignoring.

I’ll list them:

1.The absolute need to be separate hurts any idea of community outreach and caring for others(which I want to be part of)
2. I fall asleep reading KJV and am a closet ESV reader.
3. I don’t hate other people for being gay or catholic.
4. My tithes are being used to support a pastor and his family…I would teach, study, and pray with ANYone for free Anytime…When did this become a career? (Tithing is a not so private thing)
5. Our church is small but has several unused buildings that I can’t help but cry thinking of homeless people freezing outside. We own 2 churches (1 unused), camp, and a school (unused)
6. Church is held at 11am and 6 pm so that the entire day is messed up (I’m not saying I don’t want to worship God, but we aren’t gaining points for hours put in to hear someone preach are we?)
7. There is no bible study/discussion, just extra mini preaching services.
8. I really don’t think all black people are hamites and cursed by God.
9. I like contemporary music AND hymns, but we only get hymns
10. they believe Soulwinning (via door knocking) trumps Soulwinning (via serving others)

So I’m in this Church. My family is Roman Catholic. My wife and daughter don’t go with me, but are not against me going there. So what keeps me going to this place that I know is in some ways hindering my walk with Christ? The people there. I have become great friends with some of the people in the church. I left once to try other churches and was kinda talked into coming back to give it another try. Now I am absolutely certain that this church is just another legalistic institution that promotes holding others to the standards of the law. I want to serve God and I want to be Christ like. But How can I leave people who will be hurt by my leaving? I have tried showing different points of view, but if it doesn’t fit in with their view its evil. I don’t want to sound like a pushover, but I generally like making people happy. If I leave I would feel like i’m wounding these people. So what I want from you is pretty much some suggestions.

Steve,
I came across your site while doing some searching and ended up staying for awhile to read through several articles. I grew up Baptist although not IFB. I am the Youth Pastor at a SBC now. I have learned over the years to study the Scriptures on my own instead of blindly following incorrect doctrine that I hear from the pulpit. I have to say that I agree with most of what I have read on this site, even about tithing. My church teaches tithing and although I disagree with it, so far they have not voted me out! I was reading the article on the Romans Road. I agree with the article and the fact that it is a cookie cutter, results oriented approach. I especially like what you said here: "We wonder if it’s truly possible to receive Christ without understanding the full impact of our sin and the process of repentance..." I have a passion for evangelism and one of the first things I taught the youth at my church when I first came on board was how to share their faith. We talked about what the gospel is and what it is not. We talked about how people now a days water down the gospel to keep from offending someone by saying things like "God has a wonderful plan for your life" and "You have a God shaped hole in your heart and only He can fill it" When I hear that, especially from the pulpit, it sets of a rage in me. Without knowing the full impact of sin and saying a magical cookie cutter prayer, can that person truly be saved? It is my mission to teach my church how to share their faith with the true gospel without pushing for results by getting someone to repeat a magic prayer. One things that you said in that article bothered me though. You said "Witnessing is about building relationships and showing who Christ is and deliberately planting seeds." While I agree that we should build relationships with people, witnessing is not just about actions, showing love, or meeting needs. What if the person gets hit by a bus before you ever share the gospel with him so he can know how to be saved? I see a lot of people use the excuse that they are building relationships and will eventually get around to sharing the gospel with someone. Yes, Jesus was relational with those that he talked to but it was not weeks upon weeks of relationship building before He presented the gospel to them. The woman at the well, Nicodemus and the rich young ruler all got the gospel message within a short time of meeting Jesus. It was not days or weeks or months later. Not to mention, what about those people you will never see again? They need to hear the gospel too right? Maybe I took what you said the wrong way, but I am tired of seeing "relationship building" as an excuse to not actually articulate the gospel message. Thanks for your ear!

I am stuck. I've come to the same conclusions as your site as a missionary on the field, supported by IFB churches. Once I was out from under the preaching I grew up with I was able to delve into the Word on my own. I always thought the KJV only, skirt-ist stuff was junk (and never bought into it) but it wasn't until I started searching Scriptures that I figured out the tithing, fear mongering, works-based message, control, manipulation and guilt is so strong, and so wrong. And so much more...the secretive way illegal activities have been covered up and handled "in house" is so wrong. I can't be associated with this, and I've been ordained as a leader!! Its hard to explain the stress of what we've been going through. Being away from the system, on the mission field for 5 years I was able to go back through the experiences of growing up in the system and started to slowly realize how cult-ish it is. I determined I would not start a church like this, and couldn't do so with a clean conscience before God. Why would I entrap the souls of others in this type of a system? This can't be the "church" of the Bible. I started asking others my age in our church (I'm 33), they see it too. The guys that grew up with me in the system, they are starting to see it for what it really is. But the fear of "God'll get you fer leavin' here" and the oppressive loyalty to a man that is literally preached all the time is so stuck in everyone's heads. They are afraid. I am looking for a job, my family needs to get out and we need healing. I love Jesus, He changed my life. I was saved in spite of the system. There's so much more...thanks for this site. I'm glad to see others have come to similar conclusions and that what God has been showing me is not just me "backsliding" or that I'm crazy. I know I'm closer to Jesus than ever, and that's the problem. I no longer fit into the mold. I cannot be loyal to a man or a system, only Christ. Always only C hrist.

Looking forward to the freedom that will come with this transition. Thanks again for your ministry. It is powerful and very needed. You can publish this if you need to, I've left most of the "incriminating" evidence off as I am still supported as a missionary by 70+ IFB groups. Not for long. Just please leave off my name and address.

God bless!
Nick

Thank you for your most supportive website. It's essential that you exist.
I've been judged as being judgemental for writing this short story/poem, simply for the motive of defending the vulnerable, & taking a stand for those victims suffering, or who have suffered at the hands of 'spiritual abuse', who are sadly not able to fight for themselves.
Please feel free to include this on your site. (Obviously with Copyright.)
Many thanks. I trust this finds you well. x

Who Would Like To Now Confess?

Jeanny lost in emptiness.
Heading nowhere to rid her mess.
Hatred in the world, but promise on the board;
‘Trust, & find peace in the Lord.’
“The Spirit is alive – amen!
Here in ‘the body’ everyone finds rest.
Jesus died so we can live.
Who would like to now confess?”

Jeanny leaps up from her chair,
Saved by her ‘salvation prayer.’
“This is your new family –
welcome to a life set free.”
“The Spirit is alive – amen!
Here in ‘the body’ everyone finds rest.
No going back, this is where you belong.
Live your life in faithfulness.”

“Pastor Sam will speak today.
Trust in what he has to say.
A righteous man will speak no wrong.
Doubt him, & your faith is gone.”

He shook his Bible in his firm right hand.
His pale blue suit covered a handsome man.
Assurance in ‘The Word’ & his piercing brown eyes;
“My prosperous plans won’t harm your lives.”
“The Spirit is alive – amen!
Here in ‘the body’ everyone finds rest.
Go in peace, in joy, in love,
& may you all be richly blessed.”

Now Jeanny’s life was never shamed –
kept pure what no man had stained.
Man will be man, of world or of the cloth,
Preaching love or preaching wrath.
‘The Spirit is alive – amen!’
Here in ‘the body’ EVERYONE finds rest?
Free by the law when unconfessed.
By your Lord, you’ve guiltiness.

“Speak of this, you newly saved soul.
Speak of this, ‘they’ still won’t know.
Remember my sermon ‘bout the enemy?
Blame him, don’t blame God or me.”

“Jeanny can’t join us in praise.
Our Sister’s loss, our respect pays.
Suicide, we know is sin.
And sometimes Satan has to win.
We know she was pretty, & we know we all fall.
We know that the holiest sometimes fight God’s call.
So let’s bow our heads in prayer, & let’s try to understand.
And if you could for me, would you bow them in the sand?
‘The Spirit is alive – amen!’
Here in ‘the body’, well . . . . most of us find rest.
Let’s thank God for all our lives,
& let’s thank God for forgiveness.”

No-one feels the sorrow if they’re only getting caught.
Repentance comes when conscience is fought.
“Close your eyes, & you’ll see fear.
Pastor Sam, it’s Jeanny in your ear.
When you dream your nightmares, I’ll be running through your head,
when you recall my downstair’s tightness, & remember how I bled.
When you preach against abortion, I’ll be stood here with your son.
When you preach of sin & caution, God will block you when you run.
When you preach of Hell & torture, it’s waiting here for you.
Your ‘magic prayer’ will falter - words alone won’t get you through.”

“The Spirit is alive – amen!
Here in this body, everyone finds rest.”
Jesus died so we can live.
Who would like to now confess?

Copyright 2014. Debra C. Rufini.

I have been reading this site tonight like FINALLY someone GETS IT!!! I am currently a member of an IFB church, though not the one I grew up in. I grew up in a very large IFB church and attended their Christian school where I was paddled all the time for the most innocent, minor infractions. We were screamed at and I was told all the time how bad I was. But I had a very tender heart as a child and loved God and desired to do right. However after years of being told what a brat I was it became a self-fulfilling prophecy and I no longer desired to do right. Upon graduation I was sent off to Bob Jones University which I actually loved but where after 2 years I was unjustly expelled over something I didn't do. I then came home to my gossiping church. It was at this point I rejected IFB and refused to go to church. My heart was crushed and I was doubting God. My parents kicked me out of the house and refused to talk to me for several years. I started dating a Catholic boy and actually joined the Catholic church for several years. After our marriage and birth of our first child I realized I did not agree with the doctrines of the Catholic church and so left and found a small, friendly IFB church. I began attending and I found the congregation to be very different from my old church yet in some ways...still the same. Still the IFB legalism. The way I was raised has messed with me and the way I think. I find myself struggling to extend grace to my kids. I am really rough and harsh with them. Not physically but with my biting words. I know this isn't right but I fall right back into the patterns that I was raised with. I did reconcile with my parents and everything but the concept of grace is just lost on me. I struggle with my temper and with constant frustration and unhappiness. Then I'm told I must not be saved or else I'd have the "joy of the Lord" and that if I'm not living a "victorious life" its because I haven't allowed "God's strength to be made perfect in my weakness". Anyhow, a wise Christian friend who was raised the same way I was directed me to this site.

I have actually not been going to church very much the past few years. I say its because of having very young children including a newborn but in reality I don't know if I WANT to go there anymore. I have felt that I don't belong for a while now but I'm not sure what to do. I want to KNOW God and I feel I don't. I always feel He is angry with me--my friend tells me this is how she has felt too thanks to our IFB upbringing.

Even my sister who is married to an IFB (though much more liberal) pastor has admitted to me that she struggled with doubts and worry because of our legalistic upbringing. Old IFB friends of ours have accused her of Calvinism because she has shed some of the old way of thinking and now has peace.

I'm rambling. I just wanted to thank you for this site.

read some of these testimonials and everyone has a ring of truth to what is being shared. The dogmas that are drenched in sarcasm is neither a spirit of meekness that is required when we share scriptural tenets. But I have experienced much thru out my whole life that a brief page could not contain. I have studied Jewish and some Hebrew Idiomatic concept of Interpretation on bible passages and many of you are correct even though opinions vary we must perdue in peace with those who have been abused in doing so we show a maturity and genuine care for others which all of us will give an account for everything. All legalism will be judged also and God has not let this slide and If we suffer even for right things then even that is commendable before God. Meaning that God will one day vindicate you in Glory and to do what you have to do to remove yourself from these types of fellowships. The tattoo issue although it was mosaic law it has a principal value, our bodies are God Temple and so we don't desecrate His temple. It is one of those Areas of sin that does not lead unto death like sexual sins etc... I'm going to a IFB church and they are legalistic too in some areas I struggle to with this and I'm strong and opinionated myself not to give a da-- and am also considering leaving because there's other things that are not Kosher and I spent 30+ years overcoming dominance and entitlement posturing then mixing God into the equation is a raping of ones soul! Satan loves these abuse stuff and with pride so it lifts up those I any position. Baptist will always be somewhat judgmental and legalistic to some degree or another. But they aren't the only ones doing it. That's why God said they have a greater condemnation coming to them. God never forgets anything but it seems as if these people act like they will receive a greater commendation which is just the opposite! In the Spirit of the law we obey, not the letter of the Law which is legalism. The Law of Christ And v.s the Mosaic Laws which should be respected and not totally dismissed and throw out its principals. We are under grace but not a license to sin or cause our brethren or sister to stumble either so we weigh everything before God to see if He approves, and remember what is not done in faith it is sin, faith that has it's instructions rooted in the Scriptures! God bless and I hope this helps someone. KM

Thank you for this site. I unfortunately just saw a link on Facebook to an article about a pastor in CA who was celebrating the tragedy in Orlando (http://the-daily.buzz/preacher-orlando-deaths/?utm_content=inf_10_1163_2&tse_id=INF_492c4f00358211e69519013b248da655). I immediately thought, "I bet this is going to turn out to be an IFB church." A quick lookup on the church's home page confirmed it - http://www.veritybaptist.com/index.html.

It's probably both sad and good that I recognized the IFB mentality right away. My family & I unknowingly ended up in one in MD for about 2 years after a frustrating search for a church that didn't put on a rock concert every Sunday morning and whose median age wasn't 95. We found a church that still sang hymns, had many young families, and seemingly a great kids' program.

There were several things that happened over those 2 years that I thought were strange or didn't agree with. Each one by themselves, though, didn't seem like enough for me to "throw a fit" and declare I was leaving, though, and put my family through the drama of another church search when it was hard enough to find this one. After 2 years though, when these things built up and up, and after a "Sunday School" lesson where the pastor said we should never question him in front of our children, and a sermon that was all about why Baptists were right and everyone else was wrong, I had enough. This place felt like a cult, and the whole time it felt like -I- was the one out of place for thinking all these things felt weird or wrong, yet I was the only one that seemed to think so, so wouldn't that make ME the crazy one?

I sat down and put together a list of all the things I remembered from those 2 years. When I look back at the list, reading it all at once, it's almost embarrassing that we stayed there so long when it so clearly (now) sounds like a cult. We recently moved to another part of the state and haven't found another church yet - I almost don't want to, because I'm so weary of the whole thing, but I need to find something for the kids at least. But anyway, I keep this list as a reminder to myself to never EVER go back to an IFB church (I refer to it as "crazy church" now whenever I speak to someone about it). I'm even leery of ANY Baptist churches as a result, even though that might not be fair to them.

Anyway, after we left that IFB church, I discovered this site and so appreciated the many articles that were here at that time. It helped validate that I wasn't the only one who thought this place was a cult and was abusive. And it was so helpful to see others call out many of the patterns I had "sensed" there (though nothing was every really explicitly stated). After I saw the article on Verity Baptist church, I returned here to see if there were any new articles. I see there are some, and I'm looking forward to reading them. I just wanted to say thank you for maintaining this site. I think it's an important one for those having issues in their IFB churches.

If you'd care to see the list I had put together, I'd be happy to share it, although I'm sure with your experience and with running this site, there may not be anything new in there you haven't heard before.

Thanks again, and best wishes to you.

Dear Steve,

I was working on Sunday School material for Romans 8, and was puzzled when I saw the second half of the KJV version of Romans 8:1. I quoted this verse from the NET version, then proceeded to write my own study notes on it, and was happily expounding on the liberating truth from it, then perhaps like a man who is still savoring the sweet taste of the verse, I thought let's go to the KJV version with Strong numbers corresponding to the Greek text to try to squeeze out every bit of its life giving power, and I was shocked to read the part that bursted my bubble.

Though I had already worked out the true meaning of being "in the flesh" in Romans 7:5, that it had nothing to do with falling into sins or temptations, but with being under the dominion of the law, the appearance of this part of Romans 8:1 in the KJV is a definitely killjoy, a reducing of the heaven sent covenant to no more than that of even the most powerful ruler of this world; a fine print that puts doubt into the promise.

Out of disgust I queried the Internet for "why does KJV 8:1 have extra part," and came a link to your article. Then I read your testimony and thought here's another kindred spirit who knows the meaning of Hab 2:4 and Heb 10:38. Like you I had a glimpse of grace through the writing of Max Lucado, especially Six Hours One Friday, but not until almost twenty years later that a friend I met 3 years ago on the Internet, Doug Olsen of myredeemer.org, pointed me to life changing verses that has opened my eyes to true joy unspeakable, those verses that formed his writing on Law vs. Grace.

Since then I have become a prolific writer on my church's website as vacsf.org. Through my writing you may find that we have a common thread of understanding. For decades I used to go to church with a heavy heart, communion Sunday was heavy indeed, especially when the hymn that ends with this lyric: "I gave, I gave my life for thee, What hast thou done for me?" But now, many in my Sunday School class expressed amazement and joy in their Christian walk. They know now that the reality of the non-KJV Romans 8:1 is not just a theology, but a shout from heaven when God took an oath upon his name that it is a trustworthy promise.

Yours in Christ my precious Redeemer,
Nghi Nguyen

I was a member of an IFB church for just over ten years. I started going to the church because at first I felt that it was biblically right and I had a strong desire to serve God. I was young and knew very little about what the bible actually said. For several years I was happy and felt that I was growing. Then I put my kids into the school that was affiliated with the church. Slowly I started feeling oppressed. More and more I started feeling like the traditions of the church were more important that the example that was set by Jesus Christ. By the time I had been in the church for 4 or 5 years I started to feel like I was serving the pastor more than God. Then the abuses of the church became more clear to me. An unmarried woman in her mid-twenties brought before the congregation to be shamed for becoming pregnant out of wedlock. A family ousted from the church for being eccentric (I guess bringing a goat to a nursing home is a bit eccentric) and challenging the pastor. Being told that if I didn’t tithe 10% of my gross income I would not be blessed, and people being called out in front of the church for not following the standards of the church standards and being made an example. When it wasn’t happening to me it was easy to overlook, but over time I started asking “where is the grace?” Then you have the “good ole boys club” mentality of the church. Pastors who went to college together twisting the arms of the congregation to send their children to run-down expensive camps run by their buddy’s. Why would I want to pay $150 to send my kid to a run-down camp for a week where they sleep on the ground and are fed bologna sandwiches? The answer I was told is because they are getting to hear good preaching! Then I wonder why I have to pay for preaching in the first place?
From messages titled “I can’t wait to spank my children” to a pastor that believes that there is a university in Iowa that the folks are “floating around in the air” doing this satanic ritual called “Yoga” because some idiot IFB pastor told him that (He doesn’t question anything a “good man of gawd” says) it started to open my eyes and made me question why I should continue to blindly follow these people. Then the thing with Jack Schaap happened. My pastor was roommates with him in bible college. I started doing more research about the IFB and started seeing that many of the men that preached in the pulpit of my church had been accused of sex crimes and they were covered up. Jack Hyles himself was accused of many abuses and the IFB is modeled after this man in many ways! I then brought my concerns to my pastor. He told me I shouldn’t be reading anything that wasn’t written by a good man of God, like his buddy Dennis Corle or Keith Gomez. Otherwise, I would be led astray. As if reading some material that isn’t IFB approved will be the wrong influence and cause me to sin. It reminded me of how the Catholic Church forbid anyone from reading non-Catholic literature in the 16th century. The following Sunday he preached a message about not reading material on the IFB found on the internet. He used extreme examples of good bible college students who got into the internet and left the holy grail of religion, the IFB, and now they are into Humanism and voodoo.
Shortly after this I decided to leave the church. All my friends were there, and my wife and kids loved the people as well. Our whole lives had revolved around the church for 10 years. I am not the kind of person to just follow someone because I am comfortable there or because it would be difficult to leave. If the church isn’t right, it isn’t right to stay. I have a desire to server God, that’s why I started going there in the first place. That was before I realized they are more interested in their IFB traditions than God.
As soon as I decided to leave and let the pastor know my desire to look at other churches the people who have been our friends for 10 years were discouraged from speaking to us. We are “of the devil” now and will lead the people astray if they have contact with us. I kind of expected this would happen because I had seen it so many times before, but I have to admit that it still hurt. I am glad that I was able to see the light and get my family away from there before it was too late. The people there are blindly following a group of men that discourage critical thinking and use extreme examples to control the minds of the people. People should do their research before jumping into following anyone.

Hey There!

My name is Dave Chew. I am the Sole blogger of a ministry known as Chew on This. I have been blogging since 2010, but my ministry started in 2009 (we just had a 5 year anniversary last may).

Although I never was a part of an IFB church, I did label myself as a Baptist until September 16, 2013.

What I can tell you is that I fell in love with a woman who went to a school that was a part of an IFB Church.

As I was transitioning back to the San Francisco Bay Area, She recommended that I check out that church. I praise God that I politely declined.

I even tried to look for Baptist Churches in my new home, I then called a Baptist Church in Newark and asked about their church. Come to find out it was a IFB church. They told me that they read the KJV and solely that. They were not okay with me reading the ESV, the NIV84 or the NASB. When they said, "we hope to see you here on a Sunday!" I said, "ok, I'll consider", hung up and thought...Yeah right.

After my friendship with the girl that I fell in love with was terminated (which she initiated and was therefore beyond my control), I asked my college group from a baptist church to pray for me as I was recovering from the loss. Several of the current students as well as half of the alumni interceded, but unfortunately, the other half did not support me. Their responses ranged from siding with the other party to accusing me of bringing up a prayer request that fell under the category of Gossip (as interpreted by them). I went on Sabbatical and thought about what God really wanted of me as an Evangelist.

Well, I thought about removing Baptist from my label to see what would happen next. Unfortunately, when I reconnected with some friends, for lack of better term, all hell broke loose! They started getting nasty with me and even tried to get harsh with me by trying to "rebuke" me for things I did not do. (rebuke is in quotation marks because I didn't consider that a rebuke, but as an Abuse of Process, using social media for an approach that is only reserved as a face to face procedure)

It was clear based upon all that that I made the right decision to remove "Baptist" from my label.

I am now considered a Follower of Christ involved in Interdenominational Church Ministry and am glad to be involved in it. Seeing fellow believers from different churches, worshiping God in Spirit, Truth, Song and Prayer!

I am currently on the 4th Season of Chew on This and have released 2 episodes in that season relating to my belief when it comes to IFB Churches. These Episodes are called "No Comprende KJV" (Season Premiere) and "Depends on the Context".

Thank you for taking the time to hear my story, and please feel free to check me out on my website,

chewonthis.webs.com

Peace Out & God Bless!

I'll just call myself Charis.

I am in the middle of a divorce. I am also suspected autistic (I will be formally evaluated this week).

My husband has been into porn and gazing at other women all over the place and being cruel and shallow with me for the entire marriage. Lots of counseling, lots of worksheets. I was always told to forgive, submit, don't be bitter.

I finally couldn't take it anymore. I was at the point that I was on my way out, but not quite out yet. I have no life skills, and I don't communicate well except in writing. We have 2 kids, and he was telling me that I would be filling his quiver with future children and to populate our church, despite my hyperemesis gravidarum, and dangerous births, severe depression, etc.

I was suicidal off and on. No job, home all the time being the "helpmeet."

He raped me.

Apparently, he had one of his "high temptation moments" and "went in to his wife." I was really sick, and depressed, and said "no, no, please no." He said "I'm sorry, I have needs. My temptation is high." The pastor and pastor's wife had us in counselling a day or two after. My husband said in an accusatory tone "she said she felt raped!" All eyes turned to me. The pastor said, "well at least he went to you instead of the porn." The pastor's wife nodded.

I was crushed. And I couldn't tell anyone. That was gossip and spreading a root of bitterness and division in the church, and those who spread division are to be noted and avoided.

I did leave state with the kids to visit family. It was only supposed to be an extended visit, but stuff kept happening to delay it. I was happy for the delays, but irritated and anxious about them too. I was getting in hot water time-wise.

My husband denies all of this on lack of evidence. The pastor sent an awful letter saying I would be subject to church discipline.

I have no evidence against him. It's he-said she-said, and he adopts a silky voice and manner where anyone can see or hear him. He has his church's backing. I am required to return to the state. I still do not have alimony, though I do have child support finally. I will see what the autism eval shows (though I fit it very well, which is why it was suggested). As it is, I don't have skills for living alone independently. He is making sure I am away from every support network and pushing me to call off the divorce. I am terrified. He admits to nothing, and I am stuck.

Other women were dismissed from church positions like nursery for smoking... and it was done quickly. He was into porn and was keeping me pregnant and oppressed and was promoted to deacon and hailed as a model husband and father (hardly with the kids at all).

He took the kids out evangelizing and to abortion clinics.

I know I'm random. I'm just distressed. I'm sorry.

We'll see what happens from here.

I read your website and can tell you from first hand experience how much I agree with you. My mom got involved in an IFB church when I was a child. After a short time, she began telling my dad (who was and is a conservative and respectable Lutheran) that he was a heathen and leading his children astray. He saw the danger of what was happening and tried to keep me away from her church. This leaded to increased violence.

As a child, I was confused. I was forced to start wearing ankle length skirts to school and was no longer allowed to socialize outside of school because my classmates were unsaved. Still, I tried hard to please my mom and the church, including going to Hyles-Anderson College when I graduated. I have completed four years at HAC and have one semester left.

While there, I have seen much that I disagree with. The academics (which were easier than the work I did in high school) were often forsaken and ‘big days’, ‘mission conferences’, and church projects took its place. I stayed anyway, partly due to the tremendous pressure from my family. I can say though that I’m looking forward to leaving. Upon graduation, I will leave for Air Force Basic Training and become and Air Traffic Controller.

I consider myself very lucky because I know that I only have a few more months of the IFB church. I do worry about my brothers. They see constant arguing and even physical fighting between their parents because of differences in beliefs. At 13 and 15, they are constantly told they are rebellious and hateful. They have been the subject of many a sermon. In reality, they are normal teenage boys who are seeing the truth and deciding for themselves what they believe. I just hope they don’t suffer long-term consequences because of the way they were brought up.

I’m in no way saying I’m turning my back on religion as a whole. I love God and believe in Him strongly. I read the Bible (I actually like the KJV because of its poetic language though I’m not opposed to other versions) and pray. I want to lead a clean life. But it hurts to be seen as a ‘heathen’ and a ‘homewrecker’ because of my decisions for the future. Thank you for showing the truth in this group. I hope many are helped by it.

Steve,

I came across your website today and although I have not read everything (and to be honest I'm not sure if I will, no offense) I do appreciate what you are trying to do.

In my life, I grew up in many different churches (my father's job moved us every few years) and thought I had seen a decent cross-section of Independent Baptists (I'm not sure if they qualify for the full acronym.) I was pretty active in my church and my family used the ABEKA curriculum from my 5th grade on through graduation (moving made homeschool an easier option). My mom only wore skirts to church and then normally only the Sunday services (sometimes only the morning service.) To be honest the whole skirt/culotte issue hadn't even been brought to my attention until I went to my youth group to the Bill Rice Ranch. I thought it was odd but it was my only Christian camp experience and it was only for a week each summer so I didn't think anything of it (I was a guy and I was really only disappointed with not being allowed to wear shorts during the summer weather). The first real incident that raised my eyebrow was when one of the members in our youthgroup was docked points in
the weekly music competition because the song he chose ("People Need the Lord" if memory serves but don't quote me on that) was too "contemporary"!

My family is far more "typical American" we went to movies, played in local sports leagues, my family for the longest time had the car radio set to the local country station for most of my youth. In highschool, we were introduced to CCM and started listening that instead.

Then I went to college at Pensacola Christian College. Already the "What to Expect" booklet had me a little on edge. However, I considered PCC the "right-wing" of the Baptist circles so I would just put up with it and "keep my head down" and avoid trouble. PCC was something you could learn to survive if you were willing to although there was much there to disagree with. Having Bible teachers (I was Pastoral Ministries) that were willing to be fairly open even if they still agreed with the school was helpful. One reoccuring issue that you have brought up is the tithing issue and I had at least two teachers (one had been the Dean of Bible in one point of the school's history) that would agree with you.

While there I heard about institutions/churches/etc that would "make PCC look liberal." I almost couldn't believe it. Surely these were some backwoods nuts who didn't know any better...some sort of cult or something. Then I heard more and more stories and couldn't believe what I was hearing. Surely this couldn't be that prevalent.

Then I married someone who had come from just a background. Then after college we moved in with her parents until we could get on our feet post-college. Her parents are all right when you get to know them. Their church blew my mind. Luckily for me the pastor she grew up under and resigned a few months before we arrived and was in the midst of searching for a new one. The one we did get was far better and although I may not agree with him on everything he is a man I can respect and get along with. He actively avoids the dictator/Pope reputation that is prevalent in the circles this church is used to.

Well I don't know if my original intention was to ramble about my background but there it is. I won't take up much more of your time at least in this email except to say I understand where you are coming from and appreciate what you are trying to do. Thank you for your efforts.

A brother in Christ,
Tyler

P.S. feel free to email me back if you so desire to but do not feel obligated.

Just felt compelled to contact you and say thank you. My husband and I are still healing and it makes me sick to my stomach with guilt to even write this, but it helps at the same time. I graduated from an IFB college with honors and was working for a "mega" IFB church, but quit shortly before graduating because of illegal and hypocritical activities I witnessed. Unwilling to leave the denomonation in which I was raised, I accepted a job offer as a teacher in the Northwest. As it was my only available option, due to not having an accredited four year degree, I left home and moved across the country with no friends or family. I had acquaintes there that I had met while becoming the top recruiter for the IFB college during summer tour groups. A few months after I arrived, I broke up with a long-distance, verbally abusive, lying, cheating, but outwardly perfect IFB boyfriend. He threatened and stalked me on social media. During this time, I was encouraged by the pastor of the IFB church who owned the school where I taught to give "Tom" another chance. This same pastor had offered this guy a job. After waking up to the fact that I was miserable and had already given many chances, I declined. A month later, a couple in the church ended up taking me out to dinner with a man who had been coming for about a year. This man recently received assurance of his salvation, previouslu hitting rock bottom and voluntarily returning to Christ. Overnight, he turned his life around and radically started serving the Lord. Every Sunday, he drove the bus and bought treats for all the "bus kids" (what they call children from low-income homes) He also taught a Sunday School class and loved and invested in those kids. I admired him, but thought he was way too good and REAL to be true. We started talking and knew we both liked each other. He felt "unworthy" to be with me (since I was the epitome of perfect IFB-ness). After our first "date", he confessed everything in his life (a little overboard), but unlike any IFB guy I'd ever met, he was completely honest and humble. The only response I had was, "Hey, ever hear of a guy named David? He did some pretty messed up stuff, but God said he was a man after His own heart." This man (my now-husband)'s horrible sin? Being divorced, Since I had a background in IFB, I expected some resistance and judgement, but nothing I couldn't handle. He expected nothing. After all, these people were our friends! They loved him, they said. They called him "Brother" and had him over for Sunday dinner. He was the outcast "visitor" who was just now becoming spiritual (though he had a successful career and was a kind, loyal, compassionate man). Still, he had the irrevequable, un-fixable stain of divorce...as we soon found out. The first day we sat together in church, it began. He was pulled aside and told he needed to check himself and that he was going down a "wrong path". The pastor posted on social media after a very public discussion in which my boyfriend at the time cried openly after being told he couldn't ever be with anyone and could never remarry. We were shunned publicly, blatantly referenced during sermons. I was called into a three hour long meeting with the two male pastors and forced to defend why I was dating someone like "him". They literally said that as my spiritual authority, if I did not cease being with him, they would remove him from all service (he sung in choir, taught Sunday School, ushered, and drove the bus). He was devastated. I was broken. And SO, SO angry. But still, we suffered in silence. We took it out on each other, but smiled publicly through the pain. And, amazingly, in the end, it just drew us closer. Things were brought to a boiling point when I was called in, on a three separate trumped-up, ridiculous charges at "work"...and then fired from my job. No notice. No explanation. Just the assistant pastor, smiling, telling me to gather my things and leave the premises. Immediately." I was 22 years old. No job. No family. Renting a room from a family in the church. A virgin. Naive. Alone. I had done nothing but date a man I loved. Who God loves. By the grace of God, I had a job within two weeks as an Office Manager at a doctor's office. But not even two days after my termination, a vindictive letter stating that I was terminated was circulated to every parent of every child who had said they loved me and who were my friends. It was sent to me by two friends, also mothers of my students, in tears, saying they did not believe it. Though we quietly left the church with a short, professional email explaining we would no longer be able to teach classes and I would no longer be providing the "special music" on Sundays, we still tried to remain polite and amicable with the few people we kept contact with, but no one would speak to us. Three months later, the day before our wedding, my "best friend" who had introduced my husband and I, who was to be my bridesmaid, texted me and backed out. But I t didn't matter then and doesn't matter now. We have God and each other. His family is southern Baptist/Pentacostal and loves me. My family was still warming up to him at the wedding. Both of my sisters still attend the IFB college and basically everyone I've ever known is IFB. It's so hard knowing what happened to us and I fluctuate between rage at the injustice to remnants of guilt at going against the (insane) words from the (abusive) "Men of God" The list of horrors I've encountered at the hands of IFB members goes on and on. But this is the first time I've ever told the full story to anyone but immediate family. I apologize for the ridiculous length, but this was so cathartic. To actually put it into words. My husband and I have the best marriage I could ever have hoped for and dreamed of. The Lord has greatly blessed us financially. And we are attending a Christian Fellowship that breaks every rule I've ever known and yet manages to be more "biblical" than I ever thought possible. Crazy. Anyway, I wanted to say thank you. Thank you for standing up. Thank you for being a voice. I'm sharing this site with my sister, who is currently still trapped at the IFB college and hates every minute of it, but is helpless to go anywhere else. The hardest thing is loving my family who acknowledges everything that is wrong and horrible with IFB, but chooses to remain anyway, because "God hasn't called them anywhere else" sigh. Anyway, thank you again. God bless you!!

reading the testimonies from most of the people on this site has helped me so much. my husband and i were raised in the 'southern' missionary baptist church. his father, Grandfather & uncle were all preachers. my family were church members in the same circles, just a different location. my husband was sunday school teacher for 25+ yrs, my son, a deacon, my daughter was a sunday school teacher and married to a 'preacher'. my brother is a 'preacher'- one with huge amounts of influnence in this group of 'southern' baptists (which also included several churches in maryland as well as tennessee).
our own church was small with 30 or often less, members attending services.... majority of members were late senior citizens.. my husband & son were the first to pick up on the things being 'preached' that did not follow the bible's teachings. it was 'I did this or that" or if something had not gone as the preacher wanted it was ALWAYS the churches fault. we started to notice other things: the preachers would travel in 'packs', there just is no other word for it...

most everthing i have read written by so many people on this site, happened to us..it has been the most horrifying experience of my entire life. i don't expect death to be any worse, and it probably will be a relief. these pitiful excuses for men, & i include my brother & my son_in_law in this, (i will not call them men of GOD, because they are NOT!) have destroyed my family. my daughter is so filled with HATE, she won't have anything to do with us, she has raised her 2 children to hate us. we had not seen her or our 2 grandchildren (now grown) in 10 years!

(until) yesterday, we heard our daughter has ovarian cancer! our son came to tell us yesterday! he said we need to try one more time to see her, at least just to tell her we love her and are deeply concerned for her health. so we went, his wife, 2 children and me & my husband. she wouldn't let us in, yelled and screamed at us, the hate in her eyes was demonic. my husband, myself & our 2 grandkids got back in the vehicle. our son & his wife stayed on the porch telling her why we came and we love her, we're family... son said he refused to be pulled into the 'he saids, she saids' & firmly explained that we were blood, family, we loved her. he said he saw his 'old' sister just for a few seconds, but it quickly passed...

we believe in GOD, and know him personally, as born again believers. i know what is right & what is wrong. it has taken us several years to see exactly how we were being manipulated & used as well as, abused. as the other folks on this site, in telling their expierences, have so aptly described their encounters of abuse & years spent of living under this oppression, we lived thru so much of it too! it is NOT Right! GOD is NOT about that kind of thing! i truly believe, what is coming from behind that pulpit, is what the bible calls the 'abomination of desolation standing in the place it ought not be!'

can i asked the people on this site, "please pray for our daughter as well as her children, please..." pray for us all....

thank you, God Bless all of you

I accepted my Lord and Savior when i was 16. The conviction was great and i had been hearing the gospel preached and finally on a Sunday morning i went forward and ask the Lord to save me. This was not a IFB church. But it was full of people who loved the Lord i have no doubt. It was my girlfriends family church. I didnt grow up in church but my mother and father had good traditional morals and we were taught respect and love for others. I went many years without having teaching being part of church. I married my highschool sweet heart and we moved because i was working construction in the city that was several hours away. We tried several churches at this point and finally ended up in a IFB church.

At that point i was so happy to be in a church that had a discipleship classes and the more you wanted to learn the more classes they had for you. I soaked it up like a sponge. I was learning what i held so important in this life, the life of Christ and how to be a christian in a world that Satan has greatly deceaved. I was far from a fanatic but i am sure there where some who considered me that way. I felt the Lord calling me to preach. So I surrendered and started classes in my church for young men called in the ministry. I was a deacon also. I remember hearing this said many times. To whom much is given much is expected. The more i learned the more i felt the importance of sharing the gospel with the world. And then the other part of the great commission says "teaching". That was what i so much wanted to do.

So again the more learned. It came to the point i started looking at other church groups and people like they didnt have the knowledge i had or Satan had done a good job hiding the truth from those who didnt attend an IFB church. Mind you though i knew that not all IFB churches were alike. Some were more liberal and didnt hold to the proper ways to conduct a proper church. All was fine until there were problems in mine and my wifes marriage. They were subtle problems at first but some how i was caught very off guard and it lead to us separating and eventually divorce. Ultimately she decided she didnt want to be married to me any longer. There is always more to these stories but i dont feel like it applies to what i am sharing at this point. I could blame it all on her but one thing i have learned is there is two sides to every story then there is the truth. Anyway, she didnt want to do counseling with our present pastor. So against my pastors wishes i went to another more liberal IFB church and tried to appease my wife with counseling there. All in all it didnt work out. So we separated and the kids and i still attended our IFB church. I went 6-8 months of trying to do the best I could.

At church everyone was just like normal but outside church people didnt invite us to do things like we always had in the past. It is very difficult to sit in church and feel alone but i did. Ultimately i wound up leaving church. Later i found out the pastor had told the people not to have fellowship with me. I felt like a failure because of the divorce and then an outcast. I tried to marry again to regain my foothold of being a normal family again. We tried for two years and the whole time I just felt weak because i couldnt stay unmarried like the apostle Paul. We went our sperate ways. I had tried to attend church with her all i could think of was how weak i was and a failure. After another failed attempt at trying to live a good life i attempted to take my own life by overdosing on sleeping pills. I woke up the next morning and cried because the Lord didnt take me. But on the same hand he must have something for me then. It was at this point i decided I needed to be back in church with my kids who are still pretty young at this point. So i went before the church again and apologized for leaving and ask them to forgive me and accept me back under the umbrella of protection that you can only have by being a church member. They accepted me back and this time i thought i will not sit alone that i would invite people to my house to fellowship. I remember having a family over one night and how awkward it felt for my friends wife. Here i was doing all the cooking and setting the table. At one point she ask if there was anything she could do and i said I had it but i could still tell it was uncomfortable for them both. Needless to say nothing changed on the fellowship side of things.

I just couldnt take it any longer so i left again. Bare in mind i was one in a handful of single people in the church. The pastor came and saw me after i had shared with the associate pastor that i was considering leaving. he told me then he probably should have had me under church discipline when the kids mother and i seperated. I just couldnt figure that out. I so needed my church family to help me through a very tramadic point in my life. I had lost my wife and my church family and couldnt figure out why it wasnt that way. It took me a few months after the kids mother and i separated to accept that even though its was Gods will for us to be together that she still had free will and it was her choice to not be married to me any longer. What i could not accept was why was i being chastised by my fellow christians and church members. I have left out some stuff that i think had to do with it though. After the divorce i went on depression medicine. That wasnt looked at as being something christians should do.

All this was 15 years ago and it wasnt until i read your article on spiritual abuse that i had ever really considered that maybe there was some stuff wrong at church. We had learned that people who left church and didnt get there lives straight that they would end up on skid row. My kids and i have done ok. Of all the things i know it is that i am a child of God and he hasnt forgotten me. I am not sure how i feel about all your articles. It was so ingrained black was black and white was white. I am attempting to get past this now and hopefully getting back into another church and working with the pastor on these things that the Lord will restore my joy for life.

Thank you

I would like to start by saying I am 15 years old, so I hope that everyone will be kind to me and not say anything that would be extremely hurtful. I would like to hear the truth, but I hope everyone can say their opinions kindly.

I am 15, my father has a PhD in Biblical Languages and neither of my parents came from the IFB movement. My father is first generation Christian, and experimented with many different denominations, before he started attending IFB churches.

I have grown up in the IFB church all my life, I have attended many different IFB churches, and have been exposed to a variety of different 'types' of IFB services.

15 is the age where you question everything, so I'm told, and I've extensively questioned my churches standards and found that I think we are right about almost everything, but often our attitude is not. I took this site as a rebuke to how judgmental we can often be.
But I think there were very unfair and untrue statements made on this site as well. Like that IFB's believe women are inferior to men, and we think Catholics go to hell.

I am a woman, I am a proud member of a wonderful IFB church of about 30 people, and we use an old red hymnal, have a man of God who preaches the truth without shame and compromise, And I've got to say, I found Jesus in the IFB church and I don't want to ever leave.

I personally don't have a problem with contemporary Christian music, though my church does, and I do think most secular music nowadays does not honor God. My church is KJV only, but I am not, and my father is not, and our church is ok with us having a different opinion.

The IFB's I know are all caring, compassionate people. Our church has been a safe place for many recovering from abuse and addictions and the people in our church (who are mostly elderly farmers, and not rich at all) repeatedly sacrifice their time and money to help those in the community who are poor and suffering, and those in the church with medical bills, or other needs. Our church used to be bigger, but some people did not want to attend faithfully so they left.

Our church is so small that our pastor, who is 70, has to work a full time job to support himself, as well as pastor us, since we can't give him a good salary. Our pastor is full of the Holy Spirit and he loves his flock and takes devoted care of us, and makes huge financial and timewise sacrifices to keep that church open.

Our church is a tight knit group of people who love Jesus and each other dearly.
I know some of the things you said about us our true. For example, we do not go to the theater, we don't dance, and we don't drink. But we have Biblical reasons for all of it, and I don't understand why we get so much hate speech for trying to live Godly lives.

I am 15, I am wholeheartedly embracing my church because it is the most wonderful thing in the world. I love our pastor, I love our hymnal, I love the Jesus we worship together (and by the way, we frequently raise our hands during the songs, as well as the sermon). I love the invitations, and I'm glad that I can come to Jesus just as I am, without one plea. I have seen lives transformed out of the gutter, in our church.

As for my future....I want to be IFB forever, I love the church culture we have, because it is so real and close knit and exciting. I plan to get a degree in counseling and EMS medicine and be a missionary to the inner city and help show Jesus's love to people the way my church has shown it to me. I would like to start a shelter where women can have a safe place to recover from drugs and prostitution. As an IFB, I believe Jesus hates sin, but He also loves sinners, and he will take us right where we are and change us. I have friends from many different denominations and I enjoy fellowshipping with them. We definitely do not think the only way to be a Christian is to be IFB.

Anyway, I have said what I wanted...I hope someone reads this an realizes that the IFB's are not bad, or bad people. I love Jesus very much and I am proud to be an IFB and I would gladly answer, or debate, anyone who has questions or things to address.

May God bless you all richly,
Shannon, loved by Jesus

Hi Steve,
I grew up in an IFB church since i was 2 years old. Not only that, but i went to the church's private school and i graduated from there in 2011. So, my entire life has been nothing but indoctrination from the IFB. In 2011, just a few months after i graduated high school , at the age of 18, i got married to my boyfriend of 2 years. ( we now realize we were WAY too young, but both agree that we jumped into marriage as it was the only way our strict IFB parents and church would let us be together, i mean we weren't even allowed to sit on the same couch, go out on a date, or be alone together for even 5 minutes, wouldn't you do anything to get out from under that kind of control? ) Anyways, the first 2 years of our marriage were spent trying to please the church, we served in countless ministries because that's what a Christian young couple should do, we were being completely fake while " serving the Lord " which was really just serving the church, and we were so miserable. We still didn't go on a date because for 1, there weren't many places we would be "allowed" to go, and for 2, all of our free time was spent at church. We were close to divorcing so many times. Long story a little shorter, i became pregnant July 2013, up until that point i really never thought for myself or questioned anything because i was taught to just follow what the IFB said and " obey my authority" , but now i had to think about my child and how i would raise her, and i started realizing here and there things that i didn't agree with anymore and i started thinking for myself, secretly though because i couldn't let anyone at church know because i knew that would mean being attacked and shunned. As a result of morning sickness and other circumstances, we became less faithful in church and dropped our ministries, which resulted in our church " family" treating us like strangers ( big surprise huh?) By the time my daughter was born, we had stopped going to church altogether. I have done quite a lot of research, which is how i happened upon this site. I read one article and found myself agreeing with you, and it's like you came from our ex-church! I have read the majority of your site and find myself agreeing with you. But here's where i keep getting hung up, after living IFB ways for my entire existence and now thinking on my own and reading things like your website that I'd always been taught were so wrong but yet i can't help but agree with... i feel so completely lost and now i don't know what to believe. Can you help me in anyway ? I do know that we will never go to an IFB church again, that we do not agree with their teachings and will not be indoctrinating our daughter with them, and oddly enough, after leaving the IFB , my husband and I have never been happier and we go on dates wherever we please. I hope you will excuse any mistakes as i have typed this on my phone at almost 2 am. I would like to hear back from you, i just feel so lost now and it's a very scary feeling, hoping you can help.
Thank you, Andrea

My wife and I recently left the Methodist Church due to the issue of homosexuality, and wanted to get into a bible taught church. We are currently attending a KJV only church. I have spoken to the pastor about kjv onlyism, and he wants everyone in the church to read of one accord so that they can follow along better, and believes that the KJV is the closest translation to the original texts. I don't disagree with him, and he also says that he is KJV believing, but not KJV bashing, that he is just glad people are studying the Word.

My conflicts appear with bullying/intimidating comments by some of the other believers in the church. When we have prayer evenings, it seems that some of the "elders" use terms like heathen, wrong bible, and other things when they are praying aloud, they are commenting to God about other people, and how they need to join a bible believing church. I thought all churches were bible believing, but some just did not follow their teachings...hence the divide in the Methodist church over homosexuality.

I love this new church, and love the message the pastor preaches. I am a little concerned now that when he ends his prayers and such with how God has given us His perfect and Holy Word. I used to think He meant overall the Word of God as the scriptures in general (not KJV only). I really feel that only a few of the people in the church are diehard KJV onlists, but they are prominent members. I am concerned that this dogma will result in a conflict of me and my family joining or not joining the church, or staying.

Again, I love the messages, which are truthful and edifying, but I don't like the comments of hate and disdain that I hear from some of the prayers of the elders of the church. I want to call it out, but I don't know how. I have talked to the pastor about the KJV...but maybe I should talk to him about the issue of the abusive comments made? I don't even know what to call it, because it seems like for 1 minute the person is praying for other people in their life, then they label them like "the unbelieving and heathen brother, or how foolish everyone is that doesn't come to know God." I really want to be in this church, but remove the dogma of KJV bashing. It seems the Pastor is on board, but how do i get it to be congregational wide known that this is a legalism that interferes with God's plan for salvation and interferes with edification, and spiritual development, and strangles the life of the church?

I come from a very fundamental, "Independent, Bible Believing, Baptist" Church. It is the only type of church I have attended since the day I was saved by Christ on March 24, 2004. As of recently I have come to the conclusion that maybe I didn't understand things as well as I thought. That maybe I never had a right to give unsolicited advice even if I did. That maybe my preferences had more of an affect on my "beliefs" than I thought. That maybe I'm human after all. However, through all this I have not yet questioned the inerrancy of the King James Bible. It is probably because I had the preconceived notion when I was saved that I don't worship a dumb God. By that, I mean how can we in one breath say that God is powerful enough to create everything we know of (and more) and in the next breath say that He couldn't give me a copy of his words. His very words... that is until now.

Even after removing myself from the fundamentalist church, their authority in my life, and its members (actually they did that part for me), I continued reading my King James Bible, daily. I didn't see any reason to stop reading and witnessing just because I didn't belong to the same lunch table of 100 people I sat at for 9 years. I continued to take a lot of notes when reading and because of my amazing memory, studying the Bible still came quite easy for me. In these more recent months I noticed some things I have never noticed before. It took me awhile to share them with anyone, but after mustering up the strength (or audacity, depending on your point of view) I would like to pose three questions to any KJV-only believers and strike up some friendly discussion. Note to the reader: all of the quoted bible verses come straight from a King James, Authorized Version, circa 1611 as found on www.blueletterbible.org.

1) Who are these two Timna's? Are they the same person?

Genesis 36:1-4, 11-12 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom. Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite; And Bashemath Ishmael's daughter, sister of Nebajoth. And Adah bare to Esau Eliphaz; And the sons of Eliphaz were Teman, Omar, Zepho, and Gatam, and Kenaz. And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz Esau's son; and she bare to Eliphaz Amalek: these were the sons of Adah Esau's wife.

Genesis 36:8, 20-22 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom. These are the sons of Seir the Horite, who inhabited the land; Lotan, and Shobal, and Zibeon, and Anah, And Dishon, and Ezer, and Dishan: these are the dukes of the Horites, the children of Seir in the land of Edom. And the children of Lotan were Hori and Hemam; and Lotan's sister was Timna.

If they are, then Timna was Eliphaz's half sister when he took her as a concubine and they had Amalek together. Just mentioning that to make sure I am right in my understanding. My issue in the inerrancy is found here...

1 Chronicles 1:36 The sons of Eliphaz; Teman, and Omar, Zephi, and Gatam, Kenaz, and Timna, and Amalek.

How is Timna both the concubine of Eliphaz AND his son?

2) When did Eliphaz have a son named Korah?

Genesis 36:15-16 These were dukes of the sons of Esau: the sons of Eliphaz the firstborn son of Esau; duke Teman, duke Omar, duke Zepho, duke Kenaz, Duke Korah, duke Gatam, and duke Amalek: these are the dukes that came of Eliphaz in the land of Edom; these were the sons of Adah.

Why didn't the translators include Korah with the first mention of Eliphaz's kids just a few verses earlier?

3) Did Arphaxad really have a son named Cainan who was the one who actually had Salah?

Luke starts with the genealogy of Christ in chapter 3, verse 23 by starting with Him and going backwards up the tree of His "supposed" human lineage. He was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, which was the son of, you get the idea. At verse 35 we see this...

Luke 3:35-36 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

So reversing that order we get: Lamech, Noah, Shem, Arphaxad, Cainan, Salah, Heber, Peleg, Reu, and Serug (using their names as they are in Genesis). Well when we look up that portion of scripture in Genesis we get...

Genesis 11:10-13 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah: And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.

The writer of Genesis says that by the time Arphaxad was 35 he had a kid named Salah. No mention of Cainan anywhere. How could someone closer to the events of Genesis completely miss a member of this family's tree?!

If my incepted assumptions are correct, then the King James Bible isn't completely clear of errors. I mean simply errors within the text itself. I’m not talking about “issues” some people have with the Bible. I am evaluating just the actual, sincere, purity of the King James Bible's letters and words. I believe the whole of God's Word is pure and complete, but it isn't limited to just one book in one language, or more importantly, one's mind. Before I asked God these same three questions I am asking you, I asked Him these four:

1) God how much of the King James Bible do I actually know?

2) How much of the King James Bible do I actually understand?

3) How much more is there to know and understand besides just what is in a King James Bible?

4) Will you have mercy on me and forgive me for being such an idiot?

Sincerely;

Johnathan Celso

People do need a site like this to start to heal, a site that relates the true love of Christ to the sinner. I thank you for letting Christians have an outlet to vent their experiences.

I was saved in the 1980’s, I went from being a Catholic, saved born again, attended a Southern Baptist church and then ended up in an Independent Baptist Church. I was not going to respond here on this site, but I needed to respond in order to have peace with my situation and clear my mind of the past. Many independent churches teach saved by grace but then add on the law as a second blessing. One has to adhere to a strict form of do’s and don’ts in order to please God and be saved per IFC and the church hierarchy. Some of the laws presented are not even scriptural in teaching but pet peeves of whatever pastor they have preaching at the time, If you do not comply or you question the preaching you are marked and the deacons and pastors deny you and your family any association and any guidance, love from the church family. Instead of attending to the flock they ostracize you and your family, slandering you and your children for not agreeing with their interpretation of scripture or questioning the preacher, the preaching statements and comparing them with the scriptures. I was very active in the ministry and did see God work in people’s lives which is all to the glory of God and by God.

In another incident church staff would pick certain children to go on field trips, and award them in the youth group as long as you are in line with their demands and rules, the other teens did not get the outing church fellowship and were separated from the so called good teens, the whole salvation experience is based on keeping the rules and not on the grace of God, for if it were based on grace all would be welcome. When picking a pastor for our church, a few deacons picked the pastors coming in; not the congregation. I know of multiple families that their children left the faith because of the unloving ways of the Pastors and the staff. I even confronted the Pastor one time and asked him, I thought the Shepherd was to gather the sheep and not scatter them. I guess I was then marked; if you say anything you are shunned and labeled as a trouble maker. Many are caught in a web of laws and do not hold on to the scripture which states; For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. They do preach this verse in the pulpit but really do not believe it. Instead of helping people that struggle they mark them and separate themselves from these Christians. They forget Jesus came to call sinners, not the righteous. I have so many sad stories of people leaving the faith because of the non- love presented to them, I even know of a few suicides that could be contributed to people losing hope. What a tragic end all because they were not good enough per IFC.

I am not bitter I am just sad for all the lost years, the toll it took on my family and all the others. The power hungry staff that put their needs over the church body will one day have to give an account to God. Once we had a whole church giving program where people gave up things in their lives to give to the building program, one member, his children needed shoes and he put this need on the back burner to give to the building fund, after all the testimonies of giving, it was announced that the Pastor was taking a trip, a vacation to Israel where was his sacrifice? I have so many stories that I could write, maybe one day I will write them all down, but at this time I just needed to clear some of these events from my soul since they put such a weight on a person. I hope people will read the account here and finally realize that salvation is all of God and nothing we have to do but realize our sin and need for a Savior and accept His FREE gift, and the laws God states he will write upon your heart not list them from a church. The only problem I have now is where to go for fellowship.